I'm Done With the Zone

[Ghost]

Eh, if playing zone means we're going to continually employ shooting guards that can't shoot - well, we should definitely ditch it.

Or at least recruit someone that can play super-duper zone defense in that position.

 

[Ghost]

Agreed but you can't say we have B+ talent compared to who. We have more individual talent than Duke or Arizona, two teams who have seemed to get their ish together.

Injuries, suspensions happen and we've gotten hit hard by that but at some point he proof is in the pudding. We're consistently a contender with a big name school rockin big name recruits and big time facilities. We have one NC and cap our Final 4 runs at one per decade.

The UGA of CBB and JB is turning into Mark Richt.

You think that's true?

 

[tptcuse]

If I may (and no crap to you), Rak needs to smarten the , and stop trying to be the second coming of Marvin "the human eraser" Webster. How much longer does he have to sit his ass on the bench for long stretches with foul trouble before he finally figures out he can't block every GD shot? It's especially important when game after game, Cooney is locked down by the other team's best defender with a dedication that would make Seal Team 6 envious, that we don't have BMK on the floor for 25-30 minutes. Jesus, Mary and Joseph!

I think it is easy to overlook that Christmas swats at every ball. I have been noticing it a lot recently. However, what usually happens to me is that I spend a few seconds lamenting our horrible shooting, shaking my head, cursing, and before I know it, I look up and Rak's got three fouls. :bang:

 

[Full_Rebar]

The zone is "so bad" that SU was able to come back from 10 down (which is suppose to be hard playing zone) and take the lead. However 2 empty trips down the court with horrible shots allowed NCS to go back in the lead. Again, going back and paraphrasing JB, - making shots would solve the "defensive" problems.

This is spot on. When SU took the lead, NC State looked down and two more baskets might have killed them. Instead SU ran two awful possessions and gave them some hope.

 

[Cowtown]

Eh, if playing zone means we're going to continually employ shooting guards that can't shoot - well, we should definitely ditch it.

Or at least recruit someone that can play super-duper zone defense in that position.

Well, remember MCW "left early" ...

 

[longislandcuse]

You think that's true?

Individually, yes. Coaching and cohesion, they are light years ahead of us.

I'm just going player vs player at the respective positions, but with Cooney and Fair playing like they did, I'll probably have to re-evaluate.

 

[Ghost]

I think it is easy to overlook that Christmas swats at every ball. I have been noticing it a lot recently. However, what usually happens to me is that I spend a few seconds lamenting our horrible shooting, shaking my head, cursing, and before I know it, I look up and Rak's got three fouls. :bang:

I still think he's been the victim of some bad calls - even last night, that 4th foul the whistle was blown prior to Christmas making the block, and there was no contact preceding that - soooooo, why on him? I don't know. He needs to stay out of foul trouble though, because Baye is giving us zilch (a little less than that tbh).

 

[Ghost]

Individually, yes. Coaching and cohesion, they are light years ahead of us.

I'm just going player vs player at the respective positions, but with Cooney and Fair playing like they did, I'll probably have to re-evaluate.

Maybe under those circumstances. I see Hood and Parker, and their ability to create their own shots, and their three point shooters and it's almost hard to fathom with how we've been playing of late that we managed to play them close for two games.

Our players (as a whole) ability to create off the bounce for others is shockingly bad.

 

[Cowtown]

I still think he's been the victim of some bad calls - even last night, that 4th foul the whistle was blown prior to Christmas making the block, and there was no contact preceding that - soooooo, why on him? I don't know. He needs to stay out of foul trouble though, because Baye is giving us zilch (a little less than that tbh).

Two things: "Bad calls" all season? If the refs are calling it, stop doing it. Players at this level need to learn to adjust.

Second, and in line with the first point, a fundamental migration occurs in some players when they understand this: you can always get the ball back, and you can always get a basket back, but you can never get a foul back. There's a time for a foul, yes. There comes a time to recognize when a guy/team has made a good play and you're not going to block that shot or make that steal. It comes from learning to think "team/game" rather than "me/this play." So you learn from it, say good play, and get your butt back up the floor to play better. Which you can't do from the bench.

 

[Cowtown]

Our players (as a whole) ability to create off the bounce for others is shockingly bad.

I'm guessing that's the result of the ball being in one player's hands most of the time. And that being said, I know Cooney getting locked down and Rak sitting on the bench coerces a lot more of that than is optimal.

 

[Ghost]

Two things: "Bad calls" all season? If the refs are calling it, stop doing it. Players at this level need to learn to adjust.

Second, and in line with the first point, a fundamental migration occurs in some players when they understand this: you can always get the ball back, and you can always get a basket back, but you can never get a foul back. There's a time for a foul, yes. There comes a time to recognize when a guy/team has made a good play and you're not going to block that shot. So you learn from it, say good play, and get your butt back up the floor to play better. Which you can't do from the bench.

No, he's been able to stay on the court most of the year. Of late, since that Duke loss, he's been having some weak calls go against him. His minutes haven't been out of whack that much regardless - he's still playing about as much as he would normally (w/out foul trouble).

 

[tbonezone]

anyone we face first round will be preparing all week against the zone. open up in MTM!

take advantage of the enemy's unreadiness, make your way by unexpected routes...
sun tzu

 

[Rocco]

The fact that 3rd post ever by "BallHugger" was only liked by "chucks broken hip" says it all...

So now the 2-3 zone is a fail. Wow.

 

[Cowtown]

anyone we face first round will be preparing all week against the zone. open up in MTM!

take advantage of the enemy's unreadiness, make your way by unexpected routes...
sun tzu

Stop right there, man. Literary allusions is in my job description. Knock it off or I'll file a grievance.



edit: but seriously, we could only do that once.

 

[SWC75]

Boeheim didn't run the zone until 1996.

Syracuse's has been a zone team since Roy's Runts. They used to mix it up with a man for man. Now they don't. But they didn't start playing zone in 1996.

 

[OttoMets]

The zone is fine, but I wish we'd do more pressuring up top. We did it a few times last night and it seemed to throw NC State off. Instead of just packing it in, I want to see a more proactive defense. Our guards aren't good enough at the top of the zone to force the bad passes that MCW/Triche could last year. There have been few runouts and fast breaks this year, partially because of the more passive zone than in recent years and partially because Ennis just doesn't run a good break.

You think we should pressure the opponent whose ball-handling is horrendous? Like that'd force turnovers and lead to easy baskets for us?

Crazy talk!

 

[two3zone]

Individually, yes. Coaching and cohesion, they are light years ahead of us. I'm just going player vs player at the respective positions, but with Cooney and Fair playing like they did, I'll probably have to re-evaluate.

Who's our Jabari Parker? Don't think we have anybody close to his talent level.

 

[SBU72]

It's my guess they play m2m when practicing against the "scout O." Also, good zone D is built on m2m principles (by JB's own account), so it's not really that much of a leap - in principle, anyway. The point is that we all recognize something is necessary to change the pace, both physically and mentally. And that really should help get a few more players into the mix. I was saying a month ago they were burned out, and there are a few reasons for that. And this is just IMHO, I know I'm certainly not a Div 1 coach, but I'm thinking along the lines of "doing the same thing over and over, while expecting different results ..."

Why would they play m2m against the scout O? One of the things about playing zone (as observed by the announcers and JB) is that it forces the opposing team to run a zone offense which is different than what they normally run and has far less variations. It forces the other team to adjust. Also while the zone has some m2m principles, it doesn't have them all. If it was so close then more teams would go back and forth. And if the zone has a failure, the coaches make adjustments, just like with any defense. We are constantly reminded that this is now your "tavern league" zone but a complicated defense. Basically, I too would like to see SU vary their defenses along the line of what Louisville does but it ain't going to happen at least the next few years.

 

[TBCuse11]

One of the problems I see with the zone is that it seems to be so complicated to play that it contributes to the lack of depth on the team. How many times do we see a frosh sitting on the bench because they haven't learned the nuances of the defense enough to allow JB to trust them out there.

this is a great point. We have guys like Roberson or BJ rotting away on the pine who could have certainly helped us score more points this year. Whenever JB hangs em up, I feel that Hop will certainly throw in some M2M once in a while.

 

[newmexicuse]

I've had it. Is there a reason we always have to run it? Does it affect the way we recruit? The players we recruit?

I know of all the things talked about tonight this might be low on the totum pole, but I miss seeing man to man Defense.

How can you miss something that we haven't seen.

 

[Quazzum69]

The zone is the problem - JB is too concerned about his players playing the zone perfectly that he ignores what they bring to the other side of the ball on offense. JB has been tricked by incredible defenses the past few years that happened to have competent offensive players. Now, he's become a defensive-minded coach that thinks if the defense is good enough, he will win.

It's pretty clear that SU players' time is limited by their defensive performance. If you're out of position on defense, you get benched. Sure Roberson may give up 4 more points on defense but how many additional points would he provide on offense? Keita is a good defender but provides nothing on offense.