Im glad that TC is such a good D player

[OttoinGrotto]

He isn't.

He'll find Christmas now and again, but for the most part he's just skipping the ball back to the point guard if an open shot isn't available. I'm very surprised by this; I really thought Cooney would demonstrate some more well-rounded skills by this point. It's like he's a guard in name only. Reminiscent of Jason Cipolla and some of those designated shooters/defenders we played years ago.

That's a bummer.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

He isn't.

He'll find Christmas now and again, but for the most part he's just skipping the ball back to the point guard if an open shot isn't available. I'm very surprised by this; I really thought Cooney would demonstrate some more well-rounded skills by this point. It's like he's a guard in name only. Reminiscent of Jason Cipolla and some of those designated shooters/defenders we played years ago.

This concerns me. I hated that play last year. Run like a madman from one corner to the opposite wing - no shot available - immediately pass back to PG. Not a good basketball play. We've all heard about triple threat - this is barely a single threat play. I don't necessarily put this on him, I'm thinking this is a designed offensive (and by offensive I mean it stinks) play from the coach. He needs to slow down and look inside to see if there is anything there, or if he has an opportunity to dribble drive.

 

[OttoMets]

That's a bummer.

I was arguing that Cooney is a better all-around player than McNamara on these pages like two weeks ago. So, yeah, the first two games haven't been encouraging.

 

[Jack Hall]

I think the better option would be for other players on the starting 5 to start making some shots, especially 3s, as well. Having him look over his shoulder at the bench isn't going to take the pressure off, having the PG and others be second and third threats from outside will really help Trevor a lot more. Just my opinion.

No i agree, that would be ideal. But i guess what i was thinking is i dont think TC needs the pressure of being the only option. And imo so far RP has been the second best option and the guy best suited to take some pressure off. If TC needs to sit for a few mins so that RP can come in and drain one or two 3s , so be it. Also i think we will see a lineup of RP, G and TC out there together, with Kaleb out obviously. But yes what you described is very ideal

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I was arguing that Cooney is a better all-around player than McNamara on these pages like two weeks ago. So, yeah, the first two games haven't been encouraging.

Once I can see some televised games I'll be watching for what he does when he receives the pass on the wing. Last season if the shot wasn't immediately there he'd bring the ball down to his shins in a no man's land type maneuver for a second. It's fine if the shot isn't there, we just don't want the set to stall out with a pause like that.

 

[andyw715]

FG%
18% - McC
43% - Roberson (33% 3pt 1-3)
75% - XMass
31% - TC (22% 3pt 2-9)
57% - KJ (100% 3pt 1-1)

50% - G (25% 3pt 1-4)
38% - BJ (33% 3pt 1-3)
40% -Buss (39% 3pt 2-7)
50% - Obbokoh

40% - team

30% - 3pt - team

Not great shooting for the team in general.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

FG%
18% - McC
43% - Roberson (33% 3pt 1-3)
75% - XMass
31% - TC (22% 3pt 2-9)
57% - KJ (100% 3pt 1-1)

50% - G (25% 3pt 1-4)
38% - BJ (33% 3pt 1-3)
40% -Buss (39% 3pt 2-7)
50% - Obbokoh

40% - team

30% - 3pt - team

Not great shooting for the team in general.

#FREERAK

 

[RF2044]

Cooney was 44 for 141 during the entire ACC season last year. But 9 of the 44 came in one game (9 for 12 vs. ND). Take the ND game out and he shot 27% on 129 attempts.

Other performances included:
0-5 vs WF
0-3 vs Duke
1-8 vs GT
2-12 vs Miami
2-12 vs UNC
1-6 vs BC
1-6 vs NCSU
2-10 vs MD

Will he be better in 2014-15? Who knows?

And if you take out the WF game, his percentages improve. Since were discussing the entire ACC season, why would we conveniently leave out games to skew the data? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[tee1222]

I'm just really surprised TC had that nice mid range pull up against yo adrian. Drive, take shots inside 3 point land. We need him to score from all angles, keep the defense honest.

 

[NKR1978]

And if you take out the WF game, his percentages improve. Since were discussing the entire ACC season, why would we conveniently leave out games to skew the data? That doesn't make any sense.

When you have made the argument that TC is a D3 talent, you must do everything you can to back up said ridiculous argument even if that means cherry picking stats.

 

[Orange Barrel]

And if you take out the WF game, his percentages improve. Since were discussing the entire ACC season, why would we conveniently leave out games to skew the data? That doesn't make any sense.

I've never understood this logic either. Waters did it today with this one: Take away Ron Patterson's 4-for-5 shooting against Carleton and the Orange (minus Cooney) is 8-for-24 from 3-point range.
It's like saying, I don't have stats to back up this point, so here are some that I invented.

 

[Townie72]

And if you take out the WF game, his percentages improve. Since were discussing the entire ACC season, why would we conveniently leave out games to skew the data? That doesn't make any sense.

Sure, take out both the best and the worst performances in the ACC. And that means Cooney was 33 for 117 or 28%.

The fact remains that Cooney was a highly erratic shooter who is was likely to shoot less than 20% on a bunch of shots as he is to light the gym up. Statistically, the problem isn't the mean average, its the shape of the curve with way too many outings at one of the tails of the distribution.

In 2013-14, our lack of inside scoring punch may have justified all this jacking up of 3's. But depending on Cooney is a bad idea, IMO. If Cooney is a bit player in 2014-15, we will probably have a good season because it means we are scoring inside.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Statistically, the problem isn't the mean average, its the shape of the curve with way too many outings at one of the tails of the distribution.

That sums it up.

 

[RF2044]

Sure, take out both the best and the worst performances in the ACC. And that means Cooney was 33 for 117 or 28%.

The fact remains that Cooney was a highly erratic shooter who is was likely to shoot less than 20% on a bunch of shots as he is to light the gym up. Statistically, the problem isn't the mean average, its the shape of the curve with way too many outings at one of the tails of the distribution.

In 2013-14, our lack of inside scoring punch may have justified all this jacking up of 3's. But depending on Cooney is a bad idea, IMO. If Cooney is a bit player in 2014-15, we will probably have a good season because it means we are scoring inside.

There are an alarming number of truisms in your post. The real issue was that the team offensive concept was flawed as a function of its individual parts, and that impacted the overall offensive production. Cooney's inconsistency was a part of that, but it wasn't the only reason and it certainly wasn't a function of him being incapable. Nobody disputes that Cooney was inconsistent, nor that his performance tapered off over the course of last season. Categorizing him as D2 caliber is absurd, as is suggesting that he can't shoot.

Cooney's mean average, as you point out, was not a problem statistically. Shooting ~38% from three is beyond "not bad," it's beyond him being relegated to the bench for not being able to cut it. For perspective, it is actually a very solid average that has only been surpassed by a handful of players in program history.

The reasons why Cooney's shooting dropped off are multi-dimensional, and not all about him--which is what many posters utterly fail to recognize. In no particular order:

• Our offense as a whole was anemic.

• Complimentary shooting was suspect.

• Our senior--who'd lit it up from three the previous year--dropped to a tremendously pedestrian 28% his senior year. That compromised the offense spacing the floor / making the defense pay for overplaying Cooney.

• We had no inside scoring, which also affected floor spacing and enabled defenses to cheat.

• He was also a first time starter, playing in the ACC for the first time, etc.

• I'd be surprised if he struggles in the same way this season. Not saying that it couldn't happen, but it is not what I expect.

Cooney will benefit from having a group of players who can shoot this year. Gbinije, Patterson, Joseph, and even McCullough / Roberson / BJ all have the ability to stretch the floor. Joseph is far more of a penetrator than Ennis was--which means that kick out opportunities will be more abundant this year than they were last year.

Perhaps most importantly, the offense isn't going to rely 100% on him to provide three point shooting due to team personnel limitations. Cooney is a fine athlete, but appears to be more of a complimentary offensive player [just like GMac should have been]. That's great on a team like in 2003, when GMac was the 3rd or 4th scoring option, and torched teams because of it. It was a problem in subsequent years when he got featured a little too much, and his percentages suffered as a function of the extra defensive attention.

Cooney is cut from the same cloth. And his production will demonstrate that this year, with a more potent offense around him to mask his flaws. And much like with the 2012 team, it will be nice to have depth / options -- if a player isn't cutting it this year or has a poor game any given night, JB has more reliable options to turn to, whereas that wasn't the case last year.

What's funny about this thread is that I'm not a Cooney zealot. I root for him equally the same as the rest of the team.

 

[tbonezone]

There are an alarming number of truisms in your post.

however stating that defenses overplay cooney is not one of them.

 

[RF2044]

There are an alarming number of truisms in your post.

however stating that defenses overplay cooney is not one of them.

Are you claiming they didn't?

 

[skurey]

Quit the emotional appeal while ignoring actual data points it's ridiculous. Also want Bees to quit spouting bullcrap then slanking away.

 

[tbonezone]

yep. i saw one player basically chasing last season. dude simply has not proven himself to be a deep threat to warrant extra attention .

 

[orange79]

Quit the emotional appeal while ignoring actual data points it's ridiculous. Also want Bees to quit spouting bullcrap then slanking away.

Some people have jobs, you know...

 

[Ghost]

I've never understood this logic either. Waters did it today with this one: Take away Ron Patterson's 4-for-5 shooting against Carleton and the Orange (minus Cooney) is 8-for-24 from 3-point range.
It's like saying, I don't have stats to back up this point, so here are some that I invented.

I think depending upon how you're using it, it's a perfectly valid point to make in many instances. Sometimes the outlier needs to get gone...

If John Does runs for 111 yards on 20 carries, but his first run of the game was for 89 yards - I think that information matters. The outlier made it seem like a great all-around game, but it's just that - an outlier. The rest of the game the guy was basically falling forward. It provides a different perspective - it's not like you're not seeing the outlier - it's mentioned. From there, draw your own conclusions.

 

[RF2044]

yep. i saw one player basically chasing last season. dude simply has not proven himself to be a deep threat to warrant extra attention .

I mean this in the most respectful manner possible, but if that's your observation yoy're either not paying close enogh attention or have questionable hoops acumen.

 

[AlaskaSU]

yep. i saw one player basically chasing last season. dude simply has not proven himself to be a deep threat to warrant extra attention .

What coach would tell his point guard to drop off Ennis to double Trevor C, or tell his small forward to drop off CJ Fair to double Cooney? ACC coaches obviously said; guard him face up, one on one, and don't worry about him driving.

 

[RF2044]

What coach would tell his point guard to drop off Ennis to double Trevor C, or tell his small forward to drop off CJ Fair to double Cooney? ACC coaches obviously said; guard him face up, one on one, and don't worry about him driving.

You answered your own question. Double teaming is one way to overplay someone, but it isn't the only way--and if people are equating double teaming = the only way teams strategize to overplay someone, they're mistaken. If I'm a coach who isn't worried about Cooney driving, then I'm absolutely coaching his defender to stay up on him, to fight through screens so that you're sticking right with him and not giving him any space to get set, to encroach on him so that he doesn't have room to catch a pass let alone get a clean / uncontested look, to find him in the open floor to challenge and limit his transition three opportunities. I'm also coaching my defender to absolutely do not leave Cooney under any circumstances, including dropping off of him to defend another player on a drive, just to ensure that Cooney doesn't get a kick out pass / clean look.

It was a smart strategy. ACC coaches recognized that neither CJ nor Ennis--the only other players [along with G, to a lesser extent] in the rotation who could hit threes--were volume shooters who were threats to light it up from downtown and stack threes. So they overplayed Cooney to take any clean looks that he didn't get in transition, and they took their chances with CJ / Ennis. And given that we were a slow, isolation-based offense with limited weapons and even fewer shooters last year--it was a good gamble.

If they did the things described above to someone like, say, Devendorf--he'd blow past them off the bounce and make them pay for selling out to take away the three point shot. If they encroached on his space, he'd burn them with his ability to get to the hole and finish on acrobatic drives with either hand. And when they backed off him a little to protect against the drive--that was the space he needed to pop a three.

To date, Cooney hasn't shown the ability to make the opposition pay for overplaying him. And it doesn't have to be taking it all the way to the rim--sometimes the ability to even just take a hard dribble or two is enough to free you up. Which is why many of us were clamoring for him to show that extra dimension to his game. It's tough to be semi-one dimensional at the high major college level unless you do some things really, really, really freaking well. Despite what some would have you believe, Cooney is no slouch--but he also is probably more of a complimentary scorer than a featured weapon.

 

[djcon57]

yep. i saw one player basically chasing last season. dude simply has not proven himself to be a deep threat to warrant extra attention .

It's not even a question. I remember seeing posts last year with this weird "TEAMS PUT THEIR BEST DEFENDER ON COONEY...THEY OVERPLAY HIM" rhetoric.

It just wasn't true. Cooney was guarded by the other teams's SG or SF..yes, many times the other teams SG or SF is their best defender. They overplayed him because he refused to cut with regularity. I never saw him doubled.

 

[jordoo]

If you want to know if teams paid Cooney special attention I would ask how many times Cooney's defender helped off of him to double or help on a driver?