My Take

[OttoMets]

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Not a good situation. I understand the reasons DC2, Trevor and Grant are not playing but they aren't going to get better on the bench. One suggestion: JB tends to substitute so that Trevor and Grant get on the court together most of the time. That is not a good idea as both are currently what I will call 'offensively challenged'.

Again, my biggest concern over this team is whether we can rebound enough with a front line of JS, CJ and BMK or RC at center to win against good teams. I think we can get away with playing two small forwards with a good rebounding center or a small forward, a legit PF and an average rebounding center but when we play JS, CJ and BMK/RC together, defensive rebounds are really hard to get. We often play solid defense but give up an offensive rebound and a score anyway.
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On the first point, yes. The other three guys need minutes, and the two freshman reserves shouldn't come into the game at the same time as much as they do - run each guy out there alongside four veterans.

Second, an emphatic no. Our season will end early if our front line consists of South, Keita/Christmas, and Fair. They won't rebound or defend well enough against good teams. As in the past three seasons, we have the pieces in place to form a dominating front line. Again, they haven't gotten the reps needed to make them productive, so we're now we're not seeing them in conference play.

With two exhibitions, 13 nonconference games, and a handful of early games against lower- and middle-tier Big East teams, one would think that the McDonald's freshman big guy could have been brought to the point where he can be on the court for at least 25 minutes.

 

[OttoMets]

Thought the officiating was terrible today, not slanted, just let way too much contact go. Looked like they were trying to stage one last BE football game.

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Yeah. Hate that. It's not basketball.

As you said, it didn't seem to favor one team over the other, but there was way too much hitting. Saw one play in the first half where USF got a defensive rebound, both teams turned to run downcourt, and a USF player raised both forearms and tried to lay a block on Fair. Also, Christmas got pounded out there.

All that junk makes the game worse.

 

[Gabjon]

Yeah. Hate that. It's not basketball.

As you said, it didn't seem to favor one team over the other, but there was way too much hitting. Saw one play in the first half where USF got a defensive rebound, both teams turned to run downcourt, and a USF player raised both forearms and tried to lay a block on Fair. Also, Christmas got pounded out there.

All that junk makes the game worse.

It's better than calling every little thing IMO that kills the flow of the game.

 

[tbonezone]

i would have liked to seen coleman on the court pushing around in the paint when they brought in #35 omobigguy

 

[OttoMets]

It's better than calling every little thing IMO that kills the flow of the game.

The game of basketball got along very well for a century with officials adhering to the rules.

 

[Gabjon]

The game of basketball got along very well for a century with officials adhering to the rules.

Please! They call it much tighter today than they did in the 80s and 90s! Derrick Coleman would have been suspended for the season if he hit people today the way he did back then.

 

[jordoo]

JB is always adding new wrinkles to the zone. The center covering the corner more regularly is something that is fairley new and more or less only since Baye has been here (because he can get there) and now Christmas does it as well. Coleman even did it once or twice this season albiet rather ineffectively but that tells me its part if the rotation when we extend like wehave with the wings and trap or try to trap the ball from the FT line extended down to the corner. Its rotating in the zone rather than sliding.

Go to the DVR and watch it over and over again and you see its more orchistrated than it is scrambling. We don't start the game this way but when all a team has is chucking 3's and going after the rebound this has become the strategy. We can get away with it this season because MCW and Brandon are excellent rebounders for guards, CJ and James can cover a lot of space quickly and both Rak and Baye have the speed to get to the weak side corner when the ball goes there.

Anyways the proof is in the pudding. SFU had about 44 points and only 22 in the last 3/4 of the game which is when we really committed to the extended wings up 2-3.

 

[OttoMets]

Please! They call it much tighter today than they did in the 80s and 90s! Derrick Coleman would have been suspended for the season if he hit people today the way he did back then.

No chance. Watch games from that era. There has never been more uncalled contact than there is right now. The game has gotten out of hand in the past ten or fifteen years.

 

[Gabjon]

JB is always adding new wrinkles to the zone. The center covering the corner more regularly is something that is fairley new and more or less only since Baye has been here (because he can get there) and now Christmas does it as well. Coleman even did it once or twice this season albiet rather ineffectively but that tells me its part if the rotation when we extend like wehave with the wings and trap or try to trap the ball from the FT line extended down to the corner. Its rotating in the zone rather than sliding.

Go to the DVR and watch it over and over again and you see its more orchistrated than it is scrambling. We don't start the game this way but when all a team has is chucking 3's and going after the rebound this has become the strategy. We can get away with it this season because MCW and Brandon are excellent rebounders for guards, CJ and James can cover a lot of space quickly and both Rak and Baye have the speed to get to the weak side corner when the ball goes there.

Anyways the proof is in the pudding. SFU had about 44 points and only 22 in the last 3/4 of the game which is when we really committed to the extended wings up 2-3.

Agreed but it's not that new. Hak was playing the middle of the zone when he made "The Block" to win the NC. Of course we don't do it that much with guys who can't make that play. This wrinkle in the zone changes me from not loving the zone to being all in with the zone. I believe if we had this wrinkle in 87 and 96 we would have 3 NCs and not one. Those are the only 2 NC games in history where a player hit 7 3s in the game. Tony Delk 7-12 from 3; and Steve Alford 7-10 from 3. We slow Alford down we win easily in New Orleans and if we slowed Delk down we had a shot in that game. Stopping the 3 ball in today's basketball is must! Especially when true post play is a dying art.

 

[jordoo]

No chance. Watch games from that era. There has never been more uncalled contact than there is right now. The game has gotten out of hand in the past ten or fifteen years.

Agreed! There was more altercations and less punishment for them in dead ball situations but the play it self had much less contact go uncalled IMO especially for long stretched. Yesterday both SU and SFU traded body blows on almost every rebound and they rarely called any fouls on that action.

 

[Gabjon]

No chance. Watch games from that era. There has never been more uncalled contact than there is right now. The game has gotten out of hand in the past ten or fifteen years.

Georgetown of the JT2 years was the most physical hard hitting dirty team ever.

 

[jordoo]

Agreed but it's not that new. Hak was playing the middle of the zone when he made "The Block" to win the NC. Of course we don't do it that much with guys who can't make that play. This wrinkle in the zone changes me from not loving the zone to being all in with the zone. I believe if we had this wrinkle in 87 and 96 we would have 3 NCs and not one. Those are the only 2 NC games in history where a player hit 7 3s in the game. Tony Delk 7-12 from 3; and Steve Alford 7-10 from 3. We slow Alford down we win easily in New Orleans and if we slowed Delk down we had a shot in that game. Stopping the 3 ball in today's basketball is must! Especially when true post play is a dying art.

"The Block" may be the origin of it but I don't think it was part if the zone on 2-3 because no way McNeil or Forth could cover that ground and Hak really rarely played the middle and that was mainly very late in the games. I agree with 87 we did fine with Alford in the first half if memory serves but missed him too many times in the second and that was key for them. I never felt we would win the 96 game but even with Delk we were in it until John fouled out then it was over. We really played the zone much differently back then when you watch of course teams played agaisnt it much differently as well back then.

 

[jordoo]

Georgetown of the JT2 years was the most physical hard hitting dirty team ever.

Here and there but the general play much less contact was allowed without a wistle although you could blast someone and just get a regular foul most of the time as well.

 

[OttoMets]

Georgetown of the JT2 years was the most physical hard hitting dirty team ever.

I'd argue that Pitt teams in the aughts and the Matt Howard Butler teams a couple years ago would give Michael Graham and Ed Spriggs a run for their money, but you're right that Georgetown was physical and dirty.

And Jordoo makes a good point that you may have thought of (and I overlooked): in the '80s and early '90s, throwing punches wasn't the horrible, national-headline-producing mega-event that it has become today. Extracurriculars were exponentially wilder and more vicious in that era.

As far as hand-checking, moving screens, and absolute rugby-style warfare in the low post, there's no comparison between today's game and that of earlier eras. Most players wear pads, for crying out loud. Officials have let the game get out of control and this has contributed to a decline in the quality in play that others have noted.

As for the argument that more whistles would disrupt the flow of the game, yeah, it could. Then the players and coaches would adapt. After a half, a game, or two games, players would say "Hey, fouling out sucks. I'm going to stop hitting the other players." Don't think we'll see that come to pass, though. Like with everything else they touch, the NCAA is asleep at the switch. It has no interest in regulating officials as long as the big CBS checks are rolling in.

 

[sutomcat]

Does Jim Burr ever ref in the ACC?

Jim has historically done Big East and Big Ten games. Over looked over the last 3 years of detail. Over that time, no ACC games.

Jimmy, we hardly knew ye. If hardly means one hundred games or so.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

pass around him????? It can't be done unless he got out of the way for you! If you understand that he will physically be in the way of that pass I don't know what to say. It is physically impossible.

You can pass out of a double team. Yes, I know it's hard, but you can get it around a guy who is essentially a telephone pole. I'm not talking about when he is coming at you, although that is still possible, but when he gets there. Every double team is not successful you know. And when he comes out to the corner, the shortest pass is the block, and if the other wing hasn't rotated over, that's an easy bucket.

 

[jordoo]

You can pass out of a double team. Yes, I know it's hard, but you can get it around a guy who is essentially a telephone pole. I'm not talking about when he is coming at you, although that is still possible, but when he gets there. Every double team is not successful you know. And when he comes out to the corner, the shortest pass is the block, and if the other wing hasn't rotated over, that's an easy bucket.

Plus Keita seems to get called for cheapies when he traps. Yesterday he got one because the offensive player tripped a bit trying to push past him. Shouldn't have been a foul on Baye IMO but it was and he seems to pick them up when he comes out to trap on the sideline. I'd prefer he didn't, while I like when he closes off the baseline out of the lane and the forward comes to trap and I have no problem with him covering the corner when we are playing the zone that way as long as the weak side forward covers the lane and the weak side guard comes down to rebound.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Plus Keita seems to get called for cheapies when he traps. Yesterday he got one because the offensive player tripped a bit trying to push past him. Shouldn't have been a foul on Baye IMO but it was and he seems to pick them up when he comes out to trap on the sideline. I'd prefer he didn't, while I like when he closes off the baseline out of the lane and the forward comes to trap and I have no problem with him covering the corner when we are playing the zone that way as long as the weak side forward covers the lane and the weak side guard comes down to rebound.

I've got no problem if he can help with a trap near or under the basket on the baseline. But when he runs full steam out to the corner, it's a problem. But it's not the only area he does it. He tried to trap/double team someone at the foul line with MCW and BT realized and slid down into the center position - that's not a recipe for success.

And the reason he picks up those fouls is because he comes full steam, can't control himself, and ends up pushing into the player. A lot of times.

 

[BlueCurtain]

I think this is the problem. CJ may be the worst at this.

I also saw Baye try to trap in the corner at least once if not twice. That shouldn't be his play. It should be the guard and the wing with the center staying put to prevent the bail out pass to the middle of the lane.

Bingo and bingo. CJ is either lazy or the coaches are not holding him accountable. Grant also has poor discipline in this regard. They're not being held accountable - because this has nothing to do with foot speed.

Anyone who thinks the center charging the corner is by design is delusional. The only "wrinkle" is JB may be instructing the center to try to bail out the wing man's screw-up. But it doesn't change the fact that it's a scrambling and desperate tactic. This crap won't fly against better teams.

 

[stuckinbig11]

Jim has historically done Big East and Big Ten games. Over looked over the last 3 years of detail. Over that time, no ACC games.

Jimmy, we hardly knew ye. If hardly means one hundred games or so.

Now if we can only avoid him in non-conference games.

 

[Antiprodigy]

I don't understand all the angst here. SU won by 11 pts on a 55pt game! That is a blowout (well, at least a sound beating). It is the equivalent to a 17 pt win when they score 85pts.

Sure the game was close, but when you only score 55 pts, you aren't going to beat anyone by 20 pts. It just doesn't happen.

Defense is what this team is doing well at, right now. Not great, but well. Offense is where the angst should really be pointed.

USF is a decent team. It is full of upperclassmen.

It was an away league game for a relatively young team. And, if you could wipe out USF's start, they scored 30 freakin' points the rest of the game!!!

 

[cusetown1]

I don't understand all the angst here. SU won by 11 pts on a 55pt game! That is a blowout (well, at least a sound beating). It is the equivalent to a 17 pt win when they score 85pts.

Sure the game was close, but when you only score 55 pts, you aren't going to beat anyone by 20 pts. It just doesn't happen.

Defense is what this team is doing well at, right now. Not great, but well. Offense is where the angst should really be pointed.

USF is a decent team. It is full of upperclassmen.

It was an away league game for a relatively young team. And, if you could wipe out USF's start, they scored 30 freakin' points the rest of the game!!!

We give up the least amount of points per possession defensively in the country.

 

[Antiprodigy]

I think that there is room for defensive improvement with this team, but I did want to make a point that the defense was doing well. Most of the posts in this thread were about issues with defensive positioning, hence my attempt get people to loosen up a bit.

Apparently, giving up the fewest points is not good enough. (I am not fact checking you, taking your word on this cusetown1)

 

[moqui]

A smartly coached team will be instructed to pump fake when the center comes flying out to the wing. Then they can either draw the foul or drive uncontested to the hoop. Either way, once the wing over-commits, they are one-step behind. It's like a house cat trying to catch a laser pointer.

I'm not sure if it's an ill-conceived coaching strategy in an attempt to trade 3s for 2s, or not holding the wings accountable for over-pursuit.

the wings aren't "over pursuing" and this isn't football. They are simply meeting their zone responsibilities. Shooters have to be accounted for. Overloading one side with shooters has been a tactic against the 2-3 for years (it is Pitino's preferred approach). It flexes the zone and puts pressure on the rotations. If the pass to the corner is crisp and the strong side forward can't recover, then the center has to cover the corner and the weak side forward has to rotate down.

 

[BlueCurtain]

the wings aren't "over pursuing"

Pitino and I would disagree.