Is Marrone on the hot (or even warm) seat in 2012?

[tipphill]

How long have we had these fundamental issues in the program and when did the administration discover them? I'm curious because these fundamental issues have gotten a lot of talk the past year.

fundamental issues for me means my usual obsession with facilities and recruiting. if orangepa has others, i would like to know how he see's it. i had concerns about marrone not being able to provide a cohesive team identity and being to rigid but feel better about the approach this year including the closed practices. those 5 losses were a wake up call for him, and his approach(i hope)

 

[GoSU96]

This year would have to be a total disaster for Marrone to be let go. I think he at worst will finish out his contract. Also the chances of SU getting a "name" guy to replace him is slim to none. So there is no rush to get the "hot" guy. The only possibilities I could see are Terry Bowden and RRod. I think both are too tainted to get a HC gig at a big FB school. So IMO both would be willing to consider SU, if we can afford a $2.5 million HC. So if both are successful the next two years, AND Marrone fails (which still is a big ?) then I would check with those guys for their interest. I think RRod would be a good fit. He doesn't recruit studs, he gets guys who fit his system. Which IMO is what you need at SU. We won't out talent other schools. Plus his system on the fast track of the Dome will put up plenty of points.

Uh, isn't Rodriguez at Arizona?

 

[GoSU96]

Have you ever had anything other than lowered expectations? Serious question not trying to bust balls. Based on your posting history I would be surprised is all.

OPA likes being grounded in reality.

100% behind that.

 

[OrangePA]

How long have we had these fundamental issues in the program and when did the administration discover them? I'm curious because these fundamental issues have gotten a lot of talk the past year.

Pretty simple. You know the answer.

It's money and infrastructure.

The issue became a real problem in the mid-1990s.

The administration - not Jake mind you - didn't realize it was a problem, or felt it could not address the problem under Buzz Shaw - there were other more pressing financial issues at the time.

Gross realized the problem after only a few weeks here.

Marrone understands the problem quite well. He has made it clear that unless changes are made there will be another coach here in a few years preaching the same message.

 

[OrangePA]

Have you ever had anything other than lowered expectations? Serious question not trying to bust balls. Based on your posting history I would be surprised is all.

My expectations are grounded in reality.

I think I understand the talent level, the infrastructure and the money available to the program.

I don't try to compare the SU Football Program to that of Nebraska or Va Tech or the SU Basketball Program - because the math just does not compare.

Even in the glory years of McNabb, the math did not compare and neither did the talent level - save for a few truly great players like Harrison, McNabb, Freeney.

I have high expectations for the future, but knowing what I think I know, I am convinced that Marrone needs at least three more years to get the program to a truly competitive level.

So, the notion that Marrone is on the hot seat or should be on the hot - or as you put it based on some source - on the warm seat, is, I think unrealistic and inaccurate.

 

[OrangePA]

fundamental issues for me means my usual obsession with facilities and recruiting. if orangepa has others, i would like to know how he see's it. i had concerns about marrone not being able to provide a cohesive team identity and being to rigid but feel better about the approach this year including the closed practices. those 5 losses were a wake up call for him, and his approach(i hope)

I agree with you - facilities and recruiting in that order because the one follows the other.

 

[orangenirvana]

Marrone understands the problem quite well. He has made it clear that unless changes are made there will be another coach here in a few years preaching the same message.

So in your mind, this "problem" that we all know about and have discussed ad nauseum for years now (a problem that has not improved since the mid-90's and likely never will improve since those in charge either don't want to improve them or have no idea how to go about doing so) gives the current SU football head coach (whoever it may be) complete and total immunity from criticism?

Sounds like a great deal.

 

[GoSU96]

Pretty simple. You know the answer.

It's money and infrastructure.

The issue became a real problem in the mid-1990s.

The administration - not Jake mind you - didn't realize it was a problem, or felt it could not address the problem under Buzz Shaw - there were other more pressing financial issues at the time.

Gross realized the problem after only a few weeks here.

Marrone understands the problem quite well. He has made it clear that unless changes are made there will be another coach here in a few years preaching the same message.

Yep.

 

[rrlbees]

My expectations are grounded in reality.

I think I understand the talent level, the infrastructure and the money available to the program.

I don't try to compare the SU Football Program to that of Nebraska or Va Tech or the SU Basketball Program - because the math just does not compare.

Even in the glory years of McNabb, the math did not compare and neither did the talent level - save for a few truly great players like Harrison, McNabb, Freeney.

I have high expectations for the future, but knowing what I think I know, I am convinced that Marrone needs at least three more years to get the program to a truly competitive level.

So, the notion that Marrone is on the hot seat or should be on the hot - or as you put it based on some source - on the warm seat, is, I think unrealistic and inaccurate.

Yep, I knew the answer. Just curious why some fans now make a big deal out of it when they didn't for years.

 

[xc84]

Read the interviews of past players the P-S has been doing. Each guy says he thinks Marrone is doing the right things. These are guys coached by Pasqualoni and Robinson.

 

[JeremyCuse]

My expectations are grounded in reality.

I think I understand the talent level, the infrastructure and the money available to the program.

I don't try to compare the SU Football Program to that of Nebraska or Va Tech or the SU Basketball Program - because the math just does not compare.

Even in the glory years of McNabb, the math did not compare and neither did the talent level - save for a few truly great players like Harrison, McNabb, Freeney.

I have high expectations for the future, but knowing what I think I know, I am convinced that Marrone needs at least three more years to get the program to a truly competitive level.

So, the notion that Marrone is on the hot seat or should be on the hot - or as you put it based on some source - on the warm seat, is, I think unrealistic and inaccurate.

I agree the money hasnt been equal to the program but Darryl has infused a lot of cash into the program whether it was the new field turf, reconfiguration of Manley, new training rooms, new hot and cold whirlpools, upgraded weightroom and now the additionanl renovations that have either just started or about to start. The lack of facilities and money have done a lot to hurt the SU fball program but it played zero part in SU losing its last 5 games down the stretch last year including two games versus horrendous teams in Uconn and USF. The reality is Doug needs to get to a bowl game this year even in were 6-6 and barely get there. The lack of money and facilities excuse isnt going to last much longer.

 

[OrangePA]

So in your mind, this "problem" that we all know about and have discussed ad nauseum for years now (a problem that has not improved since the mid-90's and likely never will improve since those in charge either don't want to improve them or have no idea how to go about doing so) gives the current SU football head coach (whoever it may be) complete and total immunity from criticism?

Sounds like a great deal.

No.

That's not what I said.

The problems continues to exist.

But, the infrastructure issues are being addressed more effectively now than they were in the early 2000s.

The Administration wants to improve financing and infastructure and is working to toward that end.

I think things are moving in the right direction - but it takes time.

Now, what I have said is a far cry from the coach has "complete and total immunity from criticism."

Of course, your post did not raise the issue of whether he has such immunity.

Your post raised the question of whether he should be fired at some point next year or soon therafter - whether he should be on the hot seat.

For the reasons I have given, he is not on the hot seat and should not be on the hot seat.

 

[tipphill]

Yep, I knew the answer. Just curious why some fans now make a big deal out of it when they didn't for years.

i believe a big deal was made out of it which resulted in the dome,but not until ben s. finally could not compete.(horse was already out of the barn)that same horse escaped again that led to p&d down fall in which we have continued to spiral. i also believe there was concern but no dedicated public forums such as this to express one's concern,except letters to the editor!! this forum (and others like it)provide an excellent mode of communication,and catharsis if you will,to express concerns (that i am sure su monitors), debate, offer creativity. also i am a believer in conflict can be clarifying which is also a benefit here(whew)

 

[orangenirvana]

My expectations are grounded in reality.

I think I understand the talent level, the infrastructure and the money available to the program.

I don't try to compare the SU Football Program to that of Nebraska or Va Tech or the SU Basketball Program - because the math just does not compare.

Even in the glory years of McNabb, the math did not compare and neither did the talent level - save for a few truly great players like Harrison, McNabb, Freeney.

I have high expectations for the future, but knowing what I think I know, I am convinced that Marrone needs at least three more years to get the program to a truly competitive level.

So, the notion that Marrone is on the hot seat or should be on the hot - or as you put it based on some source - on the warm seat, is, I think unrealistic and inaccurate.

That's great. Reality is what everyone's expectations should be grounded in.

That's good that you don't compare SU's football program to Nebraska's or Virginia Tech's. I don't know of anyone here that makes that comparison. I could be wrong.

Do you compare the SU football program to Big East schools like UConn, Cincinnati, Rutgers, Pitt, etc.? Or is that unrealistic also? Because SU finished dead last in that conference in 2011 with a record of 1-6. Is that acceptable? Or is SU at a disadvantage to those schools as well, to the point that it is unrealistic or unfair to expect improvement over a last-place finish?

I'm good with giving Marrone three more years as long as he deserves three more years. He is deserving of that if we see some sort of progress, which I'm optimistic that we will see. But if we don't see that, then he shouldn't be entitled that extension.

You say you have high expectations for the future and that Marrone needs three more years to get the program to a "truly competitive level."

I think this is great and I don't disagree with you at all. But can you provide us with what realistic expectations should look like for 2012, 2013, and 2014?

And what specifically would you consider a "truly competitive level?"

It would be nice to know these things before they happen as opposed to after.

 

[OrangePA]

USF horrendous?

I don't know what team you were watching.

But USF was a vastly superior team to SU in terms of athletic ability - at virtually every position.

I agree that the loss at UConn was tough to take, but the loss occurred because of a few talent issues - we could not KO effectively - could not defend a great return man in Nick Williams and could not stretch the field offensively.

Louisville, Cincy and Pitt were all better than we were - period.

So, I just can't get all that upset with the losses. I was not surprised by them - other than I guess UConn.

 

[JeremyCuse]

USF horrendous?

I don't know what team you were watching.

But USF was a vastly superior team to SU in terms of athletic ability - at virtually every position.

I agree that the loss at UConn was tough to take, but the loss occurred because of a few talent issues - we could not KO effectively - could not defend a great return man in Nick Williams and could not stretch the field offensively.

Louisville, Cincy and Pitt were all better than we were - period.

So, I just can't get all that upset with the losses. I was not surprised by them - other than I guess UConn.

USF was not vastly superior to SU athletically that is BS. We just beat that team the year before in there house were we that overmatched then? USF was horrible last year they won what one big east game and that was against us. They simply ran the same QB draws and options that Uconn ran a week earlier that we couldnt stop.

While our kickoff and kick coverage teams were flat out awful versus Uconn thats not why we lost. We lost because UConn ran the same 4 plays the entire second half and we could stop them. There QB who had D2 talent at best shredded us to pieces on simply QB read plays and the same pass to the TE that they ran over and over and over. We didnt lose that game because of Talent we lost that game because our Defense played its worst game of the year and our D coordinator was outcoached big time by freeking George Deleone.

Cincy started somebody named Munchie Legeaux against us. Do I really need to say more?

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Cincy started somebody named Munchie Legeaux against us. Do I really need to say more?

Munchie had offers from Colorado, KState, Michigan, Mississippi, Oregon, Tennessee, Virginia, and West Virginia.

Need I say more.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Munchie had offers from Colorado, KState, Michigan, Mississippi, Oregon, Tennessee, Virginia, and West Virginia.

Need I say more.

LOL I assume that werent to play QB? He was flat out awful. Rutgers held them to 3 pts the week before our game and blew that team out.

 

[OrangePA]

USF was not vastly superior to SU athletically that is BS. We just beat that team the year before in there house were we that overmatched then? USF was horrible last year they won what one big east game and that was against us. They simply ran the same QB draws and options that Uconn ran a week earlier that we couldnt stop.

While our kickoff and kick coverage teams were flat out awful versus Uconn thats not why we lost. We lost because UConn ran the same 4 plays the entire second half and we could stop them. There QB who had D2 talent at best shredded us to pieces on simply QB read plays and the same pass to the TE that they ran over and over and over. We didnt lose that game because of Talent we lost that game because our Defense played its worst game of the year and our D coordinator was outcoached big time by freeking George Deleone.

Cincy started somebody named Munchie Legeaux against us. Do I really need to say more?

You can say whatever you want - but you're dead wrong.

USF was superior at every position. Their QB was very talented - their WRs were very talented and their lines were bigger, stronger and more athletic than ours. Really not even close. That we were able to squeeze out a win at USF the year before - with seven seniors on defense - was based more on USF mistakes than anything else. And, besides we're talking about the 2011 season not the 2010 season.

And with Cincy, we were just plain beat-up by that team - one that returned all eleven starters on defense from the year before. They had a great RB and a back-up QB who is athletic and who played well. That game was not even close. The Bearcats just plain beat us up.

The UConn game came down to field position. The UConn offense started every drive at nearly mid-field because of their more talented special teams. And because we started in bad field position during every 4th quarter possession we were forced to do what we had to do all season - take 10-15 plays to score. And when a team requires that many plays to score the margin for error is great. The game ended because of an INT while SU was driving to take the lead. Yes, DeLeone is a very good offensive coach who ran a great offense that day, but once again as is usually the case, the talent on the field was the difference. In fact, the talent level on the UConn OL and the UConn defense was superior to the talent levels for SU.

So, yes, it's easy to blame the coach - that's what fans do - but the reality is that we may have been better, over all, than only one of the five teams that beat us - and UConn was a close call.

Heck, just compare the won-loss records.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

LOL I assume that werent to play QB? He was flat out awful. Rutgers held them to 3 pts the week before our game and blew that team out.

Rivals had him as the #12 dual-threat QB from 2010.

 

[JeremyCuse]

You can say whatever you want - but you're dead wrong.

USF was superior at every position. Their QB was very talented - their WRs were very talented and their lines were bigger, stronger and more athletic than ours. Really not even close. That we were able to squeeze out a win at USF the year before - with seven seniors on defense - was based more on USF mistakes than anything else. And, besides we're talking about the 2011 season not the 2010 season.

And with Cincy, we were just plain beat-up by that team - one that returned all eleven starters on defense from the year before. They had a great RB and a back-up QB who is athletic and who played well. That game was not even close. The Bearcats just plain beat us up.

The UConn game came down to field position. The UConn offense started every drive at nearly mid-field because of their more talented special teams. And because we started in bad field position during every 4th quarter possession we were forced to do what we had to do all season - take 10-15 plays to score. And when a team requires that many plays to score the margin for error is great. The game ended because of an INT while SU was driving to take the lead. Yes, DeLeone is a very good offensive coach who ran a great offense that day, but once again as is usually the case, the talent on the field was the difference. In fact, the talent level on the UConn OL and the UConn defense was superior to the talent levels for SU.

So, yes, it's easy to blame the coach - that's what fans do - but the reality is that we may have been better, over all, than only one of the five teams that beat us - and UConn was a close call.

Heck, just compare the won-loss records.

Wow you are delusional. Your description of USF sounds more like FSU in there hey day. If there QB, WR's and Linemen were so good, athletic, and overall superior to us why did they lose every other Big East game, get blown out several times and miss being bowl eligible? Did they lose all those games because of luck? If there talent level is that superior and they finished with the same record how in the world did we beat WVU the top team in the BE?

You also note that Uconn has more overall talent then SU and thats why they won. Really? Didnt have anything to do with the fact our defense could stop a simple option read or that Dyshawn Davis missed more tackles in that game then Doug Hogue in his whole career. Your talking about a Uconn team that lost to Vandy, Iowa State, and Western Michigan, but they have more talent then SU? If thats true this program is in huge trouble. The SU offense marched up and down the field the whole second half but you didnt mention that.

Your last statement says to check the win loss records, fine, three of the teams we lost to down the stretch: Uconn 5-7 South Florida 5-7 Pitt 6-7. Wow a real murders row. If those teams all have superior talent to SU then we are beyond screwed

 

[Bayside44]

One of the few things I do know about sports is that if you are more talented than the guy defending you you can indeed run the same thing over and over because the defender cannot stop it.

USF in 2010 blew a bunch of plays. We should've smoked RU last season but also those guys were a lot bigger than our guys. Strange game and 4 and a half hours we'll never get back.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

So in your mind, this "problem" that we all know about and have discussed ad nauseum for years now (a problem that has not improved since the mid-90's and likely never will improve since those in charge either don't want to improve them or have no idea how to go about doing so) gives the current SU football head coach (whoever it may be) complete and total immunity from criticism?.

That's pretty much how it works. Let me give you an example:

We had a 5 game losing streak when we just needed one win for a bowl. Seems like the coach should be accountable, right?

No, he's not. The reason is because we had less talent than every one of those teams we lost to, and everybody knows that in college football teams with less talent never beat teams with better talent.

But wait - isn't Marrone responsible for the amount of talent on the team and how that talent performs?

No, he's not. Due to the lack of quality facilities and the meager fan support in the Dome, Marrone gets the absolute best talent that he can and bleeds everything he can from the team. If you think we need better talent, blame the lack of commitment in getting better facilities and the fans for not showing up.

But, hang on. We pounded a good WFVU team, and the previous year had enough talent to make a bowl. How come this past season...

Let me stop you there. Marrone got us to a bowl in year 2 because he's a great coach.

OK, so we have a great coach. Doesn't that mean we should have higher expectations for the team's performance?

No, absolutely not. Having high expectations isn't grounded in the reality of all the obstacles that the program faces.

But, our conference isn't exactly a murderer's row. We're not the only team with obstacles. Shouldn't how great Marrone is a coach cancel out those obstacles?

Look, you can't expect our team to compete against the likes of Pitt, Cincy, USF, UCONN, and Rutgers. Not with their talent and tradition.

...I'm so confused.

Yes, you are. You wouldn't be if you were grounded in reality.

 

[JeremyCuse]

One of the few things I do know about sports is that if you are more talented than the guy defending you you can indeed run the same thing over and over because the defender cannot stop it.

USF in 2010 blew a bunch of plays. We should've smoked RU last season but also those guys were a lot bigger than our guys. Strange game and 4 and a half hours we'll never get back.

Versus USC, FSU, OKlahoma ok I agree they can run the same play over and over with that talent. But UConn freeking UConn, come on that QB could barely even pass the ball and wasnt even a D1A QB as far as UConn fans were concerned. We also beat RU the two previous times before that game, I didnt see them being much bigger then us save for maybe the LB core.

 

[JeremyCuse]

That's pretty much how it works. Let me give you an example:

We had a 5 game losing streak when we just needed one win for a bowl. Seems like the coach should be accountable, right?

No, he's not. The reason is because we had less talent than every one of those teams we lost to, and everybody knows that in college football teams with less talent never beat teams with better talent.

But wait - isn't Marrone responsible for the amount of talent on the team and how that talent performs?

No, he's not. Due to the lack of quality facilities and the meager fan support in the Dome, Marrone gets the absolute best talent that he can and bleeds everything he can from the team. If you think we need better talent, blame the lack of commitment in getting better facilities and the fans for not showing up.

But, hang on. We pounded a good WFVU team, and the previous year had enough talent to make a bowl. How come this past season...

Let me stop you there. Marrone got us to a bowl in year 2 because he's a great coach.

OK, so we have a great coach. Doesn't that mean we should have higher expectations for the team's performance?

No, absolutely not. Having high expectations isn't grounded in the reality of all the obstacles that the program faces.

But, our conference isn't exactly a murderer's row. We're not the only team with obstacles. Shouldn't how great Marrone is a coach cancel out those obstacles?

Look, you can't expect our team to compete against the likes of Pitt, Cincy, USF, UCONN, and Rutgers. Not with their talent and tradition.

...I'm so confused.

Yes, you are. You wouldn't be if you were grounded in reality.

Great post, no matter what you say they have an excuse.