Im here for the officiating takes.

[CuseFaninVT]

There have been 3 or 4, maybe 5 changes to try and address the flopping epidemic in college basketball.

One resulted in the charge half circle in the paint.

There was another change in June of 2012.

NCAA shores up block-charge definition

Another change happened the off season a year later after the awful charge call against Brandon Triche in the Final Four. I believe that was a Michigan player flopping that game.

Then there was another in 2016. See change 4 below.

College basketball's 5 biggest rule changes this season: Things to know

There might be more. Don't have time to research it. My point is that refs continue to call too many blocks as charges, the NCAA keeps changing the rules and the refs still make the same
bad calls. None of those charge calls were legit. At least not to me.

I saw at least one where the offensive player extended his arm. I don't know how to fix it, other than have offensive players fall down like the flopping defensive players do.

 

[Fly Rodder]

The other thing that drives me batty is that a defender is mostly allowed to handcheck an offensive player with the ball, but if an offensive player merely brushes a defender with his elbow, it's a push-off offensive foul (e.g., Tyus Battle's 2nd foul).

 

[AZOrange]

A player getting hyped up taking a charge isn't what basketball is about.

Nope. The nba fixed this crap. NCAA needs to

 

[OttoMets]

I would understand if a player took a swing at him.

I want to take a swing at him.

 

[721Comstock]

That was an awful montage.

Duke fans are all sporting stiffies watching that hoops pjorn.

 

[RF2044]

This isn't a hot take -- or at least, I don't think it is -- but last night's performance by the officiating crew epitomizes everything that's wrong how collegiate games are called.

And going to the monitors every 2 minutes -- awful.

Two years ago, the NCAA made it a point of emphasis to clean this nonsense up, only to have the refs quickly lapse back to old habits by the time conference play rolled around. Enough is enough -- this has to get cleaned up, because it is ruining the game.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I saw at least one where the offensive player extended his arm. I don't know how to fix it, other than have offensive players fall down like the flopping defensive players do.

Well that would be soccer, and that sport sucks too.

 

[Cowtown]

Please. You’re always defending piss poor officiating. Our defense was very good. The refs were absolutely terrible. We should have won by 30.

Have fun telling lies back on your referee forum.

It was meant as a joke. Grow up and get a sense of humor. Did you see that little smiley thing? No? Seems there's lots of stuff you don't notice, such as:
1.) I already stated in another thread I didn't see the game.
2.) I didn't defend the officials in this tread or any other relative to this game. In fact I have offered no comment on their performance. Nor did I say anything about SU's defense.
3.) Getting homered in college hoops happens all the time. I could tell from following on live stats that's what was happening, and already stated in another thread I was pleased with how SU dealt with the adversity.
4.) I don't know of any "referees forums."
5.) "We should have won by 30?" So what? SU Still won. How would their record be any different if they had? Hint: it wouldn't.

Guys like you are funny, always whining about stuff you don't understand. And never will, but you're still always whining.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I think College Basketball Officials get off on calling charges. It really Jones them up to make game changing calls.

 

[Cowtown]

There have been 3 or 4, maybe 5 changes to try and address the flopping epidemic in college basketball.

One resulted in the charge half circle in the paint.

There was another change in June of 2012.

NCAA shores up block-charge definition

Another change happened the off season a year later after the awful charge call against Brandon Triche in the Final Four. I believe that was a Michigan player flopping that game.

Then there was another in 2016. See change 4 below.

College basketball's 5 biggest rule changes this season: Things to know

There might be more. Don't have time to research it. My point is that refs continue to call too many blocks as charges, the NCAA keeps changing the rules and the refs still make the same
bad calls. None of those charge calls were legit. At least not to me.

I understand the game last night was one-sided in the view of most here. I'm not saying it wasn't. I didn't see it, so I'm not speaking to anything that happened there.

Actually, the semi circle under the basket was put there because too often players were trying to draw charge calls in that area, and screwing up the game. Worse, players were getting hurt. Defenders "late to the party" were routinely sliding in under already airborne shooters. Seems nobody understood the shooter has to have a place to land, nor did anyone want to. But gravity always works. Then, they'd get up and bitch that they had position before the contact.

Well, actually "No, you didn't." The interpretation/application in that play was "If you don't have position before the shooter left the floor, you can't have it when he comes down." Players would just say "The refs are wrong" and kept doing it. So then the interpretation became you had to have position "before the shooter commits to leaving the floor."

A problem the semi-circle did create, however, is that the three main leagues NBA, NCAA and FIBA, all have their own rule books (and refs), with different interpretations and applications. People watch NBA and see one interpretation - based on a system in which the stars get every call regardless of the rule - then watch NCAA and see a different rule/interpretation/application.

Another problem is stupid-assed players who think they can go to the basket no matter how many defenders are in the way, and they still think they should "get the call." Another one is very few players, and even very few coaches, understand what legal guarding position (LGP) is. Beat your opponent to the spot, facing him, with both feet on the floor. And then if you've done that, you can move to maintain position. But if you turn your hips to run with the ball handler, you've given up LGP and have to re-establish it through the same process.

I don't know what to do about flopping. That won't change until coaches and players decide it has to stop. For it's about honesty and integrity, and some coaches and players will do anything to win. Well, the refs can't be inside their heads and know their intent. Then the goddam announcers who know nothing about the rule book show the play over and over on slow-mo and point out how the refs are always wrong. The ref gets one look in real time. Period. They can't be perfect, but they can be consistent. Everyone needs to accept that. But no, it's "My team right or wrong, but my team!"

 

[Cowtown]

This isn't a hot take -- or at least, I don't think it is -- but last night's performance by the officiating crew epitomizes everything that's wrong how collegiate games are called.

And going to the monitors every 2 minutes -- awful.

Two years ago, the NCAA made it a point of emphasis to clean this nonsense up, only to have the refs quickly lapse back to old habits by the time conference play rolled around. Enough is enough -- this has to get cleaned up, because it is ruining the game.

It's a problem, alright. Remember when everyone thought video replay would solve all the questionable calls? Well, that didn't happen. In fact, it's made it worse that way.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I understand the game last night was one-sided in the view of most here. I'm not saying it wasn't. I didn't see it, so I'm not speaking to anything that happened there.

Actually, the semi circle under the basket was put there because too often players were trying to draw charge calls in that area, and screwing up the game. Worse, players were getting hurt. Defenders "late to the party" were routinely sliding in under already airborne shooters. Seems nobody understood the shooter has to have a place to land, nor did anyone want to. But gravity always works. Then, they'd get up and bitch that they had position before the contact.

Well, actually "No, you didn't." The interpretation/application in that play was "If you don't have position before the shooter left the floor, you can't have it when he comes down." Players would just say "The refs are wrong" and kept doing it. So then the interpretation became you had to have position "before the shooter commits to leaving the floor."

A problem the semi-circle did create, however, is that the three main leagues NBA, NCAA and FIBA, all have their own rule books (and refs), with different interpretations and applications. People watch NBA and see one interpretation - based on a system in which the stars get every call regardless of the rule - then watch NCAA and see a different rule/interpretation/application.

Another problem is stupid-assed players who think they can go to the basket no matter how many defenders are in the way, and they still think they should "get the call." Another one is very few players, and even very few coaches, understand what legal guarding position (LGP) is. Beat your opponent to the spot, facing him, with both feet on the floor. And then if you've done that, you can move to maintain position. But if you turn your hips to run with the ball handler, you've given up LGP and have to re-establish it through the same process.

I don't know what to do about flopping. That won't change until coaches and players decide it has to stop. For it's about honesty and integrity, and some coaches and players will do anything to win. Well, the refs can't be inside their heads and know their intent. Then the goddam announcers who know nothing about the rule book show the play over and over on slow-mo and point out how the refs are always wrong. The ref gets one look in real time. Period. They can't be perfect, but they can be consistent. Everyone needs to accept that. But no, it's "My team right or wrong, but my team!"

I don’t know anyone who likes charges, but officials. Falling down isn’t defense. It’s flopping. Go play and ref soccer if you think otherwise.

 

[Cowtown]

I don’t know anyone who likes charges, but officials. Falling down isn’t defense. It’s flopping. Go play and ref soccer if you think otherwise.

Feel free to join your local association and show us how it's done.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Feel free to join your local association and show us how it's done.

Or officials could just learn that moving your feet and staying in front of your man without using your hands is really defense instead of making yourself a wall and falling down like you were shot by a cannon when you were barely touched after nut grabbing the offensive player all over the court.:bat:

 

[RF2044]

It's a problem, alright. Remember when everyone thought video replay would solve all the questionable calls? Well, that didn't happen. In fact, it's made it worse that way.

Agree 100%.

I honestly believe that officials get [or at least, used to get] things right 99.5% of the time. Bang-bang plays happening at full game speed, and they were trained to trust their eyes / gut.

The outrage over the .05% of stuff they got wrong has worsened things across many sports. It also takes accountability away from the officials. Not sure? Go to the monitor.

Just slows everything down.

 

[Cusefan0307]

It's a problem, alright. Remember when everyone thought video replay would solve all the questionable calls? Well, that didn't happen. In fact, it's made it worse that way.

All joking aside I appreciate the honesty. I do think their is a disconnect how fans interpret rules and how officals interpret rules

 

[Cowtown]

All joking aside I appreciate the honesty. I do think their is a disconnect how fans interpret rules and how officals interpret rules

RBAY, and yes indeed. One of the major inputs into the problem is the NBA's star system. Stars are how everyone makes money, including the officials, so naturally enough the stars get all the calls. That's not an accident. They have their own rule book and their own refs, and in many instances there's no connection between them and the rest of the basketball world (take the travel call, for instance. ). So when a HS ref makes a call different from what the NBA does, the fans all boo the ref because he's incompetent and stupid, his wife is stupid, his kids are stupid, his ancestors were stupid, ...

Most fans have never seen the inside of a rulebook, and the ones that have generally were researching some one thing or another they were bugged about. And both the NBA and NCAA have announcers who talk rules all the time, and they know bupkis about them. But hey, they're getting paid to talk on TV, so they must be right! I've even heard Jay Bilas, whom I greatly like, be wrong on a rule here and there. But because Jay said so, that's the right way!

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.

 

[Cowtown]

Nope. The nba fixed this crap. NCAA needs to

First, I have a lot of respect for your opinions and positions on a lot of things here. But there are a few things to consider on the difference between how the NBA does things, and the rest of the world's officials.

1.) The NBA is first and foremost a business, and thus is less about basketball than it is making money with a basketball. For those are two different things. That's why their rule book is different from those used in the rest of the world. It's true, and every ref in the NBA knows and understands that. Consider the travel call. Shaquille O'Neal rarely scored without traveling. But if the refs call it, people will stop coming out and paying lots of money for tickets, beers, jackets, jerseys for players who don't have even the skills set every average HS player does.

2.) The NBA has about 75 professional officials, for whom it's their full-time job. It's very easy to get them together regularly and develop consensus on interpretation and application of the rules. The NCAA has about 350 Div I teams, Div II about 270, and div III another 350. Then there is the NAIA, and all the junior colleges. And don't forget about all the women's basketball teams. So the NCAA has thousands of officials, all of whom are part-time and spread all over the country. I'm sure you can see the nature of the difficulty in getting them "all on the same page."

Thanks for "listening."

 

[NineOneSeven]

ESPN posted a guy who took 5 charges in a game in a recent facebook post. Classic.

 

[CsonkaStash]

The UNC vs Michigan last night showed what should be the approach that all referees should take. If the Charge vs Block call is in question lean towards block (like tie goes to the runner). Last night though we had two charges called against us and then they called it on Hughes and Marek when they were just standing there. Certainly seemed like they had an objective last night.

 

[edowd26]

On 47.45% Ohio State possessions... we fouled. Which brings to the forefront, there is a hold on every play in football.


and also in college basketball.


if you're Syracuse.

 

[721Comstock]

On 47.45% Ohio State possessions... we fouled. Which brings to the forefront, there is a hold on every play in football.


and also in college basketball.


if you're Syracuse.

Yeah, that ol' 2-3 zone is KNOWN for all the clutching and grabbing and aggressive hand-checking that goes on all game long.
NOT.

It never ceases to amaze me how the team that ACTUALLY FOULS on every damn D possession isn't the one that gets called for it. Like, ever.

 

[edowd26]

Yeah, that ol' 2-3 zone is KNOWN for all the clutching and grabbing and aggressive hand-checking that goes on all game long.
NOT.

It never ceases to amaze me how the team that ACTUALLY FOULS on every damn D possession isn't the one that gets called for it. Like, ever.

Precisely, I think because we play the zone... Any contact we have on defense gets magnified because we play off the ball more. Its unfair, but officials are idiots.

 

[longislandcuse]

I don’t know anyone who likes charges, but officials. Falling down isn’t defense. It’s flopping. Go play and ref soccer if you think otherwise.

I agree but the alternative is the 50/50 proposition of getting called for a foul when you stand straight up with your hands in the air and the opposing player jumps into you.

Maybe if refs could swallow their whistle on plays with no/minimal contact, we could actually get back to playing basketball.

 

[AZOrange]

First, I have a lot of respect for your opinions and positions on a lot of things here. But there are a few things to consider on the difference between how the NBA does things, and the rest of the world's officials.

1.) The NBA is first and foremost a business, and thus is less about basketball than it is making money with a basketball. For those are two different things. That's why their rule book is different from those used in the rest of the world. It's true, and every ref in the NBA knows and understands that. Consider the travel call. Shaquille O'Neal rarely scored without traveling. But if the refs call it, people will stop coming out and paying lots of money for tickets, beers, jackets, jerseys for players who don't have even the skills set every average HS player does.

2.) The NBA has about 75 professional officials, for whom it's their full-time job. It's very easy to get them together regularly and develop consensus on interpretation and application of the rules. The NCAA has about 350 Div I teams, Div II about 270, and div III another 350. Then there is the NAIA, and all the junior colleges. And don't forget about all the women's basketball teams. So the NCAA has thousands of officials, all of whom are part-time and spread all over the country. I'm sure you can see the nature of the difficulty in getting them "all on the same page."

Thanks for "listening."

I don’t disagree with any of tha