Jimmy

[ar inj]

What’s all of that have to do with my post and the point I was responding too? Nothing.

Fair enough. My response got muddled.

Your original point, as I understand it, was that poster you were responding to was not correct in their assertion that JBIII is a turnover machine or words to that effect.

Based on average number of turnovers, you are correct.

My point is that there are two sides to the coin. The other side is that he is a black hole and does not pass the ball. That helps reduce the number of turnovers, but it also harms the over all offense. It makes others stop and watch. They watch because they never expect to get a pass. That they do not get a pass or passes that lead to baskets is born out by the stats.

To date, JBIII has more turnovers than assists this year, if only by one. I noted in my post and credited him for starting to make passes. The stats bear that out as well. Six of his 20 assists on the season have come in 2 of the last three games. We all hope that is a sign of things to come. Even so, the past three games have had 7 assists but 6 turnovers. Before that, it was 13 assists and 15 turnovers and in 6 games he had more turnovers than assists.

That stats are all well and good but one also needs to consider the eye test and the fact that, whether or not it is called a turnover in the score book, bad shots are the equivalent of a turnover and really bad shots end up being the the first pass of the other teams fast break. JBIII has a penchant for taking bad shots, and forced shots, and the I-am-going-to-shoot-the-ball-this-time-down-the-court-no-matter-what-happens-shots. The coach has acknowledged as much on at least one occasion. JBIII also has a penchant for stringing together two or three such efforts. They are momentum killers and/or dig holes the team has to dig out of or both.

So to be clear, my point is you are correct by the numbers in the score book, but if one looks at the entire game he has less turnovers because he is a black hole and never passes, but if we add in the bad and forced shots that may not be recorded as a turnover in the book, by the eye test (and you know you see it too) he is much worse than number in the score book suggests.

 

[PhatOrange]

 

[kcsu]

Agreed. Joe has come close to actualizing his full potential this year, IMO. He's showing much improved shot selection, he's shooting much more efficiently, and he's a decent playmaker who would benefit from playing off the ball.

Because he isn't a primary ballhandler, he's a defensive liability, and he's small for the zone.

Kudos to JGIII for making all of these off-season improvements, because it's made him a much more effective college player. But there are some things [lack of height, limited athleticism] that can't be changed just by being a gym rat.

He should never have been put in this position. I hope he gets atleast one year to play the 2

 

[kcsu]

Yep...thought the same thing. Imagine my boss telling the public, referring to me "Maybe he will leave, who knows?" I think I might get the message...

It is so screwed up its beyond belief.
Its one thing to mimic the Kardashians its another for Jim to pull a Bruce.

 

[Arangeman]

What are we doing?

Not running a serious program, thats what

Exactly. We have a semi retired coach doing whatever he wants with no one checking him. The objective is to win games not make sure JB has carte blanche to control his long goodbye.

 

[Dinkyspond]

I don't get the logic behind petitioning to play for another year. Isn't this year the year that makes up for missing last year?

I get that guys that played last year are now getting a fifth year but that is to make up for all of the stoppages and quarantines last year.

This is Jimmy's 4th year of playing. Everybody but the Ivies got a free year to play 5 if they want. By petitioning, Jimmy is asking for that 5th year like everybody else. I'm no lawyer, but I think Ivy kids who lost a year but went to play elsewhere, like Jimmy, have a good argument and case to get back that extra year.

 

[sufandu]

This is Jimmy's 4th year of playing. Everybody but the Ivies got a free year to play 5 if they want. By petitioning, Jimmy is asking for that 5th year like everybody else. I'm no lawyer, but I think Ivy kids who lost a year but went to play elsewhere, like Jimmy, have a good argument and case to get back that extra year.

Yeah, but the idea of the fifth year is to make up for missing out on a normal fourth year, whether it was because you chose to opt out, your conference cancelled or had a shortened season, or you missed a bunch of games due to covid cancels or quarantine. The idea is that everyone should have the opportunity at 4 normal, or nearly normal, years. For the guys that played the covid year, that year isn't supposed to count. A petition for Jimmy to play a 5th is changing the logic and intent.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

I'd like them both a lot better (along with Buddy and Joe) if everybody played 25-30 minutes a game, and we played a bunch of guys from the bench who have the skills to make up for what those guys lack.

Of course this would be the ideal situation to add five recruits to this year's roster but in 2022 CBB not sure that is possible. Kids want to play, no matter what level they are playing at. Coaches need to either find kids who are happy sitting, or play ten guys 15 to 30 minutes each. But very few coaches play ten guys.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Yeah, but the idea of the fifth year is to make up for missing out on a normal fourth year, whether it was because you chose to opt out, your conference cancelled or had a shortened season, or you missed a bunch of games due to covid cancels or quarantine. The idea is that everyone should have the opportunity at 4 normal, or nearly normal, years. For the guys that played the covid year, that year isn't supposed to count. A petition for Jimmy to play a 5th is changing the logic and intent.

The fifth year was to make up for the end of 2019-20 being shortened, and all the conference tournaments and March Madness being canceled.

Everybody who was on a team in 2019-20 got the extra year.

Take the example of Colin Gillespie from Villanova:
2017-18 Year 1
2018-19 Year 2
2019-20 Covid (No Tournament). Doesn't count.
2020-21 Year 3
2021-22 Year 4

Compare that with Jimmy Boeheim (or any other Ivy League kid):
2017-18 Year 1
2018-19 Year 2
2019-20 Covid (No Tournament). Doesn't count.
2020-21 Ivy League canceled, no basketball
2021-22 Year 3.

Jimmy only got 3 normal years, not 4 like everyone else.

 

[kcsu]

Jimmy deserves another year and i hope he comes back. Would love to see
Jesse 5
Jimmy4
Benny 3
Buddy 2
Copeland 1

Bench Joe 1,2
Cole 3,4
Frank 5
Plus the Frosh

Putting Copeland at the 1 completely changes the team. You go from 6 feet with limited athleticism, zero penetration to 6'6 super athleticism and a kid that get to the rack.
Copeland and Buddy up top make the zone much better.
I think this team wins 20 and lands a 6-8 spot in the tournament.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

The fifth year was to make up for the end of 2019-20 being shortened, and all the conference tournaments and March Madness being canceled.

Everybody who was on a team in 2019-20 got the extra year.

Take the example of Colin Gillespie from Villanova:
2017-18 Year 1
2018-19 Year 2
2019-20 Covid (No Tournament). Doesn't count.
2020-21 Year 3
2021-22 Year 4

Compare that with Jimmy Boeheim (or any other Ivy League kid):
2017-18 Year 1
2018-19 Year 2
2019-20 Covid (No Tournament). Doesn't count.
2020-21 Ivy League canceled, no basketball
2021-22 Year 3.

Jimmy only got 3 normal years, not 4 like everyone else.

Cornell was 7-20 when the 2019-2020 season ended. They had just one more game to lose. He got a full season.

 

[sufandu]

The fifth year was to make up for the end of 2019-20 being shortened, and all the conference tournaments and March Madness being canceled.

Everybody who was on a team in 2019-20 got the extra year.

Take the example of Colin Gillespie from Villanova:
2017-18 Year 1
2018-19 Year 2
2019-20 Covid (No Tournament). Doesn't count.
2020-21 Year 3
2021-22 Year 4

Compare that with Jimmy Boeheim (or any other Ivy League kid):
2017-18 Year 1
2018-19 Year 2
2019-20 Covid (No Tournament). Doesn't count.
2020-21 Ivy League canceled, no basketball
2021-22 Year 3.

Jimmy only got 3 normal years, not 4 like everyone else.

Ok. That makes sense.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Cornell was 7-20 when the 2019-2020 season ended. They had just one more game to lose. He got a full season.

And if they won the Ivy League tournament that year?

You take away a man's tournament hopes, and you take away everything he's got and everything he's ever gonna have. -- William Munny.

 

[ar inj]

The fifth year was to make up for the end of 2019-20 being shortened, and all the conference tournaments and March Madness being canceled.

Everybody who was on a team in 2019-20 got the extra year.

Take the example of Colin Gillespie from Villanova:
2017-18 Year 1
2018-19 Year 2
2019-20 Covid (No Tournament). Doesn't count.
2020-21 Year 3
2021-22 Year 4

Compare that with Jimmy Boeheim (or any other Ivy League kid):
2017-18 Year 1
2018-19 Year 2
2019-20 Covid (No Tournament). Doesn't count.
2020-21 Ivy League canceled, no basketball
2021-22 Year 3.

Jimmy only got 3 normal years, not 4 like everyone else.

This is absolutely false, revisionist history, or a total lack of understanding. The extra year was given because of the circumstances surrounding the 20-21 season, not 19-20

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Jimmy deserves another year and i hope he comes back. Would love to see
Jesse 5
Jimmy4
Benny 3
Buddy 2
Copeland 1

Bench Joe 1,2
Cole 3,4
Frank 5
Plus the Frosh

Putting Copeland at the 1 completely changes the team. You go from 6 feet with limited athleticism, zero penetration to 6'6 super athleticism and a kid that get to the rack.
Copeland and Buddy up top make the zone much better.
I think this team wins 20 and lands a 6-8 spot in the tournament.

Greta on paper, but I'm already looking forward to the press conferences next season where JB explains that Copeland isn't ready.

 

[orange79]

Greta on paper

Is this what you meant?

 

[Alsacs]

And if they won the Ivy League tournament that year?

You take away a man's tournament hopes, and you take away everything he's got and everything he's ever gonna have. -- William Munny.

Only 4 teams make the Ivy tournament.
Doubtful they even qualify

 

[OrangeXtreme]

This is absolutely false, revisionist history, or a total lack of understanding. The extra year was given because of the circumstances surrounding the 20-21 season, not 19-20

Yup. You caught me. I've got nothing better to do with my time but make stuff up.

Spring 2020 Athletes got the extra year.

It wasn't applied to Winter Athletes until 2020-21.

Mea Culpa.

DI Council extends eligibility for winter sport student-athletes

Winter sport student-athletes who compete during 2020-21 in Division I will receive both an additional season of competition and an additional year in which to complete

www.ncaa.org

"Winter sport student-athletes who compete during 2020-21 in Division I will receive both an additional season of competition and an additional year in which to complete it, the Division I Council decided. The same flexibility was provided to student-athletes after the spring season was canceled in 2020 and the fall season was seriously impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic."

However, since Jimmy and the rest of the Ivy League didn't compete in 2020-21, he's still in the same boat.

Everyone who played in 2020-21 got 5 years to play 5 seasons. Ivy kids only got 5 years to play 4 seasons.

 

[Alsacs]

The petition should be denied.
Any Ivy player could have transfered and played last year.
If they prioritized their degrees good for them. Your school didnt keep you there if you wanted to play.

Pretty simple.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

If your lucky, they won't kick the legs off the table and throw them on the fire before they leave.

Something tells me papa is ready to make sure things are left how he found them.

Hope I'm wrong.

When Papa "found" the program, he came in with two of the greatest players in SU history and went 26-4, including a win over the Ernie & Bernie show in the first round of the NCAA tournament.

How he "found" the program would arguably be an upgrade over where we are now.

Maybe take a refresher course on the history of the program.

 

[sufandu]

Yup. You caught me. I've got nothing better to do with my time but make stuff up.

Spring 2020 Athletes got the extra year.

It wasn't applied to Winter Athletes until 2020-21.

Mea Culpa.

DI Council extends eligibility for winter sport student-athletes

Winter sport student-athletes who compete during 2020-21 in Division I will receive both an additional season of competition and an additional year in which to complete

www.ncaa.org

Everyone who played in 2020-21 got 5 years to play 5 seasons. Ivy kids only got 5 years to play 4 seasons.

Not really though. Everyone else got 5 years to play 4 and some change because the first covid year was so messed up. It was a crazy year that everyone said shouldn't count. For the purposes of the extra year, it is supposed to be like it never happened for anyone.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

He’s better than anyone coming in. I want the best team possible.

Last night, my son and I were talking about some of the vintage teams that he has seen play but was young enough that he really doesn't remember them (his first game at dome was G'town on Valentine's day in 09 at the age of 5).

We focused on the 2012 team and were discussing whether or not anyone from the current team would see the floor for that team.

The guards were Triche, Scoop, Dion and MCW.

The forwards were Rak (token starter), Kris Joseph, CJ Fair and Southerland.

The centers were Fab Melo and BMK.

Our conclusion was that Buddy may have seen some time as a spot-up shooter but that nobody else would sniff the floor.

What do you think?

 

[Alsacs]

Last night, my son and I were talking about some of the vintage teams that he has seen play but was young enough that he really doesn't remember them (his first game at dome was G'town on Valentine's day in 09 at the age of 5).

We focused on the 2012 team and were discussing whether or not anyone from the current team would see the floor for that team.

The guards were Triche, Scoop, Dion and MCW.

The forwards were Rak (token starter), Kris Joseph, CJ Fair and Southerland.

The centers were Fab Melo and BMK.

Our conclusion was that Buddy may have seen some time as a spot-up shooter but that nobody else would sniff the floor.

What do you think?

Which guard does Buddy see time over in 2012?

In 2013 he would have played. As we only had 3 guards.

Put Buddy on the 2014 team it could have cut down the nets. We needed shooting on that team.

Not a single player on this team plays minutes in 2012.
Guards, forwards and Fab, Rak and Keita.

 

[orangedave]

I'm not one for calling for a locked thread, but man we're getting brutally off the mark.

Why not just ignore the thread yourself and let others comment?

 

[Waltdods]

Last night, my son and I were talking about some of the vintage teams that he has seen play but was young enough that he really doesn't remember them (his first game at dome was G'town on Valentine's day in 09 at the age of 5).

We focused on the 2012 team and were discussing whether or not anyone from the current team would see the floor for that team.

The guards were Triche, Scoop, Dion and MCW.

The forwards were Rak (token starter), Kris Joseph, CJ Fair and Southerland.

The centers were Fab Melo and BMK.

Our conclusion was that Buddy may have seen some time as a spot-up shooter but that nobody else would sniff the floor.

What do you think?

Interesting question.

I think buddy would have gotten some run on that team. There were periods when, as good as the team was, it really struggled to score and the only real hole was shooting. It’s hard to say whose spot he would take bc the counterfactual gets complicated. But I think that team specifically is better if buddy is there instead of mcw (who is unquestionably the better player) and probably has a higher ceiling and a lower floor if he’s there instead of triche or scoop.

I think Edwards is probably better than Keita was that year. Edwards clearly better offensively, keita probably better defensively (it is hard to say definitively I think bc of the differences in the guys they played with). Not sure Edwards would have played over keita if you just dropped him on the team bc boeheim had a lot of trust in bmk but I don’t think it would have been a drop off.

I will say I think the other guys on this team would have been perfectly fine 8-9 options on that team - I don’t think that team is significantly worse if you swap out southerland for swider for example. This years teams problem isn’t a lack of guys who could contribute in limited roles. It’s having guys who should be in limited roles playing massive ones.