I'm so burnt out on SU football

[TheCusian]

Here's a clue-bat for ya; Baylor does NOT run a Tampa 2. Houston doesn't run a Tampa 2. No decent defense in the P5 runs a Tampa 2.

I hear you. I think you're talking about losing games this year when Dino is setting things up for the future.

You can disagree with the philosophy, but we've not seen it run as it's intended yet. Most everyone has zone in their arsenal. We run it more than others since the idea is that you'll be playing with a lead due to the offense, forcing teams to dink and dunk, forcing QB's into difficult throws or running when they should be throwing due to time and score. How many times have we played with a lead? Flipside, how many times have we been playing down by a bunch (i.e. the opposite of what's optimal)?

I'd suggest that we wait to see if it works when the O is actually clicking before making to harsh a judgement.

 

[MadNY3]

Here's a clue-bat for ya; Baylor does NOT run a Tampa 2. Houston doesn't run a Tampa 2. No decent defense in the P5 runs a Tampa 2.

No one else has an on-campus Dome.

No other major hoops program plays zone exclusively.

No one else was doing the freeze-option in the 1980s.

No one-else gave Donovan McNabb a shot at QB.

So I don't give too much about what the other programs do so much. Heck, if the measuring stick is what everyone else is doing, your talented hustling son should be playing Center somewhere, right?

Have a good Thanksgiving week and hope #72 is well on the road to a strong recovery.

 

[Doc5120]

I haven't read this entire thread... but being a Syracuse football fan is for the loyal diehard Cuse fan. It totally used to ruin my Saturdays. Now I know what to accept and move on with another sunny day in AZ.

you have the sun. Right now I have a foot of snow in my backyard. Thank God college hoops overlaps with the end of the football season!

 

[Cusester]

After considering some of Bcubs's comments, I'm concerned about Steven's future. If Steven was happy in the program and confident that they were headed in the right direction, I don't think his father would be here publicly questioning the staff. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[Doc5120]

I haven't commented at all about the direction of the program and what it will look like next year or in 4 years. I have only stated that the offense has been a statistical disaster this year despite the window dressing of pace of play. That is an factual statement and I don't have to manipulate/cherry pick statistics to prove the same. If you wanna argue that this year's offense is better than last year's offense (not in theory, talking about actual results) I don't think you can make a good case but it is an arguable point.

We are averaging 22.45 points which is 112th in FBS football and the bottom of the barrel for P5 schools and that's at an accelerated pace. From a points per possession basis (adjusting for the 29th toughest schedule to date) we are averaging 1.60 ppp which is 102nd in FBS football. Last year we had the 16th toughest schedule at the end of the season and we averaged and adjusted ppp of 2.13 which was 57th in FBS football. At a much slower pace we still averaged 27.25 points per game in 2015. These specific statistics matter on offense. They are not made up. They remove fandom, emotion and the eye test and give you an objective basis as to where we stand against our own past and more importantly against our peers. I could go on and on with plenty of advanced metrics to prove the depth of my point but it would be like kicking a dead horse at this point.

I fully understand that HCDB needs time to fully implement his system. I am behind that as I believe this program needs consistency in the AD and the staff much more than we have had over the past 15 years. While I don't agree that a faster pace with lesser athletes is a definitive recipe for success I don't mind giving it a try after so many abysmal seasons. Why the hell not? I'll be there to see if the experiment works. It just didn't this year.

And I'm not just an internet fan, I back up my fandom with time, attendance and money and everyone who knows me knows this as I where it on my sleeve. What I don't get from the most fervent backers of HCDB and his offensive scheme is an inability to see that this year it didn't work and to be able to critically analyze that failure. Instead, they lash out and say you're not a real fan and to Have a nice day! and just attack. You're not one of them as you can have actual constructive discourse which I actually appreciate reading and responding.

Anyway, here's to better days moving forward with the football program and for the always nice transition to hoops season moving forward.

Excellent post. That's great analysis that I'm far too lazy to do. I really hope we see an uptick in those stats next year. The one thing I will take into account is Mahoney at qb. He's certainly no Dungey so that's going to hurt a little when you pull those numbers together. Have to pray Dungey is healthy next year, and if not, that whoever is taking snaps is producing a much higher clip than we've seen these last handful of weeks.

 

[CIL]

Here's a clue-bat for ya; Baylor does NOT run a Tampa 2. Houston doesn't run a Tampa 2. No decent defense in the P5 runs a Tampa 2.

I liken a Tampa 2 to a pair of jorts. You don't see Brad Pitt in a pair of jorts, Jimmy Fallon sure doesn't rock them, heck, even Brooks and Dunn shunned them a long time ago.

Like the Tampa 2, jorts fell out of favor 15 years ago. But you have to ask yourself why? They're damn comfortable. They are far more durable than khaki shorts. Hell, is it even fair to call jorts a pair of jorts anymore?

Their are all different kinds of jorts really, and they aren't even created equal. You are probably more of a cargo jorts guy. Their are daisy dukes, cutoffs, etc. , their are even different brands of jorts from Jordache to Duckies.

You know as well as I do you just can't label a pair like you would a good solid denim pair of short pants. I think our defense is the same thing - Tampa 2 in name only, and there's nothing wrong with that. Functional, comfortable, and durable as hell.

 

[PAcuse]

No one else has an on-campus Dome.

No other major hoops program plays zone exclusively.

No one else was doing the freeze-option in the 1980s.

No one-else gave Donovan McNabb a shot at QB.

So I don't give too much about what the other programs do so much. Heck, if the measuring stick is what everyone else is doing, your talented hustling son should be playing Center somewhere, right?

Have a good Thanksgiving week and hope #72 is well on the road to a strong recovery.

Kibbie Dome at the University of Idaho

 

[Chip]

I liken a Tampa 2 to a pair of jorts. You don't see Brad Pitt in a pair of jorts, Jimmy Fallon sure doesn't rock them, heck, even Brooks and Dunn shunned them a long time ago.

Like the Tampa 2, jorts fell out of favor 15 years ago. But you have to ask yourself why? Their damn comfortable. They are far more durable than khaki shorts. Hell, is it even fair to call jorts a pair of jorts anymore?

Their are all different kinds of jorts really, and they aren't even created equal. You are probably more of a cargo jorts guy. Their are daisy dukes, cutoffs, etc. , their are even different brands of jorts from Jordache to Duckies.

You know as well as I do you just can't label a pair like you would a good solid denim pair of short pants. I think our defense is the same thing - Tampa 2 in name only, and there's nothing wrong with that. Functional, comfortable, and durable as hell.

Gold.

 

[cuse309]

Sorry it took so long to reply.

Here's what I got for you:

- While stats are facts, you and I both know that the interpretation of those stats can be bent in whichever way you want
- Prior to Dungey going down our points per game were on par with Lester's year once you remove special teams, OT, and defensive scores
- This system requires a better passer than Lester's. So the drop off between Dungey and Mahoney is far greater (We're getting the same Mahoney, with less running - his strength)
- Points per Possession means less when you get more of them. You can say "man, we have a lot of empty possessions" - but when you get an extra 6 a game, you can afford it against most opposition. It's the same space that will work for us when the offense starts really working (which we've seen glimpses).
- You don't need to remind people here. We know it's not running at full force. We've done a lot without being able to run the ball at all. This idea that you're the only one who sees this and are some kind of lone force of reality is not at all true. It's semi-offensive.
- What you're not getting is that Babers runs a system. And he's running it this year without players suited for it or ready for it (RB/OL specifically). It would be like JAB coaching at a mid-major in year one. Guys with short arms and less athleticism playing the zone wouldn't give anyone the idea of what it could look like with the right type of player. They might be worse on defense with a HoF coach for a while (until they get it and/or get the right guys). This is in play here with both offense and defense.

- And finally - you're using the wrong measuring stick. This is why your are wrong: Perception. It does not matter that you're a "we suck on offense" evangelist shouting in the wind. What we need most is an identity and the perception that we're headed in the right direction. And that is what this year has accomplished. Locker room speech goes viral (check), Biletnekoff finalist ACC 1st team maybe (check), Countless mentions of our QB in the same breath as Watson from Clemson (check), Key win vs a top 25 team (check), best recruiting class since 2001 (check).

I tried liking this more than once. No dice.
Agree 100% Success, this year, is not measured by wins and losses. It's about trajectory, and a vision. Excellent comparison to JB running a 2-3 zone with a mid major.

 

[SoBristol]

The previous staff did and brought in a grad transfer named Drew Allen... and he bombed.

Yes, Shafer brought in Allen so we had grad transfer QB and a promising soph QB (Hunt) that season. Just a little depth at the key position in the game. Hunt took over from Allen, finished the season, and won the bowl game against Minny.

If you have only one serviceable QB, you run a huge risk of injury. We know how that movie plays out. I will take the QB situation in 2013 (bringing in a grad transfer to compete), over how we entered 2014, 2015 or 2016.

 

[MadNY3]

Kibbie Dome at the University of Idaho

Ah, good call.

 

[kirbivore]

It was against Oklahoma

That wasn't the Bob Stoops Sooners. OU went 6-6 that year. Celebration penalty a reflection of P.

 

[Scooch]

I liken a Tampa 2 to a pair of jorts. You don't see Brad Pitt in a pair of jorts, Jimmy Fallon sure doesn't rock them, heck, even Brooks and Dunn shunned them a long time ago.

Like the Tampa 2, jorts fell out of favor 15 years ago. But you have to ask yourself why? They're damn comfortable. They are far more durable than khaki shorts. Hell, is it even fair to call jorts a pair of jorts anymore?

Their are all different kinds of jorts really, and they aren't even created equal. You are probably more of a cargo jorts guy. Their are daisy dukes, cutoffs, etc. , their are even different brands of jorts from Jordache to Duckies.

You know as well as I do you just can't label a pair like you would a good solid denim pair of short pants. I think our defense is the same thing - Tampa 2 in name only, and there's nothing wrong with that. Functional, comfortable, and durable as hell.

I want to make sweet, sweet love to this post.

 

[Millhouse]

No one else has an on-campus Dome.

No other major hoops program plays zone exclusively.

No one else was doing the freeze-option in the 1980s.

No one-else gave Donovan McNabb a shot at QB.

So I don't give too much about what the other programs do so much. Heck, if the measuring stick is what everyone else is doing, your talented hustling son should be playing Center somewhere, right?

Have a good Thanksgiving week and hope #72 is well on the road to a strong recovery.

i think it's pretty silly to ignore what other people are doing.

thankfully we moved from an offense that no one else used to an offense that baylor and tulsa use

 

[Millhouse]

I liken a Tampa 2 to a pair of jorts. You don't see Brad Pitt in a pair of jorts, Jimmy Fallon sure doesn't rock them, heck, even Brooks and Dunn shunned them a long time ago.

Like the Tampa 2, jorts fell out of favor 15 years ago. But you have to ask yourself why? They're damn comfortable. They are far more durable than khaki shorts. Hell, is it even fair to call jorts a pair of jorts anymore?

Their are all different kinds of jorts really, and they aren't even created equal. You are probably more of a cargo jorts guy. Their are daisy dukes, cutoffs, etc. , their are even different brands of jorts from Jordache to Duckies.

You know as well as I do you just can't label a pair like you would a good solid denim pair of short pants. I think our defense is the same thing - Tampa 2 in name only, and there's nothing wrong with that. Functional, comfortable, and durable as hell.

people who wear jorts tend to be fat guys who are never cold due to their fat and who have no aspirations of being appealing to women regardless of what they wear due to their fat. buying two pairs of jorts gets them through the whole year with little effort. they'd be more successful losing weight and buying nicer clothes but that takes a lot of time and time is limited for everyone. that's time that could be spent on first person shooters, eating, or posting on syracusefan.com about how punting to flip the field is great

we play a jort like defense because we have no expectation of ever being good on defense, it's simple to install, can roll it out there against everyone and we get that time back for the thing we care about (trying to get a competitive advantage on offense thanks to the dome)

the 2-3 zone is more like zubaz than jorts. comfortable, no appeal to women, and is not widely worn but unlike jorts, zubaz also happens to be awesome

 

[bcubs9497]

After considering some of Bcubs's comments, I'm concerned about Steven's future. If Steven was happy in the program and confident that they were headed in the right direction, I don't think his father would be here publicly questioning the staff. Hope I'm wrong.

Steven makes up his own mind, that's how his mother and I raised him.

 

[bcubs9497]

Apparently the apologists are out in force. Again, what winning team runs a Tampa 2?

 

[SUbear]

I think it was a mistake to fire Shafer, and I believe that it would be a mistake to somehow lose Babers. I am not a fan of the "revolving door" approach to managing a coaching staff.

Will say this, though, the Tampa 2 crap's gotta go. It's the equivalent of letting someone throw a sht-ton of jabs in order to stop the hay-maker knockout punch.

You and me both, I said earlier this year that I did not like the Tampa 2 and nothing has changed my mind. Any decent QB can and will have career days against that defense.

 

[Millhouse]

Apparently the apologists are out in force. Again, what winning team runs a Tampa 2?

it's worth mentioning that we were 106th in defensive yards per play last year.

 

[TheCusian]

Apparently the apologists are out in force. Again, what winning team runs a Tampa 2?

VaTech runs some and have for a long time. It's not their primary, but it's used a lot.

 

[bcubs9497]

it's worth mentioning that we were 106th in defensive yards per play last year.

100th, so far, this year. HUGE change...

Coupled with this:
"I haven't commented at all about the direction of the program and what it will look like next year or in 4 years. I have only stated that the offense has been a statistical disaster this year despite the window dressing of pace of play. That is an factual statement and I don't have to manipulate/cherry pick statistics to prove the same. If you wanna argue that this year's offense is better than last year's offense (not in theory, talking about actual results) I don't think you can make a good case but it is an arguable point.

We are averaging 22.45 points which is 112th in FBS football and the bottom of the barrel for P5 schools and that's at an accelerated pace. From a points per possession basis (adjusting for the 29th toughest schedule to date) we are averaging 1.60 ppp which is 102nd in FBS football. Last year we had the 16th toughest schedule at the end of the season and we averaged and adjusted ppp of 2.13 which was 57th in FBS football. At a much slower pace we still averaged 27.25 points per game in 2015. These specific statistics matter on offense. They are not made up. They remove fandom, emotion and the eye test and give you an objective basis as to where we stand against our own past and more importantly against our peers. I could go on and on with plenty of advanced metrics to prove the depth of my point but it would be like kicking a dead horse at this point.

I fully understand that HCDB needs time to fully implement his system. I am behind that as I believe this program needs consistency in the AD and the staff much more than we have had over the past 15 years. While I don't agree that a faster pace with lesser athletes is a definitive recipe for success I don't mind giving it a try after so many abysmal seasons. Why the hell not? I'll be there to see if the experiment works. It just didn't this year.

And I'm not just an internet fan, I back up my fandom with time, attendance and money and everyone who knows me knows this as I where it on my sleeve. What I don't get from the most fervent backers of HCDB and his offensive scheme is an inability to see that this year it didn't work and to be able to critically analyze that failure. Instead, they lash out and say you're not a real fan and to Have a nice day! and just attack. You're not one of them as you can have actual constructive discourse which I actually appreciate reading and responding.

Anyway, here's to better days moving forward with the football program and for the always nice transition to hoops season moving forward."

VaTech runs some and have for a long time. It's not their primary, but it's used a lot.

If I remember correctly, Babers said that the reason for the Tampa 2 is because it's allegedly the defensive scheme that gives his offense the most trouble. VT didn't give us too much trouble. And, I'm pretty sure there was a lot more aggressive play on our part, defensively.

 

[SUbear]

Auburn under Gene Chizik won a NC with Cam Newton on offense and a Tampa 2 defense.

The question was consistently, not a one off. You can run a Tampa 2, if you have all star rush ends and line, but in college this is an extremely rare occasion. By citing that team you just contributed to that accessment.

 

[Millhouse]

100th, so far, this year. HUGE change...

If I remember correctly, Babers said that the reason for the Tampa 2 is because it's allegedly the defensive scheme that gives his offense the most trouble. VT didn't give us too much trouble. And, I'm pretty sure there was a lot more aggressive play on our part, defensively.

we're 120th this year. i don't think that's a huge change. it's significant but not huge.

i wouldn't expect babers to be totally honest about why he does it - it's about saving time in my opinion. i don't expect that boeheim would ever say that the 2-3 lets him spend more time with his kids

 

[TheCusian]

100th, so far, this year. HUGE change...

If I remember correctly, Babers said that the reason for the Tampa 2 is because it's allegedly the defensive scheme that gives his offense the most trouble. VT didn't give us too much trouble. And, I'm pretty sure there was a lot more aggressive play on our part, defensively.

I'd bet he knows how to play against it now that they practice against it so much? To me, they looked the most comfortable on both sides of the ball vs VT.

Plus, our results were the outlier vs VT. They are really good on D and have been for a long, long time.

 

[TheCusian]

The offensive and defensive systems are deployed to compliment each other. I'm not sure how much we learn until we see the O really click (game 4, of next year?)

I think Ward's done a nice job - there have been way fewer blown coverages. Rewatch Louisville and then Clemson (actually, don't that's bad for anyones health) - but the players were at least in the right spots. That will get better as the players get more experienced. And as kids recruited for those positions play more.