I have a few questions...

[IthacaBarrel]

Let me start by stating that I really like Marrone as a head coach so before the jergens crew gets to heated up, I just have a few questions because we are in year 3 here and year 3 seems to be when most offensive coaches feel their systems can really start to take off.. ( leach, Rodriguez, etc)


1. At what point does one ask the question if Marrone and Hackett know how to be productive on offense in the college game.. Is it soon? If so please provide me with a time frame so I know that I am not overeacting or being a dink about it

2. The playmaker and recruiting issue?how long do we have to wait until this shows up as a failure on Marrone's part to recruit one. Are we saying the reason we haven't is because that The deck is so stacked against Marrone at Syracuse that he couldn't possibly have recruited a couple of difference makers at this point in year 3? I want to know so again I am not perceived as an , I am not looking for Reggie bush here, this is the big east

3. Offensive line.. If Adkins and Marrone are offensive line coaches how is that we still can't handle pressure after we were exposed over a year ago, is this a talent or scheme thing, when is this Marrone's issue and not a talent one.. Year 4

4. Nassib... Why can't he connect with a deep ball? He is like 0-15 this year even the dynamic duo of Tim lane and perry Patterson hooked up for a couple. His body of work at best is an average college qb and that is fine but we can and need to do better


5. I hope we start working in anew qb with some zone read type stuff next year for a few series

Like I said, I just have seen these posted for 3 years and its as if people are still speaking as if Marrone just showed up... It's like rich rod, he was an offensive guy and sure his system struggled the first year, improved year two and by year 3 he was scoring points a lot of them at michigan, his defense, his scheme, and his horrible d coordinator cost him his jong.. My point is this, if Marrone was really a good oc or offensive coach for a teaching and scheme point we would be much further along on offense at this point, at least average, it's not just one playmaker. Marrone is a good head coach but he has been really really bad as an oc so far but I guess it may still be too early in year 3 to declare that.

 

[rosconey]

at some point it has to end-otherwise we are just another rutgirls -

g s has had 11 years now and they still give the same excuse about it takes time

you have to wonder whats going to happen when the guru's kids are all gone and morrones are all thats left-man thats a scary thought

 

[chakka3421]

To me lack of effort by the players - personal fouls show lack of player/team leadership. I keep saying I won't miss M Hay next year.

 

[BostonOrange]

Let me start by stating that I really like Marrone as a head coach so before the jergens crew gets to heated up, I just have a few questions because we are in year 3 here and year 3 seems to be when most offensive coaches feel their systems can really start to take off.. ( leach, Rodriguez, etc)

1. At what point does one ask the question if Marrone and Hackett know how to be productive on offense in the college game.. Is it soon? If so please provide me with a time frame so I know that I am not overeacting or being a dink about it

2. The playmaker and recruiting issue?how long do we have to wait until this shows up as a failure on Marrone's part to recruit one. Are we saying the reason we haven't is because that The deck is so stacked against Marrone at Syracuse that he couldn't possibly have recruited a couple of difference makers at this point in year 3? I want to know so again I am not perceived as an , I am not looking for Reggie bush here, this is the big east

3. Offensive line.. If Adkins and Marrone are offensive line coaches how is that we still can't handle pressure after we were exposed over a year ago, is this a talent or scheme thing, when is this Marrone's issue and not a talent one.. Year 4

4. Nassib... Why can't he connect with a deep ball? He is like 0-15 this year even the dynamic duo of Tim lane and perry Patterson hooked up for a couple. His body of work at best is an average college qb and that is fine but we can and need to do better

5. I hope we start working in anew qb with some zone read type stuff next year for a few series

Like I said, I just have seen these posted for 3 years and its as if people are still speaking as if Marrone just showed up... It's like rich rod, he was an offensive guy and sure his system struggled the first year, improved year two and by year 3 he was scoring points a lot of them at michigan, his defense, his scheme, and his horrible d coordinator cost him his jong.. My point is this, if Marrone was really a good oc or offensive coach for a teaching and scheme point we would be much further along on offense at this point, at least average, it's not just one playmaker. Marrone is a good head coach but he has been really really bad as an oc so far but I guess it may still be too early in year 3 to declare that.

1. Right about now...maybe one more year
2. I think he has succeeded in recruiting a large # of guys that can play. interestingly I think he's done significantly better recruiting D than O so far. He has not succeeded in recruiting any transcendent playmakers...but...I'm not sure that is a something that can realistically be criticized.
3. That is my biggest disappointment. O-line is a position than can really be coached up, and I don't feel like we are playing at the level they should be in year 3. On the flip side...it can take 3 years for a HS kid (particularly at the level we are recruiting) to grow into a legit college OL, so maybe i'm being too critical. But I do feel the older guys could have been coached up more.
4. He's a decent college QB. Accurate on the short balls, doesn't make too many horrible mistakes. But, no pocket presence, doesn't make plays with his feet, and misses a lot of deeper balls.
5. Agreed...

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I think we have some decent o line guys that are com in on, I hope hickey can come back

 

[kingottoiii]

I have always believed that in year 3, you will see what you got. Maybe not in terms of Ws and Ls but in scheme and talent. We still have 4 (hopefully 5) games left so we should wait, but as of today I have to say I am disappointed in the O scheme, the D scheme, and the talent. IMO we have waay too many problems right now. That shouldn't be the case.

I like the way Marrone runs the program. I think he is a great CEO for the program. However I think he needs help at recruiting, at OC, and at DC. I think it is safe to say by now that Marrone is not a good recruiter. I have no doubt that guys like Wanny, Shady, or Strong would be bringing in better talent. Marrone has done a great job adding depth and getting a bunch of solid guys. Those guys are important to a program. However he has gotten ZERO playmakers. And he has failed to recruit over any of GRob's guys. This is an issue. We need to get a recruiter on this staff ASAP.

IMO the O system is a mess and won't work. We have heard that this isn't his real system. In which case I say that is asinine. Why not run your goddamn system? Cuz this isn't working. There is no way we would be worse running his system. If our O is still struggling by conference play next year, I am starting a new thread each day to fire Hackett. I will give him till then. I think it is more than fair.

I am not sure how in the hell we will be any better next year on O. The right side of our OL is gone. Neither of them are great players, but the guys replacing them are young and have no experience. It will take them time to get up to speed. Bailey is a solid RB. Do we even have a guy behind him who can handle the job? Chew is solid. Will he be missed? And how in the hell do we replace Provo? It is hard seeing the O any better next year when we lose the few weapons we have and there doesn't seem to be any replacements.

Our D is either really good or really bad. There is no middle ground. And this was the case last year as well. I don't want to hear the youth excuse either because UL is younger on D and they are much better than us. Our D was huge last year at times and was instrumental in getting us to a Bowl. It also was awful at times and cost us a chance at winning a few games. As great as we were vs WV and RU this year, we have been equally bad in the others. I like Shafer a lot. However we need to get off of this roller coaster on D. If this doesn't change by the end of next year, IMO it is time to find a new guy at DC.

Another thing that worries me is whether or not we are ready for the ACC next year. Part of me wonders if staying till 2013 or 2014 isn't better. The BE is mediocre at best. These teams aren't good, and the coaches aren't much better. I give the staff major props for beating what IMO is the best team in the conference. But at the same time we lost to two teams that aren't very good. A good HC should have no problem leading this team to a winning conference record. We have to go 3-1 the rest of the way to get there. If we are struggling so bad against BE talent and BE HCs, what the hell is going to happen when we go to the ACC? If DM has no answers here in the minor leagues, what will happen when we go to the majors?

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Great post king Otto and that is my point as well. Marrone has been really good in so many areas but he has sucked in recruiting and has been just as bad as an oc trying to implement a new system. I agree on shafer as well, it seems that some feel he is a genius but he has also sucked a lot this year, our secondary has been out of position so many times this year it is crazy...

Marrone needs a new scheme on offense, he will never win more than 7-8 games with a well below average offense, and average talent. Bad scheme, average talent not good.

 

[Avatusstone28]

Overall, I think HCDM has done a good job, competing in a mediocre Big East conference. This team would be at the bottom of any other major conference.

I completely agree, in terms of recruiting. We need somebody who can recruit. Marrone needs get some playmakers ASAP.

 

[kingottoiii]

Great post king Otto and that is my point as well. Marrone has been really good in so many areas but he has sucked in recruiting and has been just as bad as an oc trying to implement a new system. I agree on shafer as well, it seems that some feel he is a genius but he has also sucked a lot this year, our secondary has been out of position so many times this year it is crazy...

Marrone needs a new scheme on offense, he will never win more than 7-8 games with a well below average offense, and average talent. Bad scheme, average talent not good.

I don't think he has sucked at recruiting. He has gotten a lot of solid guys. My issue is he has failed to get any impact skill guys on O. Not only that but this upcoming class has zero QBs, one RB, and 1 WR while having 5 LBs. That strategically makes no sense. I like the kids he is bringing in. But if we can't get some impact guys, we will be stuck in the 1999-2004 era. GRob proved we can be much worse than that, but IMO SU should be a better program than that.

 

[OrangePA]

Let me start by stating that I really like Marrone as a head coach so before the jergens crew gets to heated up, I just have a few questions because we are in year 3 here and year 3 seems to be when most offensive coaches feel their systems can really start to take off.. ( leach, Rodriguez, etc)

1. At what point does one ask the question if Marrone and Hackett know how to be productive on offense in the college game.. Is it soon? If so please provide me with a time frame so I know that I am not overeacting or being a dink about it

2. The playmaker and recruiting issue?how long do we have to wait until this shows up as a failure on Marrone's part to recruit one. Are we saying the reason we haven't is because that The deck is so stacked against Marrone at Syracuse that he couldn't possibly have recruited a couple of difference makers at this point in year 3? I want to know so again I am not perceived as an , I am not looking for Reggie bush here, this is the big east

3. Offensive line.. If Adkins and Marrone are offensive line coaches how is that we still can't handle pressure after we were exposed over a year ago, is this a talent or scheme thing, when is this Marrone's issue and not a talent one.. Year 4

4. Nassib... Why can't he connect with a deep ball? He is like 0-15 this year even the dynamic duo of Tim lane and perry Patterson hooked up for a couple. His body of work at best is an average college qb and that is fine but we can and need to do better

5. I hope we start working in anew qb with some zone read type stuff next year for a few series

Like I said, I just have seen these posted for 3 years and its as if people are still speaking as if Marrone just showed up... It's like rich rod, he was an offensive guy and sure his system struggled the first year, improved year two and by year 3 he was scoring points a lot of them at michigan, his defense, his scheme, and his horrible d coordinator cost him his jong.. My point is this, if Marrone was really a good oc or offensive coach for a teaching and scheme point we would be much further along on offense at this point, at least average, it's not just one playmaker. Marrone is a good head coach but he has been really really bad as an oc so far but I guess it may still be too early in year 3 to declare that.

I want a Donnie McPherson, Marvin Graves or Don McNabb - I want an athletic guy who can throw and make the defense pay with his feet when it comes at him in man to man coverage.

I can't believe it's been nearly thirteen years since we've had that kind of guy.

 

[kingottoiii]

I want a Donnie McPherson, Marvin Graves or Don McNabb - I want an athletic guy who can throw and make the defense pay with his feet when it comes at him in man to man coverage.

I can't believe it's been nearly thirteen years since we've had that kind of guy.

I think we were lucky to get one of those guys, let alone 3 (and in succession). I do think we need a duel threat guy. But to expect one of those three isn't realistic.

 

[OrangePA]

I think we were lucky to get one of those guys, let alone 3 (and in succession). I do think we need a duel threat guy. But to expect one of those three isn't realistic.

I hope the ACC and Marrone's appeal will attract one of those guys.

Who knows, maybe Kinder or Hunt or Broyld is that guy.

 

[OrangePA]

I have always believed that in year 3, you will see what you got. Maybe not in terms of Ws and Ls but in scheme and talent. We still have 4 (hopefully 5) games left so we should wait, but as of today I have to say I am disappointed in the O scheme, the D scheme, and the talent. IMO we have waay too many problems right now. That shouldn't be the case.

I like the way Marrone runs the program. I think he is a great CEO for the program. However I think he needs help at recruiting, at OC, and at DC. I think it is safe to say by now that Marrone is not a good recruiter. I have no doubt that guys like Wanny, Shady, or Strong would be bringing in better talent. Marrone has done a great job adding depth and getting a bunch of solid guys. Those guys are important to a program. However he has gotten ZERO playmakers. And he has failed to recruit over any of GRob's guys. This is an issue. We need to get a recruiter on this staff ASAP.

IMO the O system is a mess and won't work. We have heard that this isn't his real system. In which case I say that is asinine. Why not run your goddamn system? Cuz this isn't working. There is no way we would be worse running his system. If our O is still struggling by conference play next year, I am starting a new thread each day to fire Hackett. I will give him till then. I think it is more than fair.

I am not sure how in the hell we will be any better next year on O. The right side of our OL is gone. Neither of them are great players, but the guys replacing them are young and have no experience. It will take them time to get up to speed. Bailey is a solid RB. Do we even have a guy behind him who can handle the job? Chew is solid. Will he be missed? And how in the hell do we replace Provo? It is hard seeing the O any better next year when we lose the few weapons we have and there doesn't seem to be any replacements.

Our D is either really good or really bad. There is no middle ground. And this was the case last year as well. I don't want to hear the youth excuse either because UL is younger on D and they are much better than us. Our D was huge last year at times and was instrumental in getting us to a Bowl. It also was awful at times and cost us a chance at winning a few games. As great as we were vs WV and RU this year, we have been equally bad in the others. I like Shafer a lot. However we need to get off of this roller coaster on D. If this doesn't change by the end of next year, IMO it is time to find a new guy at DC.

Another thing that worries me is whether or not we are ready for the ACC next year. Part of me wonders if staying till 2013 or 2014 isn't better. The BE is mediocre at best. These teams aren't good, and the coaches aren't much better. I give the staff major props for beating what IMO is the best team in the conference. But at the same time we lost to two teams that aren't very good. A good HC should have no problem leading this team to a winning conference record. We have to go 3-1 the rest of the way to get there. If we are struggling so bad against BE talent and BE HCs, what the hell is going to happen when we go to the ACC? If DM has no answers here in the minor leagues, what will happen when we go to the majors?

I have to take issue with the notion that Marrone has proven to be a bad recruiter.

We are 5-3 right now. That's one half the wins Robinson had in four years.

The talent level on this team is on the rise - we are longer and faster than we've been in a long time.

We are still hindered by the lack of wow factor in our facilities and probably the reputation our program developed under Robinson.

Marrone will continue to recruit better as we win more - as the ACC thing gets closer and as the facilities improve.

I'm not worried about Doug Marrone.

 

[kingottoiii]

I have to take issue with the notion that Marrone has proven to be a bad recruiter.

We are 5-3 right now. That's one half the wins Robinson had in four years.

The talent level on this team is on the rise - we are longer and faster than we've been in a long time.

We are still hindered by the lack of wow factor in our facilities and probably the reputation our program developed under Robinson.

Marrone will continue to recruit better as we win more - as the ACC thing gets closer and as the facilities improve.

I'm not worried about Doug Marrone.

I don't think he is a bad recruiter. But he isn't a good recruiter. I think he is great at getting depth guys. I think he is good at evaluating talent. But he has failed to get any impact guys. Maybe the word I should be using is salesman, instead of recruiter. You can argue that Shady is not a good recruiter because the team has a lot of holes and no depth. But he is a hell of a salesman, as he does get some impact guys. Heck you can even argue that GRob was a better salesman. He left Marrone with a lot of holes on this team. But he also was able to sprinkle in some impact guys. I do think that things will improve in time. But a good salesman wouldn't have to wait.

 

[sufandu]

My biggest disappointment has been the offensive line. I was hoping they were going to be a strength this year. As far as recruiting goes I do think it's still to early to tell. Marrone has really only had two classes that he can truly call his own. His first class was done with only a month on the job. Since recruiting is very much about building relationships (even more so for a school that can't use recent success as a pitch) I think last years class was the first where we had a chance to identify targets and start building those relationships early. We may have some gamers on offense. If we do they're freshman, and how much can we really expect from them? There's really only a few freshman every year that have a game breaking type impact for a team and why should we have landed any of them yet? Quadry Ismail didn't see the field on offense until he was a junior (he only returned kicks prior to that). Marvin Harrison was a redshirt sophomore and was the #2 receiver beside senior Shelby Hill. What year did coach Mac land his first offensive star? I just want to encourage patience. Remember the Sack Mac Pack during the 86 season (a team with a losing record that had Donnie McPherson, Michael Owens, Darryl Johnston, Robert Drummond, Rob Moore, Scott Schwedes, Terry Wooden, Markus Paul). We remember all those guys fondly as having great SU and/or NFL careers. If they were so good in '87 how could they have been so bad in '86, especially since so many were upperclassmen? I don't know, but there's probably a lesson we can take from it.

 

[orangepassion]

I am cynical that the ACC will be the elixir to our recruiting. Has BC's recruiting improved so much since they went to the ACC?

 

[orangenirvana]

Lack of adjustments against defenses like Louisville's is disconcerting. But IMO the biggest concern is their difficulty landing quality offensive skill players.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

I really do think we should wait to see what the Marrone recruits really do end up doing before we get into this game after game. The offense was the experienced side of the ball, and the defense needed to be good first anyway, so it's not exactly surprising that the defense has been addressed first. King Otto, you keep saying one RB and no QBs... why do you constantly choose to ignore Smallwood and Broyld in your recruiting posts? Especially considering these are the athletic types you have been railing for.

 

[Czar]

I am cynical that the ACC will be the elixir to our recruiting. Has BC's recruiting improved so much since they went to the ACC?

BC's problem is a terrible AD and being in New England.

 

[EastBayCuse]

We need to keep some perspective - last year the offense could not even manage a shotgun snap. 4 years ago they were painful to watch. The team is making steady progress in the Marrone era, don't throw out the baby with the bath water after a disappointing loss.

 

[cmr27]

It's always fun to repost Mac's early record at times like this. The diehards know it well. Here it is anyway:

1981 6-5-1
1982 2-9
1983 6-5
1984 6-5
1985 7-5 (and a trip to the "Cherry Bowl")

If Mac gets canned in '83 or '84, there is no '87 season because the new coach would have blown it all up to start over. Who knows what happens after that. Mac wasn't showing much at this point in his tenure. I'm not saying Marrone will be as successful but Mac is a textbook case of where patience paid off. So, the answer to your first question is not until the last game this season (at least), and two more years after that, to be reasonable.

Regarding recruiting, we don't know yet if Marrone is a good recruiter. He has not been able to bring in high potential skill position guys yet, a big issue. But the surprise 2010 season gives us enough to go on to wait another two years to find out if he can get it done. He took over a program that many felt was among the worst in D1. He faced issues with finances/facilities that won't be solved until we get to the ACC, if then, and the program's reputation preceeded it on every recruiting visit. Many will call that excuse-making but facts are stubbon things. It's tough to find instant impact players under those conditions and programs in a similar position that improved may have had a local/statewide talent pipeline. You can say that a big name coach could get it done here, but that goes back to the finances issue. RichRod is a bad example because UM has everything SU lacks in spades. He gets held to a higher standard.

That said, I'm not totally making excuses. Marrone knew what he was getting into. No one put a gun to his head to make him take the job. I just think it takes five years before we can demand to see anything resembling consistent progress (emphasis on the word consistent because the kids have made a ton of progress from the G-Rob Era).

A significant percentage of the board (always higher after a loss) wants consistent success. That's understandable. The problem is that if you can Marrone after three years, or four, it makes it that much harder to find a quality guy to replace him. It's like any other job. Who wants to take a job if your boss has a quick trigger for firing people? I think Marrone is going to be highly successful (and already has been) but, even if you disagree, it's in the long-term interests of the program to wait at least two more years to see how this plays out.

 

[longislandcuse]

I don't think he is a bad recruiter. But he isn't a good recruiter. I think he is great at getting depth guys. I think he is good at evaluating talent. But he has failed to get any impact guys. Maybe the word I should be using is salesman, instead of recruiter. You can argue that Shady is not a good recruiter because the team has a lot of holes and no depth. But he is a hell of a salesman, as he does get some impact guys. Heck you can even argue that GRob was a better salesman. He left Marrone with a lot of holes on this team. But he also was able to sprinkle in some impact guys. I do think that things will improve in time. But a good salesman wouldn't have to wait.

Comparing Marrone and Shady is very interesting. Seems like Marrone is very good at getting guys to field a solid team comprised of the non-skill positions all being held down by average to above average players with good depth behind them, but and its a HUGE Kim Kardashian but, we have zero playmakers. Schiano has guys like Huggins/Sanu/Harrison...but nothing else. Not sure which is the better approach as Rutgers doesnt look that bad this year. All I know is ughhhhh!!!!! What I wouldnt give to have guys of Huggins/Sanu/Harrison caliber at our skill positions...I now need to go throw up for being at all jealous of Rutgirls.

 

[rosconey]

shady hires guys who can recruit but cant coach for squat

marrones hires guys who can coach but cant recruit for squat-

you have to some of each to succeed

 

[sufandu]

It's always fun to repost Mac's early record at times like this. The diehards know it well. Here it is anyway:

1981 6-5-1
1982 2-9
1983 6-5
1984 6-5
1985 7-5 (and a trip to the "Cherry Bowl")

If Mac gets canned in '83 or '84, there is no '87 season because the new coach would have blown it all up to start over. Who knows what happens after that. Mac wasn't showing much at this point in his tenure. I'm not saying Marrone will be as successful but Mac is a textbook case of where patience paid off. So, the answer to your first question is not until the last game this season (at least), and two more years after that, to be reasonable.

Regarding recruiting, we don't know yet if Marrone is a good recruiter. He has not been able to bring in high potential skill position guys yet, a big issue. But the surprise 2010 season gives us enough to go on to wait another two years to find out if he can get it done. He took over a program that many felt was among the worst in D1. He faced issues with finances/facilities that won't be solved until we get to the ACC, if then, and the program's reputation preceeded it on every recruiting visit. Many will call that excuse-making but facts are stubbon things. It's tough to find instant impact players under those conditions and programs in a similar position that improved may have had a local/statewide talent pipeline. You can say that a big name coach could get it done here, but that goes back to the finances issue. RichRod is a bad example because UM has everything SU lacks in spades. He gets held to a higher standard.

That said, I'm not totally making excuses. Marrone knew what he was getting into. No one put a gun to his head to make him take the job. I just think it takes five years before we can demand to see anything resembling consistent progress (emphasis on the word consistent because the kids have made a ton of progress from the G-Rob Era).

A significant percentage of the board (always higher after a loss) wants consistent success. That's understandable. The problem is that if you can Marrone after three years, or four, it makes it that much harder to find a quality guy to replace him. It's like any other job. Who wants to take a job if your boss has a quick trigger for firing people? I think Marrone is going to be highly successful (and already has been) but, even if you disagree, it's in the long-term interests of the program to wait at least two more years to see how this plays out.

I think we can put Frank Beamer and VTech in that category as well. I think it was more than 5 years before he started having decent success (I'm too lazy to look it up). I remember when they were an automatic W on the schedule.

 

[longislandcuse]

I think we can put Frank Beamer and VTech in that category as well. I think it was more than 5 years before he started having decent success (I'm too lazy to look it up). I remember when they were an automatic W on the schedule.

You can say that about a million coaches though. Again, I do like Marrone so I am not arguing against him, I just dont get this argument that is used all the time.

Maybe G-Rob just needed a few more years. He was God-awful for his tenure but oo maybe just maybe he leads us to a National Championship this year if still here. (sarcasm) For every coach like Beamer that you pimp these stats, theres probably 50 like G-Rob who actually just flat out...sucked.