Let's say we are disappointing again this year

[UnknownOrange]

Oh my God. What a ridiculous, ill informed post. yeah, we offered the best kids in the country. Like everyone else. But we didn't make them a priority because we knew we couldn't get them. No chance. I'm sure we probably offered lebron when he was a high school sr.

Insane that they didn't offer him as a HS Freshman. Boeheim really is losing it

 

[jordoo]

"Alternative fact" alert: "The last couple of years" of missing out on top targets is not accurate. It was one year--2017. For 2016 we landed 3 top 100 recruits, most of them the primary guys we targeted. I think we would have gotten Huerter, too, if not for the scholarship reduction. Let's see what happens for 2018. But one recruiting cycle does not make a trend.

If you really look at things it started with the 2013 class. Other than Ennis who was great and left after that season we had Johnson, Roberson, Patterson and Obokoh. We got nothing from Obokoh and Patterson. They weren't ACC level players. Roberson was a contributor for four years but he was inconsistent. Johnson is an ACC level player but came in young and moved on. So that class gave us a year of Ennis starting at PG and an inconsistent rotational player. That class combined with NCAA limits really handcuffed us. Thankfully we had brought MikeG in. We missed on some guards and added Patterson late.

We followed that up in 2014 with McCullough and Joseph. Joseph was a miss and McCullough never made it to ACC play. These were two guys we wanted and got.

The 2015 class was Richarson, Lydon and Howard. Two of those guys are in the NBA and even though Howard has struggled he has shown high level ability from time to time. Our big miss in this class was Bryant although this class produced two first round picks.

2016 was Battle, Thompson and the two Grad transfers Gillon and White. All four where starting by mid season. Battle waffled, Thompson decided very late, Gillon and White were added because we lost Richardson to the NBA and Joseph didn't work out.

2017 is another big class Brissett, Sidibe, Washington, Dolezaj and the the Grad transfer Thorpe. This class cannot wind up being like the 2013 class. I'll just say it, we missed on all of our primary targets.

2018 is Hughes and Bazley thus far. This is a great start even though we have already missed on one primary target in Swider.

If the last five years are any indication then Syracuse is going to miss on some of their priority guys while still getting some great recruits. That said the real issue is when we bring in guys that aren't ACC level players. Then add to that our better players have been good enough to leave after one or two seasons. I think we are fine with the higher level players we have brought in but have been hurt by getting program/depth recruits that aren't performing at a high enough level for the ACC.

 

[dasher]

If you really look at things it started with the 2013 class. Other than Ennis who was great and left after that season we had Johnson, Roberson, Patterson and Obokoh. We got nothing from Obokoh and Patterson. They weren't ACC level players. Roberson was a contributor for four years but he was inconsistent. Johnson is an ACC level player but came in young and moved on. So that class gave us a year of Ennis starting at PG and an inconsistent rotational player. That class combined with NCAA limits really handcuffed us. Thankfully we had brought MikeG in. We missed on some guards and added Patterson late.

We followed that up in 2014 with McCullough and Joseph. Joseph was a miss and McCullough never made it to ACC play. These were two guys we wanted and got.

The 2015 class was Richarson, Lydon and Howard. Two of those guys are in the NBA and even though Howard has struggled he has shown high level ability from time to time. Our big miss in this class was Bryant although this class produced two first round picks.

2016 was Battle, Thompson and the two Grad transfers Gillon and White. All four where starting by mid season. Battle waffled, Thompson decided very late, Gillon and White were added because we lost Richardson to the NBA and Joseph didn't work out.

2017 is another big class Brissett, Sidibe, Washington, Dolezaj and the the Grad transfer Thorpe. This class cannot wind up being like the 2013 class. I'll just say it, we missed on all of our primary targets.

2018 is Hughes and Bazley thus far. This is a great start even though we have already missed on one primary target in Swider.

If the last five years are any indication then Syracuse is going to miss on some of there priority guys while still getting some great recruits. That said the real issue is when we bring in guys that aren't ACC level players. Then add to that our better players have been good enough to leave after one or two seasons. I think we are fine with the higher level players we have brought in but have been hurt by getting program/depth recruits that aren't performing at a high enough level for the ACC.

Excellent post

 

[JayC20]

If you really look at things it started with the 2013 class. Other than Ennis who was great and left after that season we had Johnson, Roberson, Patterson and Obokoh. We got nothing from Obokoh and Patterson. They weren't ACC level players. Roberson was a contributor for four years but he was inconsistent. Johnson is an ACC level player but came in young and moved on. So that class gave us a year of Ennis starting at PG and an inconsistent rotational player. That class combined with NCAA limits really handcuffed us. Thankfully we had brought MikeG in. We missed on some guards and added Patterson late.

We followed that up in 2014 with McCullough and Joseph. Joseph was a miss and McCullough never made it to ACC play. These were two guys we wanted and got.

The 2015 class was Richarson, Lydon and Howard. Two of those guys are in the NBA and even though Howard has struggled he has shown high level ability from time to time. Our big miss in this class was Bryant although this class produced two first round picks.

2016 was Battle, Thompson and the two Grad transfers Gillon and White. All four where starting by mid season. Battle waffled, Thompson decided very late, Gillon and White were added because we lost Richardson to the NBA and Joseph didn't work out.

2017 is another big class Brissett, Sidibe, Washington, Dolezaj and the the Grad transfer Thorpe. This class cannot wind up being like the 2013 class. I'll just say it, we missed on all of our primary targets.

2018 is Hughes and Bazley thus far. This is a great start even though we have already missed on one primary target in Swider.

If the last five years are any indication then Syracuse is going to miss on some of there priority guys while still getting some great recruits. That said the real issue is when we bring in guys that aren't ACC level players. Then add to that our better players have been good enough to leave after one or two seasons. I think we are fine with the higher level players we have brought in but have been hurt by getting program/depth recruits that aren't performing at a high enough level for the ACC.

Great post and spot on!

 

[Fly Rodder]

This class ('17) and '18 are good indicators if the downturn is just sanctions or if there bigger issues at play. For better or worse, I think that Hop leaving alleviates some divergent opinions.

Bazely is a huge pickup.

 

[007]

If you really look at things it started with the 2013 class. Other than Ennis who was great and left after that season we had Johnson, Roberson, Patterson and Obokoh. We got nothing from Obokoh and Patterson. They weren't ACC level players. Roberson was a contributor for four years but he was inconsistent. Johnson is an ACC level player but came in young and moved on. So that class gave us a year of Ennis starting at PG and an inconsistent rotational player. That class combined with NCAA limits really handcuffed us. Thankfully we had brought MikeG in. We missed on some guards and added Patterson late.

We followed that up in 2014 with McCullough and Joseph. Joseph was a miss and McCullough never made it to ACC play. These were two guys we wanted and got.

The 2015 class was Richarson, Lydon and Howard. Two of those guys are in the NBA and even though Howard has struggled he has shown high level ability from time to time. Our big miss in this class was Bryant although this class produced two first round picks.

2016 was Battle, Thompson and the two Grad transfers Gillon and White. All four where starting by mid season. Battle waffled, Thompson decided very late, Gillon and White were added because we lost Richardson to the NBA and Joseph didn't work out.

2017 is another big class Brissett, Sidibe, Washington, Dolezaj and the the Grad transfer Thorpe. This class cannot wind up being like the 2013 class. I'll just say it, we missed on all of our primary targets.

2018 is Hughes and Bazley thus far. This is a great start even though we have already missed on one primary target in Swider.

If the last five years are any indication then Syracuse is going to miss on some of their priority guys while still getting some great recruits. That said the real issue is when we bring in guys that aren't ACC level players. Then add to that our better players have been good enough to leave after one or two seasons. I think we are fine with the higher level players we have brought in but have been hurt by getting program/depth recruits that aren't performing at a high enough level for the ACC.

Nailed it, jordoo

 

[Fly Rodder]

That said the real issue is when we bring in guys that aren't ACC level players. Then add to that our better players have been good enough to leave after one or two seasons. I think we are fine with the higher level players we have brought in but have been hurt by getting program/depth recruits that aren't performing at a high enough level for the ACC.

Two other things, DC2 and Diagne. Coleman's issue was an injury, but having limited scholarships and carrying him for five seasons really impacted roster flexibility. It was a killer to get basically zero production from a guy that folks thought would be a starting C/all-ACC caliber player for 2-3 years. Adding insult to injury is Diagne not being cleared at the last minute who would have picked up some slack from Coleman. They weren't necessarily recruiting misses, but the staff couldn't really replace Coleman and didn't have any extra ships to carry a backup.

 

[reedny]

If you really look at things it started with the 2013 class. Other than Ennis who was great and left after that season we had Johnson, Roberson, Patterson and Obokoh. We got nothing from Obokoh and Patterson. They weren't ACC level players. Roberson was a contributor for four years but he was inconsistent. Johnson is an ACC level player but came in young and moved on. So that class gave us a year of Ennis starting at PG and an inconsistent rotational player. That class combined with NCAA limits really handcuffed us. Thankfully we had brought MikeG in. We missed on some guards and added Patterson late.

We followed that up in 2014 with McCullough and Joseph. Joseph was a miss and McCullough never made it to ACC play. These were two guys we wanted and got.

The 2015 class was Richarson, Lydon and Howard. Two of those guys are in the NBA and even though Howard has struggled he has shown high level ability from time to time. Our big miss in this class was Bryant although this class produced two first round picks.

2016 was Battle, Thompson and the two Grad transfers Gillon and White. All four where starting by mid season. Battle waffled, Thompson decided very late, Gillon and White were added because we lost Richardson to the NBA and Joseph didn't work out.

2017 is another big class Brissett, Sidibe, Washington, Dolezaj and the the Grad transfer Thorpe. This class cannot wind up being like the 2013 class. I'll just say it, we missed on all of our primary targets.

2018 is Hughes and Bazley thus far. This is a great start even though we have already missed on one primary target in Swider.

If the last five years are any indication then Syracuse is going to miss on some of their priority guys while still getting some great recruits. That said the real issue is when we bring in guys that aren't ACC level players. Then add to that our better players have been good enough to leave after one or two seasons. I think we are fine with the higher level players we have brought in but have been hurt by getting program/depth recruits that aren't performing at a high enough level for the ACC.

OMG, wait ... it's a "wall of text". I can't. J/k. Excellent summary. On the downside, I agree that both kinds of "misses" have hurt us: 1) losing primary recruiting targets; and 2) bringing in projects that aren't ACC level. On the bright side, we've taken a couple players that were not "elite" recruits but turned into first round draft pics.

 

[Oráiste]

If the last five years are any indication then Syracuse is going to miss on some of their priority guys while still getting some great recruits.

But that's the nature of recruiting. You could have written "the last 45 years."

I agree with your conclusion about the lack of depth from the secondary recruits who haven't turned out to be ACC capable players. And that is where the sanctions really hurt. When you have a full complement of scholarships, you can miss on Sean Willaims and Devin Brennan Mcbride, but when you are docked nearly a quarter of your roster those misses kill you

 

[Oráiste]

With Bowden, you can only look at his last five years to compare to JB's last 3, not Bowden's last nine. Before that, Bowden won 9-10-9-8 games in successive seasons. We're just comparing the slide.

In Bowden's last 5 seasons, he only won his ACC division twice (one of which was tied for first), and his overall record was 38-27 and only 21-19 in the ACC.

This season's roster for SU is the weakest we have seen in terms of returning talent + incoming recruits' rankings, since probably 2001, maybe since 1997. Maybe we have a year like Damone Brown and Allen Griffin put together in 2001, which was quite respectable, or maybe they tank and are an NIT team like the 1997 team.

At best, we are a borderline NCAA team. At worst, we might have a losing record and not even make the NIT. And that is not "the sky is falling", that's just an honest assessment of our talent compared to other teams, using commonly accepted criteria. That will be season 4 for JB, comparable to Bowden's last 5 years.

we can each decide which data points we want to cherry pick.
Meanwhile, the real world will roll merrily along and ignore both of us

 

[IthacaMatt]

"Alternative fact" alert: "The last couple of years" of missing out on top targets is not accurate. It was one year--2017. For 2016 we landed 3 top 100 recruits, most of them the primary guys we targeted. I think we would have gotten Huerter, too, if not for the scholarship reduction. Let's see what happens for 2018. But one recruiting cycle does not make a trend.

Just to refresh people's memories:

In 2016, early on we went after V.J. King, from Frank's high school. Red was after him, in a classic "get the teammate so you can get the star" strategy. We didn't get him. Battle was our first choice at the 2, so that was great. Kevin Huerter was mentioned by a few others in this thread as another guy from this class that we wanted and missed out on. I believe there was another big we were looking at before we got Thompson late. So we missed a couple targets, but got a couple good ones, including Moyer. So yes, 2016 was a very solid class.

In 2015, we turned down or lost interest in Jaylen Brunson and Isaiah Briscoe. We failed to land Thomas Bryant (which was the reason we took Chino ...), we did get Malachi, who was an important target, I think I rmember us trying to get Cheik Diallo (NY/Kansas) before we locked in on Bryant (and then faded away) on him). Losing out on Mustafa Diange on the verge of the season beginning really hurt. Lydon turned out to be a steal, and Frank is Frank. Another pretty good class, after we missed our top couple prospects. If we had gotten Bryant and picked one of the other PGs (Brunson, Monte Morris), I think everyone would have been pretty thrilled with that class.

In the 2014 class, we missed out on Isaiah Whitehead (to Seton Hall) and Goodluck Okobonoh (Kansas), turned down Jaquan Newton (Neumann Goretti - went to Miami) and showed no interest in Chin Onuaku, despite what a good career Arinze had here. We wound up with Kaleb, who was a top 50 player, but we simply missed on him.

The 2013 class was the real killer class that hurt us for a few years afterwards. We missed out on Rondae Hollis-Jefferson (PA/Ariz.), Rysheed Jordan Philly/(St. John's), can't remember how involved we were with Wayne Selden (MA Prep went to Kansas), we kind of lost interest in Bejay Anya (Jerami Grant's HS teammate) as he gained weight, and a couple others, before we filled in with 3 guys who couldn't help us.

Yes, every school misses on some of its recruits. But the thing that nags is that we have had open roster spots begging to be filled due to sanctions, and still haven't been able to get top guys at certain times. And we have been really hurt by some guys leaving a year earlier than we expected them to.

For the record, Bazley is a terrific pick-up. I hope we can close with two more immediate contributors and we will be back in very good shape with our roster.

 

[bnoro]

Just to refresh people's memories:

In 2016, early on we went after V.J. King, from Frank's high school. Red was after him, in a classic "get the teammate so you can get the star" strategy. We didn't get him. Battle was our first choice at the 2, so that was great. Kevin Huerter was mentioned by a few others in this thread as another guy from this class that we wanted and missed out on. I believe there was another big we were looking at before we got Thompson late. So we missed a couple targets, but got a couple good ones, including Moyer. So yes, 2016 was a very solid class.

In 2015, we turned down or lost interest in Jaylen Brunson and Isaiah Briscoe. We failed to land Thomas Bryant (which was the reason we took Chino ...), we did get Malachi, who was an important target, I think I rmember us trying to get Cheik Diallo (NY/Kansas) before we locked in on Bryant (and then faded away) on him). Losing out on Mustafa Diange on the verge of the season beginning really hurt. Lydon turned out to be a steal, and Frank is Frank. Another pretty good class, after we missed our top couple prospects. If we had gotten Bryant and picked one of the other PGs (Brunson, Monte Morris), I think everyone would have been pretty thrilled with that class.

In the 2014 class, we missed out on Isaiah Whitehead (to Seton Hall) and Goodluck Okobonoh (Kansas), turned down Jaquan Newton (Neumann Goretti - went to Miami) and showed no interest in Chin Onuaku, despite what a good career Arinze had here. We wound up with Kaleb, who was a top 50 player, but we simply missed on him.

The 2013 class was the real killer class that hurt us for a few years afterwards. We missed out on Rondae Hollis-Jefferson (PA/Ariz.), Rysheed Jordan Philly/(St. John's), can't remember how involved we were with Wayne Selden (MA Prep went to Kansas), we kind of lost interest in Bejay Anya (Jerami Grant's HS teammate) as he gained weight, and a couple others, before we filled in with 3 guys who couldn't help us.

Yes, every school misses on some of its recruits. But the thing that nags is that we have had open roster spots begging to be filled due to sanctions, and still haven't been able to get top guys at certain times. And we have been really hurt by some guys leaving a year earlier than we expected them to.

For the record, Bazley is a terrific pick-up. I hope we can close with two more immediate contributors and we will be back in very good shape with our roster.

Whitehead wasn't a miss, way too many red flags which is why he went to SHU.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Whitehead wasn't a miss, way too many red flags which is why he went to SHU.

Yeah, that's why I said "missed on or gave up on". He was clearly looking for something that we weren't willing to give.

 

[Newhouser]

I think having both JB and hop away at the pics was criminal. And at a time of sanctions, even more so. I just pointed out how recruiting went during the last period of sanctions. The sanctions did what the NCAA wanted them to do. having only two coaches on the road and losing ships hurts. They hurt a lot. I think the coaches age is a killer as well. On two fronts. One, we can't guarantee how long he can coach and two, he can't have the energy that younger coaches have. I think the zone hurts as well. at least with some kids. and that alone makes it tougher for us. One thing I will give the guy though, he does seem to scramble well. Two years in a row, we picked up kids late that help. I believe that Marek and Brissett will be very good players here.

The Olympics during that time frame just oozes selfish and me first by JB and Hop. I know it's passed off to the honor and the loyalty to Coach K, etc, but when your house is on fire, you don't go to your neighbors BBQ because you RVPD that you would be there. From this outside view that looked like a decision by two guys who are too comfortable in their position.

 

[Newhouser]

I just wanted to chime in with something. I got a Twitter DM from someone with a strong rooting interest. He wanted to make sure that people know that Howard Washington Jr was in the ESPN60 as a sophomore and a top 100-ranked recruit at Montverde before going to Canada, where these kids are no longer ranked. He was one of only 10 pure PG's in his class to be in the ESPN60 (some chump named Lonzo Ball also made the list). The DM also mentioned that Oshae Brissett was a top 100 recruit at Findlay Prep.

I think Howard Washington will be playing with a chip on his shoulder.

I agree but still don't understand our hesitancy in offering. He was available and interested for quite a while after QG said thanks but no thanks.

 

[CousCuse]

The Olympics during that time frame just oozes selfish and me first by JB and Hop. I know it's passed off to the honor and the loyalty to Coach K, etc, but when your house is on fire, you don't go to your neighbors BBQ because you RVPD that you would be there. From this outside view that looked like a decision by two guys who are too comfortable in their position.

 

[TheCusian]

The Olympics during that time frame just oozes selfish and me first by JB and Hop. I know it's passed off to the honor and the loyalty to Coach K, etc, but when your house is on fire, you don't go to your neighbors BBQ because you RVPD that you would be there. From this outside view that looked like a decision by two guys who are too comfortable in their position.

1. House isn't/wasn't on fire.
2. Olympic jobs help with recruiting more than hurt.
3. Sanctions are the problem.
4. The days of JAB not being comfortable here were in the 80's, lol.

 

[orangecuse]

Just to refresh people's memories:

In 2016, early on we went after V.J. King, from Frank's high school. Red was after him, in a classic "get the teammate so you can get the star" strategy. We didn't get him. Battle was our first choice at the 2, so that was great. Kevin Huerter was mentioned by a few others in this thread as another guy from this class that we wanted and missed out on. I believe there was another big we were looking at before we got Thompson late. So we missed a couple targets, but got a couple good ones, including Moyer. So yes, 2016 was a very solid class.

In 2015, we turned down or lost interest in Jaylen Brunson and Isaiah Briscoe. We failed to land Thomas Bryant (which was the reason we took Chino ...), we did get Malachi, who was an important target, I think I rmember us trying to get Cheik Diallo (NY/Kansas) before we locked in on Bryant (and then faded away) on him). Losing out on Mustafa Diange on the verge of the season beginning really hurt. Lydon turned out to be a steal, and Frank is Frank. Another pretty good class, after we missed our top couple prospects. If we had gotten Bryant and picked one of the other PGs (Brunson, Monte Morris), I think everyone would have been pretty thrilled with that class.

In the 2014 class, we missed out on Isaiah Whitehead (to Seton Hall) and Goodluck Okobonoh (Kansas), turned down Jaquan Newton (Neumann Goretti - went to Miami) and showed no interest in Chin Onuaku, despite what a good career Arinze had here. We wound up with Kaleb, who was a top 50 player, but we simply missed on him.

The 2013 class was the real killer class that hurt us for a few years afterwards. We missed out on Rondae Hollis-Jefferson (PA/Ariz.), Rysheed Jordan Philly/(St. John's), can't remember how involved we were with Wayne Selden (MA Prep went to Kansas), we kind of lost interest in Bejay Anya (Jerami Grant's HS teammate) as he gained weight, and a couple others, before we filled in with 3 guys who couldn't help us.

Yes, every school misses on some of its recruits. But the thing that nags is that we have had open roster spots begging to be filled due to sanctions, and still haven't been able to get top guys at certain times. And we have been really hurt by some guys leaving a year earlier than we expected them to.

For the record, Bazley is a terrific pick-up. I hope we can close with two more immediate contributors and we will be back in very good shape with our roster.

Indeed, as you and Jordoo mentioned, the 2013 class was just brutal. I believe we also missed out on another primary target that year in Noah Vonley.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Indeed, as you and Jordoo mentioned, the 2013 class was just brutal. I believe we also missed out on another primary target that year in Noah Vonley.

Yeah, I was gonna add Noah Vonleh, but I wasn't sure how far we got with him.

 

[GooseMutt]

I just wanted to chime in with something. I got a Twitter DM from someone with a strong rooting interest. He wanted to make sure that people know that Howard Washington Jr was in the ESPN60 as a sophomore and a top 100-ranked recruit at Montverde before going to Canada, where these kids are no longer ranked. He was one of only 10 pure PG's in his class to be in the ESPN60 (some chump named Lonzo Ball also made the list). The DM also mentioned that Oshae Brissett was a top 100 recruit at Findlay Prep.

I think Howard Washington will be playing with a chip on his shoulder.

I agree and am giddy

 

[Sherman20]

Whitehead wasn't a miss, way too many red flags which is why he went to SHU.

Right. We took Joseph instead before Whitehead was ready to commit. It was reported that we were only taking one guard out of that class and our primary targets were KJ, Jaquan Newton, and Whitehead. I heard that Hop liked Joseph, and as you said the coaches apparently saw red flags with Whitehead so we moved on (SHU ended up having to hire the kid's high school coach as an assistant to get him to commit, though he had a good career there).