Its east to blame the refs in this one

[Cowtown]

I honestly can't stand Jay Wright's style of play--total slop house basketball. That the refs allow it in general is a black mark on college basketball.

It must be something in the water down there. It was almost like playing Pitt. Ochefu and Pinkston were bulldozers.

 

[Orangezoo]

Agreed, the one-and-one is the most asinine, profoundly obtuse rule in the college game today. It exists only because coaches refuse to vote it out. After all, it rewards rough play, which is easier to teach than skill.

The end of game halfcourt outs, and foul setup is something the nba really gets right and could help the ncaa. As could 6 pfs for dq and 10 foul double bonus only. Most ncaa teams dont have 12 guys who could contribute.. so why wouldnt we afford the less experienced players at least as much.

 

[Eagles20]

Agreed, the one-and-one is the most asinine, profoundly obtuse rule in the college game today. It exists only because coaches refuse to vote it out. After all, it rewards rough play, which is easier to teach than skill.

explain further.. you get free throws...if you make them whats the problem

 

[Orangezoo]

explain further.. you get free throws...if you make them whats the problem

Justify why the college game should offer this instead of the pro rules. 5 pfs as well? 8 minutes less and smaller rotations should equal out. 6 pfs and only double bonus makes more sense.

 

[Cowtown]

The end of game halfcourt outs, and foul setup is something the nba really gets right and could help the ncaa. As could 6 pfs for dq and 10 foul double bonus only. Most ncaa teams dont have 12 guys who could contribute.. so why wouldnt we afford the less experienced players at least as much.

The NBA needs 6 fouls because they play 48 minutes instead of 40. I support shooting 2 on the 8th foul in each half, which is the way FIBA was until they went to 4 quarters. Now they shoot 2 on the 5th foul in each quarter. Any more leeway than that just rewards rough play.

 

[Cowtown]

explain further.. you get free throws...if you make them whats the problem

One and one rewards rough play. It's an anachronism, like Iowa girls still playing with 6 players. I appreciate good defense, but offense is the essence of basketball. And fouls are not good defense.

 

[Eagles20]

One and one rewards rough play. It's an anachronism, like Iowa girls still playing with 6 players.

i never once thought that it rewards rough play. You get to shoot free throws so its not rewarding a team for fouling. you want to hurt them for fouling, make your free throws. I can see going to 6 fouls..the game has got more physical and it would keep your better players on the court a little longer

 

[tbonezone]

i don't blame the refs. we led for 39 minutes. this team simply isn't smart enuf to win close games.

 

[Cowtown]

i never once thought that it rewards rough play. You get to shoot free throws so its not rewarding a team for fouling. you want to hurt them for fouling, make your free throws. I can see going to 6 fouls..the game has got more physical and it would keep your better players on the court a little longer

I'm sorry, we disagree on both points. One-and-one is less of a penalty that two free throws, and 6 fouls in 40 minutes allows rough players to play rough for longer. Neither is conducive to skill, offense, or scoring points. Both induce rougher play. If you don't see that, we're watching a different game at the same time.

 

[SWC75]

I'd like to see the disqualification (foul out) rule replaced with a "penalty box" concept. if a guy fouls he has to leave the game for a specified period- say a minute and maybe two after a fifth foul. I hate players having to sit out for 8-10 minutes of a half because of foul trouble when so many fouls are inconsistently called. (You'd still have free throws.)

Failing that, how about giving each player an extra foul for overtime?

 

[rrlbees]

It's easy to blame the refs in this one because they made it so damned easy to blame them.

 

[HOFCeluck]

The only thing your post needed was the title, man.

 

[Eagles20]

I'm sorry, we disagree on both points. One-and-one is less of a penalty that two free throws, and 6 fouls in 40 minutes allows rough player to play rough for longer. Neither is conducive to skill, offense, or scoring points. Both induce rougher play. If you don't see that, we're watching a different game at the same time.

Well making two free throws gets you two points and you win games by outscoring your opponent.
I guess i just like a rougher style of basketball than you. I enjoy basketball being a somewhat contact sport. I wasn't even a big kid, 6"3 175 in high school. I always enjoyed that as a player. If someone bumped me i had no problem bumping them right back. I used to always pretty much throw my defender into a screen...9 out of 10 times i didn't get called and got an open jump shot. No way i was allowing the defender to dictate where i was going on the floor. In my area we played a physical brand of basketball.

 

[SWC75]

Its hard to not watch this one and get frustrated with many calls that should have went our way..

BUT

Syracuse still had many opportunities regardless of the refs to win this one on their own:


-Mike G had many good looks in the second half around the foul line that he missed and a wide open 3
-Kaleb had open 3's that he missed and a bad turnover on a pass to Cooney that led to a Hilliard dunk
-Mike G looked really shaky as the inbounds passer and waisted a timeout where he had trevor wide open. We could have really used that timeout later in the game
-Mike G went 1-2 down the stretch on free throws...needed both there
-We gave up a basket in under 6 seconds...why don't we send a guard up the floor to make Nova pick the ball up in the back court. Send token pressure to make them pick it up and then hustle that guard back to play defense.
-Cooney shouldn't have followed Archidiacno all the way to the baseline giving up a wide open 3 where that was way more damaging up 5 rather than a possible two or having nova run more time off the clock to earn points.
- Regardless if you think Cooney was fouled or flopped late...where was our other 3 guys in trying to get open to get the ball in bounds? Christmas should have attacked that ball better and been able to come down with it and get fouled. Why was Chris even on the same side side as christmas there?? that is terrible spacing when trying to get the ball in bounds.
- the opening stretch to the second half set the tone for Villanova and they got back into the game quickly. A better start to the second half and we put this away.

Villanova was the more physical team the whole second half and outmuscled syracuse quit a few times. They played good half court pressure defense and the refs allowed it. It seems like the team that plays that way and is the aggressor is always rewarded by the stripes...Rick Patino teams play like this all the time and seem to always be rewarded.

I seem to look at what syracuse could have done better to win the game and less to leaving it up to the refs to blow it for you. I also understand as a fan the frustration with the refs as well.

Overall, i said the other day this was going to be a key game for the season and seeing how this team plays against the best talent we have faced so far. Im very optimistic with how this team played and feel their are good things to come. Overall, I was more impressed with Joseph than at any other time this season. Other than the give way to hilliard he didn't do anything to hurt like in games past.

You can point out all that and I wouldn't argue with it. But it doesn't make the officiating irrelevant- or good.

I completely agree with your point about aggressiveness and it's impact on how the game is called. But I don't have your view of the way things should be.

I believe that referees tend call anything they consider unusual. if one team is physical, they will call anything unusually physical for that team. If a team is more of a finesse team, (playing, to my mind, "real basketball"), they get called anything. Even when the fouls are even, and they sure weren't here), the physical team has the advantage because they get away with being more physical than the finesse team. There should actually be more fouls called on the physical team if the game were to be fairly called.

 

[RF2044]

Well making two free throws gets you two points and you win games by outscoring your opponent.
I guess i just like a rougher style of basketball than you. I enjoy basketball being a somewhat contact sport. I wasn't even a big kid, 6"3 175 in high school. I always enjoyed that as a player. If someone bumped me i had no problem bumping them right back. I used to always pretty much throw my defender into a screen...9 out of 10 times i didn't get called and got an open jump shot. No way i was allowing the defender to dictate where i was going on the floor. In my area we played a physical brand of basketball.

There's nothing wrong with physical play, provided the refs are consistent and calls things both ways. If that is the case, then it is incumbent on the players to adjust.

That said, college basketball has gone way past the line of where physical play is just about "letting 'em play." If there's no attempt to enforce the rules of the game, then why bother playing?

 

[NYCSUGrad]

i don't blame the refs. we led for 39 minutes. this team simply isn't smart enuf to win close games.

Geez. Really? If the refs had a semblance of fairness we would have been up double digits easily and even sloppy play in the last minute wouldn't have lost us the game. The team played probably their best overall game save for McCullough but you can't win playing five on eight.

 

[Eagles20]

You can point out all that and I wouldn't argue with it. But it doesn't make the officiating irrelevant- or good.

I completely agree with your point about aggressiveness and it's impact on how the game is called. But I don't have your view of the way things should be.

I believe that referees tend call anything they consider unusual. if one team is physical, they will call anything unusually physical for that team. If a team is more of a finesse team, (playing, to my mind, "real basketball"), they get called anything. Even when the fouls are even, and they sure weren't here), the physical team has the advantage because they get away with being more physical than the finesse team. There should actually be more fouls called on the physical team if the game were to be fairly called.

great post as usual SWC..i enjoy reading your thoughts and opinions (no sarcasm at all).

My first line in my original post i did state frustration with the refs. I was just trying to point out even with the bad calls their were still many opportunities to leave philly with an outstanding win.

 

[orangefan13]

agree great post swc, And I don't think its just that, I think its the way we play zone as well.

They decide we have to play differently inside, like if they get a step towards the basket before we make any contact it ends up in a automatic foul we got their late, when it shouldn't. Meanwhile on the perimeter they can handcheck with both hands on our bodies and rub up against the cutter cutting to the ball like hes in the low post, and they never blow it on the guy recieving the pass only the defender guarding the ball handler once in a blue moon.

 

[Cowtown]

I'd like to see the disqualification (foul out) rule replaced with a "penalty box" concept. if a guy fouls he has to leave the game for a specified period- say a minute and maybe two after a fifth foul. I hate players having to sit out for 8-10 minutes of a half because of foul trouble when so many fouls are inconsistently called. (You'd still have free throws.)

Failing that, how about giving each player an extra foul for overtime?

Interesting suggestions, but I'm not in favor of anything that induces/forgives rough play, for it mitigates against the skill and grace that made us all like the game in the first place.

 

[BuffOrange]

That is something that Villanova is coached to do, BTW. Get into the post, up fake, dip the shoulder to create separation, initiate contact and throw the ball up to draw the whistle.

That play where their center did all of that, but threw the ball behind him because he tried to initiate contact but our defender stepped away--so he fell down, threw the ball backwards and it bounced off his head out of bounds--while Wright went crazy on the sidelines showed how they utilize that play and rely upon the refs to bail them out.

Was I hearing things or did the crowd actually boo on that one? Hilarious.
Honestly that D should be a staple vs them if their sole objective is initiating contact & 5foot jumpers aren't in their repertoire.

 

[Orangezoo]

Whatever the solution is i think it either needs to be rules that do not emphasize rough play or the ability for coaches to have questionable calls reviewed like the nfl challenge system except for fouls on top of out of bounds calls and flagrants. Obviously the ideal approach is the first one. So far they have failed miserably to impact the physical play.

 

[SWC75]

Interesting suggestions, but I'm not in favor of anything that induces/forgives rough play, for it mitigates against the skill and grace that made us all like the game in the first place.

I don't think that induces or forgives anything. It's just a different way of punishing players that doesn't put a guy out for 8-10 minutes because his coach is afraid he'll foul out or leave a team that matched the other team in score in regulation without three key players in overtime.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

better than totally blaming the refs..shows a bit of weakness

Sorta weak like your logic I guess. Guess we should have just left our guys with 5 fouls, many of them phantom, on the floor instead of having them sit on the bench. . Hows that for looking at things differently? Guess Cooney should not have hit the floor from a two handed shove at the end of regulation with the ref standing right there looking at the Villa hack doing another " great hustling defense job" on him. Guess McC should not have let the Villa player back under him and drive him all the way to the foul line from under the basket for his 5th foul either. I now see how looking at things different makes me stronger.

 

[Eagles20]

Just watched the last 17 seconds over again... comments on Joseph.. What was he doing defensively.. He chose to take away neither pass up top and rather stood in the middle going back in forth to guard neither hilliard on the cross court pass or chose not to come over and take away the closer pass that led to a wide open 3 and an easy pass for Archidiacigno.

To make matter worse he followed that great defensive indicisveness with having Cooney screen for him to get open and instead of making a move off the screen decided to come back to Cooney which brought hilliard back into the play and caused Cooney to trip on Hilliards foot and fall down (archi was physical but not enough to make cooney fall down)

The third mistake was by Chris to completely run in a half circle under the basket from the other side and bring his defender over to get in the way of Christmas. If he doesn't come all the way over even if the defender tips the ball away from christmas it possible goes out of bounds and we are inbounding the ball on the side again. Christmas also could have done a better job of getting his body in front of pinkston while coming down the sideline to shield himself to receive the ball. I also enjoyed how he took a second to throw his hands up in disgust and look at our bench long enough to allow himself to get out of position and for pinkston to receive a pass and lay in the tying basket.

It was also very nice of Mike G to let the ball hang out on the floor long enough for Villanova to set up their pressure man defense instead of getting the ball right away and passing to a wide open Cooney was unguarded for a few seconds.

O well, a great 17 seconds

 

[Eagles20]

Sorta weak like your logic I guess. Guess we should have just left our guys with 5 fouls, many of them phantom, on the floor instead of having them sit on the bench. . Hows that for looking at things differently? Guess Cooney should not have hit the floor from a two handed shove at the end of regulation with the ref standing right there looking at the Villa hack doing another " great hustling defense job" on him. Guess McC should not have let the Villa player back under him and drive him all the way to the foul line from under the basket for his 5th foul either. I now see how looking at things different makes me stronger.

and chris could have moved his feet better and not picked up his fourth foul 10 seconds into the second half..i mean i don't know