NBA Playoffs

[Cusefan0307]

Ellenson would fit well in Milwaukee. They have plenty of good to great defenders. They need shooting/scoring.

 

[RF2044]

Being big enough means nothing. Do you see how much switching there is? Do you see how disciplined you need to be? How much athleticism you need?

If he can dribble, great. Like I said, you better be getting Melo-like production on offense. Because if you have a big that can't play defense, you shouldn't be drafting him at #3. It's a waste of a pick. You get on the floor with defense. You become a star with offense. It happens in that order. Also, the guy has a questionable motor, which paired with poor defense, makes him chicken bbq in the nba.

We shall see. Not every player is cut from the same cookie cutter mold--that shouldn't have to be explained.

That's why teams like Sacramento always draft poorly, the go for athletic profiles / archetypes above all else.

Ellenson is plenty athletic. "Questionable motor" is boiler plate used by NBA analysts, not based upon reality with this kid. If he lands with the right team, he could be a sensational player, while a guy like Chriss who checks every box with the athleticism / lateral mobility could go on to be a dud like Stromile Swift. Take a look at Boston's roster and look at their big guys. Then you'll understand why they need a difference maker who can play stretch 4 or 5.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

I think it's going to work the other way. Start the death lineup and see Draymond get tired. If Kerr still has no faith in Ezeli, that means Barnes is still the backup C.

And, please, more Varejao. I think his Cleveland teammates loved him, as did the fans, but LeBron's eyes lit up like the 30 Rock Christmas tree when he saw his buddy Anderson on the other team.

Varejao's easily in double figures -- for flops -- if he gets even just a little more p.t.

Bogut's blocked a lotta shots, he's one less important piece in the lineup, no way this is good for GS.

 

[Knicks411]

His "six player draft" is a media thing. They always label a draft X number of players. It's ridiculous.

There are plenty of guys that can be competent rotation players and even starters through #35 or so. They just need to be put into the right position.

But there aren't going to be six guys that are multiple all stars in this draft. Maybe Simmons. Maybe Ingram. Maybe Murray (even though I don't think this will be the case). There are never as many good players as the prognosticators think or talk about. Ever.

I was curious; looking at famous drafts. The 2003 draft had 9 guys who made an all star team (including Chris Kaman). 5 made more than 1 (Melo, James, Wade, Bosh, and David West). 1984 had 7 all stars, 5 of whom made more than 1 AS team. 98 also had 5 multi time AS (Jamison, Vince, Dirk, Pierce, and Rashard Lewis) 85 had a bunch, i count 6 (Ewing, Malone, Dumars, Detlef, Terry Porter, and Chris Mullin, plus a special case in Sabonis). 1996 might be the winner, I have 10, including Ben Wallace, who wasn't drafted. (Wallace, Iverson, Ray Allen, Antoine Walker, Kobe, Peja, Nash, Jermaine O'Neal, Illgauskus, Marbury)

By the same token, the 2000 draft had no one selected to more than 1 AS game.

 

[RF2044]

I was curious; looking at famous drafts. The 2003 draft had 9 guys who made an all star team (including Chris Kaman). 5 made more than 1 (Melo, James, Wade, Bosh, and David West). 1984 had 7 all stars, 5 of whom made more than 1 AS team. 98 also had 5 multi time AS (Jamison, Vince, Dirk, Pierce, and Rashard Lewis) 85 had a bunch, i count 6 (Ewing, Malone, Dumars, Detlef, Terry Porter, and Chris Mullin, plus a special case in Sabonis). 1996 might be the winner, I have 10, including Ben Wallace, who wasn't drafted. (Wallace, Iverson, Ray Allen, Antoine Walker, Kobe, Peja, Nash, Jermaine O'Neal, Illgauskus, Marbury)

By the same token, the 2000 draft had no one selected to more than 1 AS game.

That's pretty unbelievable [1996]. Even factoring out that Walker / Mabury were both overrated, that level of quality is difficult to fathom -- especially when you consider that Kobe went #13, Peja went #14, Nash went #15, Jermaine O'Neal went #17, and Ilgauskas went #20. That's two hall of famers and three guys who were high major impact players / difference making starters on contending teams for approaching a decade.

Rare level of quality that late.

 

[MikeSU02]

I was curious; looking at famous drafts. The 2003 draft had 9 guys who made an all star team (including Chris Kaman). 5 made more than 1 (Melo, James, Wade, Bosh, and David West). 1984 had 7 all stars, 5 of whom made more than 1 AS team. 98 also had 5 multi time AS (Jamison, Vince, Dirk, Pierce, and Rashard Lewis) 85 had a bunch, i count 6 (Ewing, Malone, Dumars, Detlef, Terry Porter, and Chris Mullin, plus a special case in Sabonis). 1996 might be the winner, I have 10, including Ben Wallace, who wasn't drafted. (Wallace, Iverson, Ray Allen, Antoine Walker, Kobe, Peja, Nash, Jermaine O'Neal, Illgauskus, Marbury)

By the same token, the 2000 draft had no one selected to more than 1 AS game.

Yeah, that's why I always say multiple all star - because people can sneak into a 1x thing (like IT on Boston, maybe). I'm glad you separated it out.

But you just nailed the best drafts of all time (would argue 84, 96 and 03 are the very best).

I just don't think that's the case with this year's draft. Next year, however... I think could be *very* good.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

There are never as many good players as the prognosticators think or talk about. Ever.

Yeah, I feel like the number of stars gets overrated, and the number of serviceable guys get underrated.

I heard this on the radio, but the NBA guy that was on the sports radio show I listened to said you look at guys like Sabonis or Valentine, and they don't excite anybody, but they look like safe bets to become rotational players that can give you a decent 15 minutes a game off the bench, and while they're on their rookie deals they'll take up 2% of your cap, meaning you can pay your core/be a hunter in free agency and still have decent depth.

It's interesting how the rookie scale deals are locked in even with the cap increasing. Rookie deals carry even more value proportionally over the next little bit.

 

[Knicks411]

That's pretty unbelievable [1996]. Even factoring out that Walker / Mabury were both overrated, that level of quality is difficult to fathom -- especially when you consider that Kobe went #13, Peja went #14, Nash went #15, Jermaine O'Neal went #17, and Ilgauskas went #20. That's two hall of famers and three guys who were high major impact players / difference making starters on contending teams for approaching a decade.

Rare level of quality that late.

That run was incredible; and the Knicks had 3 first round picks that started basically as soon as that run ended...

Wanted to mention Marcus Camby, who was #2 in that draft but never even made one AS team. hell of a player, I'd argue he had a better career than at least a few of the all stars that went right after him (Toine, Marbury, Shareef).

The 87 draft was another good one, probably not to the level of some of the others. 4 multiple time AS; David Robinson, Pippen, Reggie Miller, and Kevin Johnson, plus Horace Grant and Mark Jackson, plus who knows, Reggie Lewis may have made more than 1 AS game if not for the tragedy.

How about the 90 draft? Gary Payton, all time great, and then 3 guys who made 1 AS team; Derrick Coleman, Tyone Hill, and Jayson Williams.

I could probably do this all afternoon, so I'll stop

 

[Knicks411]

Yeah, I feel like the number of stars gets overrated, and the number of serviceable guys get underrated.

I heard this on the radio, but the NBA guy that was on the sports radio show I listened to said you look at guys like Sabonis or Valentine, and they don't excite anybody, but they look like safe bets to become rotational players that can give you a decent 15 minutes a game off the bench, and while they're on their rookie deals they'll take up 2% of your cap, meaning you can pay your core/be a hunter in free agency and still have decent depth.

It's interesting how the rookie scale deals are locked in even with the cap increasing. Rookie deals carry even more value proportionally over the next little bit.

Somewhat related; but in the threads about if guys should leave early or not, there's the talk of how only 2 years are fully guaranteed and the next 2 are options. This dynamic means those rookie options are even more likely to be picked up now. Small thing, but worth pointing out. But even getting a guy who is your second guy off the bench or something; that might go for $8-10 million in the FA market, or 2 million or less in the draft.

 

[MikeSU02]

That run was incredible; and the Knicks had 3 first round picks that started basically as soon as that run ended...

Wanted to mention Marcus Camby, who was #2 in that draft but never even made one AS team. hell of a player, I'd argue he had a better career than at least a few of the all stars that went right after him (Toine, Marbury, Shareef).

The 87 draft was another good one, probably not to the level of some of the others. 4 multiple time AS; David Robinson, Pippen, Reggie Miller, and Kevin Johnson, plus Horace Grant and Mark Jackson, plus who knows, Reggie Lewis may have made more than 1 AS game if not for the tragedy.

How about the 90 draft? Gary Payton, all time great, and then 3 guys who made 1 AS team; Derrick Coleman, Tyone Hill, and Jayson Williams.

I could probably do this all afternoon, so I'll stop

I consider Scottie Pippen to be the most underrated player of all time. I could post about him all day.

 

[Knicks411]

I consider Scottie Pippen to be the most underrated player of all time. I could post about him all day.

his 94 season without Jordan was amazing and showed what he could do as the #1 guy.

 

[MikeSU02]

his 94 season without Jordan was amazing and showed what he could do as the #1 guy.

He's the greatest wing defender, ever.

Was the first point forward of contemporary basketball (I always caveat this because I feel like Oscar never gets his due credit for what he could do).

You can see his influence on Kawhi (runner up MVP) and even LeBron to an extent.

OK, I'll stop.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

I just gave 10 bucks. Seems like a good cause.

 

[Cusefan0307]

oof... brutal

 

[Fireball Jr.]

Straightforward, simple, excellent read. How ‘underdog’ LeBron can redefine his career

 

[OrangeDW]

his 94 season without Jordan was amazing and showed what he could do as the #1 guy.

It was...until it wasn't. Sitting out and sulking because the last shot wasn't designed for him in the playoffs showed the downside of him as a #1 guy. But overall he played very well that year, no question.

 

[OrangeDW]

He's the greatest wing defender, ever.

Was the first point forward of contemporary basketball (I always caveat this because I feel like Oscar never gets his due credit for what he could do).

You can see his influence on Kawhi (runner up MVP) and even LeBron to an extent.

OK, I'll stop.

Paul Pressey did it before Pippen.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Slow day at work so I was doing some research on Basketball Reference, specifically looking at Win Shares/48 minutes, which is a stat that shows what a players value is when on the court. MJ is obviously number one all time in this stat, not surprising.

What I did find surprising is Chris Paul is number one amongst active players, ahead of both Lebron and Steph. After the usual suspects like Duncan, Dirk, Durant and Harden coming in at number 9 amongst active players is Kevin Love! He's 32nd all time. Everyone in the top 40 of this stat is a Hall of Famer besides Sidney Moncrief, who's career was cut short because of injury.

I'm not sure if this shows that Win Shares is a flawed stat or not, but it implies he's better than a lot of people think he is.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Slow day at work so I was doing some research on Basketball Reference, specifically looking at Win Shares/48 minutes, which is a stat that shows what a players value is when on the court. MJ is obviously number one all time in this stat, not surprising.

What I did find surprising is Chris Paul is number one amongst active players, ahead of both Lebron and Steph. After the usual suspects like Duncan, Dirk, Durant and Harden coming in at number 9 amongst active players is Kevin Love! He's 32nd all time. Everyone in the top 40 of this stat is a Hall of Famer besides Sidney Moncrief, who's career was cut short because of injury.

I'm not sure if this shows that Win Shares is a flawed stat or not, but it implies he's better than a lot of people think he is.

 

[Briancuse]

I just gave 10 bucks. Seems like a good cause.

How come no one will pay me to sit?

 

[Knicks411]

It was...until it wasn't. Sitting out and sulking because the last shot wasn't designed for him in the playoffs showed the downside of him as a #1 guy. But overall he played very well that year, no question.

Yeah that's a good point, that one is really hard to defend. There was no pattern of it, but still; not good.

 

[OrangeDW]

Yeah that's a good point, that one is really hard to defend. There was no pattern of it, but still; not good.

Couldnt blame him for being pissed for it not going to him, but...do your job and try to help the team win the game. Too big of a moment. Take your issues up with the coach later.

The 2nd 3 peat kind of washed that away, but certainly a bad moment and a big knock on him as the top guy on a team.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'm not sure if this shows that Win Shares is a flawed stat or not, but it implies he's better than a lot of people think he is.

Well, considering that the bulk of Love's career has been losing, I'm going with flawed stat.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

oof... brutal

I shared that with someone I know who's deeply involved with social media for the NBA. That's pretty much what he said.

I'd be happy seeing Love and Delly (my bromance with him is over) elsewhere next year, but, for tonight and I hope one more night this season, I’m glad the Cavs have Mike Love's nephew. He’s capable of having some big moments. plus, he sets picks and rebounds and throws the greatest 3/4-court overhead pass since Wesley Unseld and Big Red. Love also poses defensive matchup issues for Sir Kerr, Little Luke, et al. He is, if nothing else, a $113 million decoy.

 

[Alsacs]

I shared that with someone I know who's deeply involved with social media for the NBA. That's pretty much what he said.

I'd be happy seeing Love and Delly (my bromance with him is over) elsewhere next year, but, for tonight and I hope one more night this season, I’m glad the Cavs have Mike Love's nephew. He’s capable of having some big moments. plus, he sets picks and rebounds and throws the greatest 3/4-court overhead pass since Wesley Unseld and Big Red. Love also poses defensive matchup issues for Sir Kerr, Little Luke, et al. He is, if nothing else, a $113 million decoy.

Cleveland fans on SportsCenter disagree with you. They are comparing Love to Oscar the Grouch or are calling him trash.