Looks like Coach was right | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

Looks like Coach was right

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DoctorBombay said:
Sigh.
Not directly referring to the OP, but the "conventional wisdom" and requisite butt-hurt on this forum re; Donte Greene, is truly amazing to behold.
Again, Donte made the best decision FOR HIM, made millions of dollars, fulfilled his dream, and would likely still be on an NBA roster if not for a timely injury. The man was drafted 28th- and if any one of the arm-chair "experts" on this board bothered to ask if he'd do anything differently, his answer would undoubtedly be "HELL NO"!
Can we not become ESPN-like with our perspectives, constantly repeating something until its accepted to be true by consensus?
Donte made the right decision. Let it go, already! :bang:
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This is a virtual word for word duplication of a post you made last night. I think you are making a TON of unsupportable, false attributions.

Just because he made a decision that benefited him short term doesn't mean that it was the BEST decision for him. And you have no idea what Donte's perspective on how his career has unfolded actually is, or whether or not he would have made more or had better career longevity had he made a different decision about leaving after his freshman year. I have a difficult time believing that Donte Greene is pleased with how his career made out, given that he's been out of the league for a year at age 26. And to [poorly] paraphrase a line from a movie, do you know what's cooler than making millions? Making TENS of millions--or more.

What's he's made to this point in his career is a drop in the bucket compared to what he could have made [and might still make, if things work out for him] as a professional basketball player. A few million might be more than most people make, but that shouldn't be the basis for the evaluation--it should be viewed through the lens of how many millions he COULD have made, and how many millions he may have left by the wayside. Athletes are like perishable goods. Time is a big factor in terms of their income potential, and it can't be recovered once it has passed.

This "butt hurt" straw man diversionary tactic is not only off-base, but also apparently made by butt hurt posters when others poke holes in their one-size-fits-all logic about the NBA draft.
 
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docsu said:
Donte Greene gets destroyed here, but I will say he always seemed to be a stand up guy, which is a lot more than I can say for a certain star for the New York Knicks who has people lined up around the corner to apologize for him.
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Donte Greene was a great kid, a solid student, and a nice ambassador for the program. He happened to have an unfortunate set of background circumstances, and another situation that came to a head right around the time he needed to declare for the draft, which led to him making a questionable decision that in all likelihood cost him a ton of money, long term.

The worst--and I mean the absolute worst--thing I can envision anyone saying about him has to do with that dopey dynasty sign. Never understood why that drew so much ire, nor why he is reviled for leaving when he was a personable, amiable kid in every other respect who stayed out of trouble. Unfair, IMO.
 
I might be wrong, but if thought everyone loved it back when Donte and Jonny started doing it. That was around the same time the 2008 team was drawing comparisons to 2003.
 
longislandcuse said:
I know, he built us a practice facility, what a jerk!
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It was extremely generous of him to donate millions of dollars to a basketball practice facility. But it doesn't make any of his actions (almost entirely early I his career, to his credit) less dumb.
 
docsu said:
I might be wrong, but if thought everyone loved it back when Donte and Jonny started doing it. That was around the same time the 2008 team was drawing comparisons to 2003.
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They loved it and they loved Donte until his shot stopped going in.

If he'd continued making shots at his early-season rate, I don't think nearly as many would have complained about him leaving.
 
RF2044 said:
This is a virtual word for word duplication of a post you made last night. I think you are making a TON of unsupportable, false attributions.

Just because he made a decision that benefited him short term doesn't mean that it was the BEST decision for him. And you have no idea what Donte's perspective on how his career has unfolded actually is, or whether or not he would have made more or had better career longevity had he made a different decision about leaving after his freshman year. I have a difficult time believing that Donte Greene is pleased with how his career made out, given that he's been out of the league for a year at age 26. And to [poorly] paraphrase a line from a movie, do you know what's cooler than making millions? Making TENS of millions--or more.

What's he's made to this point in his career is a drop in the bucket compared to what he could have made [and might still make, if things work out for him] as a professional basketball player. A few million might be more than most people make, but that shouldn't be the basis for the evaluation--it should be viewed through the lens of how many millions he COULD have made, and how many millions he may have left by the wayside. Athletes are like perishable goods. Time is a big factor in terms of their income potential, and it can't be recovered once it has passed.

This "butt hurt" straw man diversionary tactic is not only off-base, but also apparently made by butt hurt posters when others poke holes in their one-size-fits-all logic about the NBA draft.
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Really? This is the basis of your contention...that a decision by Donte Greene about his own life, was somehow not "the BEST decision for him". Says who? Some random, anonymous fan on a message board who's, yes, BUTTHURT, that a player decided to leave SU instead of staying another year, and MAYBE being in a better position? Correct me if I'm wrong but Donte suffered his injury after playing 3 years in the league. Using the illogic of the BUTTHURT SU fan, if he'd stayed another year, that would've meant one LESS year of salary and less money. You see how easy conjecture based on perfect storm analytics can be? Was Donte guaranteed being drafted higher, not suffering an injury, or hell, not failing out of school had he stayed? The point is you don't know, and neither do I. The decision was his to make based on what he deemed best for him. Period.
Why is it so hard to grasp that these are free-willed HUMAN BEINGS, who decide their futures based on what THEY feel is important...to THEM, and not you? The sooner some of you "pie-in'the-sky", unicorns-and-gumdrops" fans realize this, the easier it will be to accept when one of them decides to make a move that they feel benefits them, instead of you and your favorite sports team.
Get over it...I'm pretty sure Donte has.:rolleyes:
 
DoctorBombay said:
Really? This is the basis of your contention...that a decision by Donte Greene about his own life, was somehow not "the BEST decision for him". Says who? Some random, anonymous fan on a message board who's, yes, BUTTHURT, that a player decided to leave SU instead of staying another year, and MAYBE being in a better position? Correct me if I'm wrong but Donte suffered his injury after playing 3 years in the league. Using the illogic of the BUTTHURT SU fan, if he'd stayed another year, that would've meant one LESS year of salary and less money. You see how easy conjecture based on perfect storm analytics can be? Was Donte guaranteed being drafted higher, not suffering an injury, or hell, not failing out of school had he stayed? The point is you don't know, and neither do I. The decision was his to make based on what he deemed best for him. Period.
Why is it so hard to grasp that these are free-willed HUMAN BEINGS, who decide their futures based on what THEY feel is important...to THEM, and not you? The sooner some of you "pie-in'the-sky", unicorns-and-gumdrops" fans realize this, the easier it will be to accept when one of them decides to make a move that they feel benefits them, instead of you and your favorite sports team.
Get over it...I'm pretty sure Donte has.:rolleyes:
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Give me a freaking break. I don't have to be Donte Greene to assess whether his NBA career has unfolded optimally, or objectively evaluate the decision. Actions--and decisions--have consequences. That's the beauty of the free will you reference, but things don't always work out for the best.

And your point about me being "BUTTHURT" about his departure couldn't be more off target.

As is, in my opinion, most of the rest of the opinions you are expressing about this topic.

It doesn't matter how many times or how colorfully you repeat the same incorrect points, you are merely trying to divert the discussion because the facts don't support your perspective.

If anyone is blowing pie-in-the-sky-unicorn-rainbows out of their ass, it is you by injecting all of this humanistic crap into the discussion. I've presented objective data indicating what the different salary ranges are by NBA draft position. Do the math yourself. If you believe that Donte--a McDonald's all american who averaged close to 17 and 8 as a frosh on an undermanned team--couldn't have improved both his draft position and his income / revenue from what is allocated for the #28 pick, then which one of us is grasping at straws and unrealistically sucking on gumdrops.

Honestly, at this point I have no interest in attempting to convince you anymore. I just want to point out the inherent hypocrisy in your posts on this subject.
 
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RF2044 said:
Give me a freaking break. I don't have to be Donte Greene to assess whether his NBA career has unfolded optimally, or objectively evaluate the decision. Actions--and decisions--have consequences. That's the beauty of the free will you reference, but things don't always work out for the best.

And your point about me being "BUTTHURT" about his departure couldn't be more off target.

As is, in my opinion, most of the rest of the opinions you are expressing about this topic.

It doesn't matter how many times or how colorfully you repeat the same incorrect points, you are merely trying to divert the discussion because the facts don't support your perspective.

If anyone is blowing pie-in-the-sky-unicorn-rainbows out of their ass, it is you by injecting all of this humanistic crap into the discussion. I've presented objective data indicating what the different salary ranges are by NBA draft position. Do the math yourself. If you believe that Donte--a McDonald's all american who averaged close to 17 and 8 as a frosh on an undermanned team--couldn't have improved both his draft position and his income / revenue from what is allocated for the #28 pick, then which one of us is grasping at straws and unrealistically sucking on gumdrops.

Honestly, at this point I have no interest in attempting to convince you anymore. I just want to point out the inherent hypocrisy in your posts on this subject.
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Puhleeze.
None of your "objective data" made a hill of beans when weighed around OTHER, PERSONAL factors, undoubtedly more important to him, that made Donte Greene decide to leave when he did.
Btw- since you love numbers so much- did you know that statistically Tony Romo is a better quarterback then Roger Staubach, and Brittney Spears once sold as many albums as the Beatles? I guess based on the numbers Romo is better, and Brittney's music is equal to the Beatles...no? That sounds logical. :crazy:
Finally, please keep this quote in mind: "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics".
Churn out all the numbers you want- Donte made the RIGHT decision for him, your cherished statistics be damned. :rolleyes:
 
DoctorBombay said:
Puhleeze.
None of your "objective data" made a hill of beans when weighed around OTHER, PERSONAL factors, undoubtedly more important to him, that made Donte Green decide to leave when he did.
Btw- did you know that statistically Tony Romo is a better quarterback then Roger Staubach, and Brittney Spears once sold as many albums as the Beatles. I guess based on the numbers Romo was better, and Brittney's music is equal to the Beatles...no? That sounds logical. :crazy:
Finally, please keep this quote in mind: "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics". Churn out all the numbers you want- Donte made the RIGHT decision for him, your cherished statistics be damned. :rolleyes:
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Laughable. Who said anything about statistics? Addition and subtraction don't require statistics. You can look at what a player like Donte Greene would have earned as a salary had he been the #15 pick [the number you repeatedly referenced last night] versus what he made as the #28 pick, and it was appoximately double. It doesn't require any statistical analysis to understand that math.:crazy:

As for your other irrelevant and completely off the wall examples--very interesting that you've chosen to conveniently hide behind an intentionally vague, subjectively qualitative comparison like "better." Because objectively, I can unequivocally assess whether one player has thrown for more yards or touchdowns, or whether one band has sold more albums than another. Those numbers can't be disputed. :crazy: "Better" doesn't factor in, because it is a subjective assessment. :crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:

"Cherished statistics." Just stop. You've already dug yourself a deep enough hole. :crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:
 
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Bottom line, dude- it's his life, his decision, all your "objective data" means jack-squat in the final analysis.
I'm sure he had plenty of "numbers geeks" whispering in his ear, some who suggested he stay- maybe MOST of them did. But guess what, it wasn't up to them, me, or you.
Keep churning out the data- it'll come in handy the next time another young athlete makes the DECISION to conduct his life the way he wants, while you engage in another diatribe on a random message board telling us how "wrong" he is.
Deal with it.:blah:
 
I think it's clear many people on here do not know anything about the NBA. They should try to avoid discussing it and that includes the draft.
 
DoctorBombay said:
Bottom line, dude- it's his life, his decision, all your "objective data" means jack-squat in the final analysis.
I'm sure he had plenty of "numbers geeks" whispering in his ear, some who suggested he stay- maybe MOST of them did. But guess what, it wasn't up to them, me, or you.
Keep churning out the data- it'll come in handy the next time another young athlete makes the DECISION to conduct his life the way he wants, while you engage in another diatribe on a random message board, related to how "wrong" it all was.
Deal with it.:blah:
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Oy vey... I've had more logical discussions with my three year old. And based upon this thread, its possible that she understands how the NBA draft works better than you appear to.

And just to point out yet another thing you are incorrect about [and there have been plenty throughout this thread], I never said Grant or Greene were "wrong."
 
RF2044 said:
Oy vey... I've had more logical discussions with my three year old. And based upon this thread, its possible that she understands how the NBA draft works better than you appear to.

And just to point out yet another thing you are incorrect about [and there have been plenty throughout this thread], I never said Grant or Greene were "wrong."
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Oh Lord
tonedeaf.jpg
 
AlaskaSU said:
Grant is not an NBA 4. How far he would have risen would have depended on development of 3 skills.
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Exactly. Next year would have been the year it was OK, even expected, that he would be taking those midrange jumpshots. He could have worked on another thing to go with that spin move. He would have been expected to score a lot more. Personally, I think you get better from playing in games.

If you are not a leading player on your team, but you are just a complementary player, I think that's the benchmark for whether or not you should consider coming back - if you are going to be the featured player, and you have a good team around you, you have the chance to blow up in the draft.
 
lol if you think Jim Boeheim will let his players play in a way to improve their NBA draft stock. He plays to win every single game, and we are not winning games with Jerami Grant shooting mid range Js.
 
IthacaMatt said:
Exactly. Next year would have been the year it was OK, even expected, that he would be taking those midrange jumpshots. He could have worked on another thing to go with that spin move. He would have been expected to score a lot more. Personally, I think you get better from playing in games.

If you are not a leading player on your team, but you are just a complementary player, I think that's the benchmark for whether or not you should consider coming back - if you are going to be the featured player, and you have a good team around you, you have the chance to blow up in the draft.
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I think you get better with a jumper in a gym shooting 500 of them a day, not taking 5-10 during a game. Not sure though.
 
docsu said:
How is Grant going to contribute next year? He has almost no offensive game to speak of. He had the physical tools to be a good defender but that hasn't exactly been a calling card of former Syracuse players since Jason Hart.
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Well, it is the 76ers. I actually think he brings a lot to that roster.
 
docsu said:
How is Grant going to contribute next year? He has almost no offensive game to speak of. He had the physical tools to be a good defender but that hasn't exactly been a calling card of former Syracuse players since Jason Hart.
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Wes...fab...Rick...dion...Andy...all good defenders since hart.
 
skurey said:
You should consider making better posts.
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Yeah. How dare I suggest that Donte and Grant both went much lower than expected, and both lost out financially due to things working out that way? How controversial!!!

I should have known better beforehand than to get dragged down into this asinine debate. That you agree with Doctor Bombay's take tells me all I need to know about your NBA "acumen." You should take your advice from above and quit posting about this topic.

Unsubscribe.
 
skurey said:
You are making massive assumptions and hypotheticals and acting as if they are facts.
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Name one assumption I've made on this topic. Please. Go ahead. I'll wait.

I took a draft position--#15--that Doctor Bombay referenced last night in an example when we were debating this topic, and compared that to where Donte was actually drafted. Lo and behold, the NBA rookie salary scale was approximately double at #15 than what it was at #28. Which means that even if Donte had waited a year [thereby reducting his earning years by one], he would have essentially broken even after his rookie season. And made more than he actually did moving forward from that point.

I didn't speculate that Donte would get drafted #15 or higher had he returned [although I do think there is a possibility that this might be the case, we'll never know]. I was using the draft position from DB's example to show him what the salary difference would have been for Greene, and why it might have been better financially for Donte to stay.

The numbers are objective. There were no assumptions. There were no hypotheticals. Facts, not assumptions or false attributions, which is more than I can say for a lot of nonsense being posted in this thread. I didn't say that he was right or wrong, but I do feel comfortable saying that neither Greene nor Grant optimized their financial circumstances by going pro and getting drafted much lower than expected. And I'm not anti- guys going pro--I love it when SU players succeed in the NBA. And I'm a big fan of both Greene and Grant, and will continue to be moving forward. I wasn't angry about either departure, but as an SU fan I AM disappointed that things didn't work out as expected for either player.

You can disagree with my conclusions / opinion, but it isn't accurate to say that my position is based upon assumptions / hypotheticals.
 
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