Not to keep beating a dead horse but (Ticket Sales)

[JeremyCuse]

That will probably never change. This town only has probably 20,000 die hard fans.

Yup and with an aging population I dont see that number getting much bigger unless the government adds SU tickets the allready crazy list of stuff welfare covers in NY.

 

[cmr27]

Maybe people are over-analyzing this a little. How much of the low attendance is just attributable to the bad economy? The impact on the economic downturn has been harder on CNY than other parts of the country, such as Texas and the South. People have less discretionary income than they did in the late 1980s and 1990s when attendance was materially higher. It's easy to say people should pony up and find a way to get to the games to support SU and the community but those dollars-and-cents decisions are difficult in a tough economy.

I don't think anyone would dispute the a stronger economy would put more fannies in the seats. The question then is how much is that worth in ticket attendance? Even a 10% bump would make a material difference to the bottom line and recruits' perception of the program. There's not a lot that SU can do to control this, however. And SU is not the only sports outfit dealing with this. A lot of professional sports teams are feeling the same pinch, which I suppose feeds the notion that SU really is a college town that operates like a professional sports town in reality.

Not to say the other issues listed here are not legitimate. Things like "anti-SU bias" in the community may be real but are tough to quantify. Reduced spending power for fans is not, however.

 

[rrlbees]

Maybe people are over-analyzing this a little. How much of the low attendance is just attributable to the bad economy? The impact on the economic downturn has been harder on CNY than other parts of the country, such as Texas and the South. People have less discretionary income than they did in the late 1980s and 1990s when attendance was materially higher. It's easy to say people should pony up and find a way to get to the games to support SU and the community but those dollars-and-cents decisions are difficult in a tough economy.

I don't think anyone would dispute the a stronger economy would put more fannies in the seats. The question then is how much is that worth in ticket attendance? Even a 10% bump would make a material difference to the bottom line and recruits' perception of the program. There's not a lot that SU can do to control this, however. And SU is not the only sports outfit dealing with this. A lot of professional sports teams are feeling the same pinch, which I suppose feeds the notion that SU really is a college town that operates like a professional sports town in reality.

Not to say the other issues listed here are not legitimate. Things like "anti-SU bias" in the community may be real but are tough to quantify. Reduced spending power for fans is not, however.

That is true also. There are several moving parts that have had and are having an impact.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Economy in Syracuse has sucked for 20 years... Win games, the attendance will go back to where it was durig the McNabb years and that is about where you are going to max out. It has never been or never will be that great

 

[Orangeyes]

I never undestood how someone could be a basketball only, it just makes no sense to me. What do they do forget we have a football team or bury there heads in sand for three months? If anything being an SU fan you would think they woudl branch out to Lax and other National sports, hell Orangeyes started going to SU women softball games in the spring for christ sake.

Tomcat accompanied me to a couple of games too, several members of the football team also attended. The squad, under the able leadership of Leigh Ross, plays solid fundamentally. They are a borderline top 25 team in the nation and had their first NCAA Regional win over SEC power LSU. They rolled Louisville both here and in the Big East Championship at the Cardinals playpen. My granddaughter saw her first college softball game in the home finale. She got to go down on the field, interact with the players, who couldn't have been more gracious and met the head coach. Coach Ross allowed her to run the bases, if you know my granddaughter once wasn't enough. The topper was her slide into home which had everyone laughing. She is five years old and a can't miss prospect.

 

[BlackKnight76]

Tomcat accompanied me to a couple of games too, several members of the football team also attended. The squad, under the able leadership of Leigh Ross, plays solid fundamentally. They are a borderline top 25 team in the nation and had their first NCAA Regional win over SEC power LSU. They rolled Louisville both here and in the Big East Championship at the Cardinals playpen. My granddaughter saw her first college softball game in the home finale. She got to go down on the field, interact with the players, who couldn't have been more gracious and met the head coach. Coach Ross allowed her to run the bases, if you know my granddaughter once wasn't enough. The topper was her slide into home which had everyone laughing. She is five years old and a can't miss prospect.

I didn't get to any softball games, but I've been to a large number of Field Hockey, Ice Hockey, Volleyball, Women's Basketball, Soccer and other games over the last few years. It's just natural to root for your school, no matter the sport.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Whoa, whoa. I am not liking the look of this. If GoCuse44 wants to say that the good people of South Carolina loves themselves some Gamecocks, well then by all means, GoCuse44 should be able to say that the good people of South Carolina loves themselves some Gamecocks without any fear of censorship. And on that note, who doesn't love themselves some Gamecocks on a fall Saturday afternoon?

Communists, that's who. A communist wouldn't know a Gamecock if a Gamecock came up and bit them on the nose.

Is this board not hosted in America?

This post isn't as funny anymore.

 

[Rocco]

This is a very depressing thread, yet many great points are made within. With the declining middle and upper-middle class populations in CNY, I don't think we will ever see great crowds again. Maybe if we were a top 5 team, but I just really don't ever see us consistently drawing 48k+/game. It sucks, but it is close to the truth.

 

[OttoMets]

The impact on the economic downturn has been harder on CNY than other parts of the country

One could argue that a down economy would keep fans away. But it's not true that the economic downturn has been worse in Central New York than in other parts of the country. Quite the contrary, in fact.

 

[CUSEBB1]

I was born and raised right here in the CUSE,And i must say cny'ers have got to be the most negative, trash ur own city and sports team i have ever heard of.And the syracuse.com forums and discussions on articles just proves the fact.I just can't hate anything about SU or the city i was born and raised in.I love this place and all that SU brings to this city and cny.

 

[cmr27]

One could argue that a down economy would keep fans away. But it's not true that the economic downturn has been worse in Central New York than in other parts of the country. Quite the contrary, in fact.

You think so? It might depend on the timeline used. I'm looking over a 20-year timeline with the outsourcing/offshoring of the industrial economy having a disproportionate impact on CNY. Pretty sure CNY income and job creation has trailed national averages during that time. To tie this back to sports, the diehards will still come out -- and we definitely have fewer diehards than the land grant schools -- but it's the casual fan who stays home in the bad economy because. "Event games" are in the eye of the beholder, and the casual fans will perceive fewer of them when times are tight. Again, this isn't to discount everything else people have said. Just one factor/food for thought.

One other question is what the schools expects to gain locally by playing games in the Meadowlands. Gross obviously thinks he's increasing SU's prestige and appealing to NYC alums by playing in NYC. Somebody needs to put a dollar value on what's worse in terms of projected gains (or losses) in local attendance in coming years. The strategy has to translate into higher attendance in the Carrier Dome and/or a higher quality of football (the thinking being that one leads to the other). It's a bit of a waste, otherwise.

I do wonder how the AD's office defines success with the Meadowlands experiment and hope someone has laid out those parameters up front.

 

[MCuse44]

Perfect Storm:

Program declining under PP
Buzz tells the locals to get a life, one horse town, deal with it.
Conference gets raided - loss in prestige, quality of opponents
GROB HAPPENS (all i will say about that)

In the span of a few years you went from regularly watching miam, v tech, bc, plus 2-3 quality OOC to usf, uconn, louisville, cinnci (who used to be the crap OOC teams we scheduled) plus 2 crappy and 1 quality OOC. And on top of that the worst SU team most have ever seen.

All the while people have more access to watch anything they want. Proving old buzz wrong and enjoying every minute of that. Add in the dynamic of the university vs the "townies". A ton of weekday games to get the out of towners, people with kids, or weird work hours people all jazzed up. Then sprinkle in a horrible economy.

Seriously. What else can happen to dilute the fan base further.

 

[SmilinBob]

A lot has happened good and bad around Syracuse and that's all well and good but now we have a good coach and staff in place and it's time to support them. It seems like such a catch 22 you can't win/recruit without a big crowd and you can't get a big crowd if you don't win/recruit. I don't like these weekday games either but I'd like to see 45K at the Dome minimum and it's very frustrating for me as a fan to watch this kids and staff break their butts and play to 35K and have a bunch of fair weathered fans wait to see if this team can win before they commit to going.

This reminds of watching a game at the Dome in basketball, the fans have to have the team do something exciting first then they somewhat get into it. I just do not understand why the crowds here just can't be the first one to make the leap of faith and support (football) and cheer (hoops) before they have solid proof something good is happening.

 

[MCuse44]

Here's a sample of private schools, capacity and whether they sell out games:

Duke doesnt sell out their 34k stadium.
Boston College doesnt sell out their 44k stadium.
Cincinnati doesnt sell out their 35k stadium.
Vanderbilt doesnt sell out their 40K stadium.
Miami doesnt sell out their 75k stadium.

The teams above sell out maybe 1 game a year and its the best on the schedule. And if you look at the numbers high 30's is normal for a private school.

I feel like this issue is overblown.

 

[MCuse44]

Challenge!

I'd like to know what private university regularly gets over 40K attendance thats not in a major population center. And do they sell out their stadium regularly.

Here's a sample of private schools, capacity and whether they sell out games:

Duke doesnt sell out their 34k stadium.
Boston College doesnt sell out their 44k stadium.
Cincinnati doesnt sell out their 35k stadium.
Vanderbilt doesnt sell out their 40K stadium.
Miami doesnt sell out their 75k stadium.

The teams above sell out maybe 1 game a year and its the best on the schedule. And if you look at the numbers high 30's is normal for a private school.

I feel like this issue is overblown.

 

[Tornado91]

Notre Dame. USC. Those are the only two that immediately come to mind. Even Stanford struggles with <50k capacity.

 

[SmilinBob]

Here's a sample of private schools, capacity and whether they sell out games:

Duke doesnt sell out their 34k stadium.
Boston College doesnt sell out their 44k stadium.
Cincinnati doesnt sell out their 35k stadium.
Vanderbilt doesnt sell out their 40K stadium.
Miami doesnt sell out their 75k stadium.

The teams above sell out maybe 1 game a year and its the best on the schedule. And if you look at the numbers high 30's is normal for a private school.

I feel like this issue is overblown.

Duke has struggled for many years and one of the worst AQ teams in all time wins. BC, Cincy, Vandy and Miami are near or in NFL markets. It may have been overblown but the fact that basketball can get 33000 people says that it is possible for this area to draw well.

 

[Guinness]

I never undestood how someone could be a basketball only, it just makes no sense to me. .

I think a lot of has to do with the availability on TV and where you live. Living in NC I don't need any special packages to watch the basketball games as they are carried by ESPN all the time. Other than the cupcake part of the schedule almost every conference game is carried somewhere I can easily access. It makes it easier to invest in a team when you can watch them on a regular basis. Up until recently that has not been the case with football. At best I was able to see 2 maybe 3 games a year as the SEC and ACC games dominate the airwaves down here. The ESPN3 webpage has been a nice surprise and I am hoping that the new BE TV deal will bring more opportunity for the fans not living in the NE to watch the games.

 

[MCuse44]

Yea ND is the exception for sure, but people travel there like its some sort of yearly/holy pilgrimage.

USC = LA, 2nd largest market...67x the size of syracuse and doesnt sell out 94k stadium.
Stanford = SF and still doesnt sell out 50K.

These are really good teams, in huge markets too.

My points are these:
1) Were not all that different then similar schools
2) the syracuse fanbase if anything has out performed its fellow private schools for a long time and we got spoiled
3) Things are fine and will only get better regarding attendance.

 

[Boston Tiger]

This is a very interesting thread for me, since I was hooked from the very first football game I attended at LSU. I have a feeling that the Syracuse athletic administration will have to commit to working to get the die-hard basketball fans to adopt football as their other sport. I know that LSU did that with their baseball program many years ago. The coach had to run all sorts of different promotions to get fans butts in the seats. That worked, and there are now some LSU fans who enjoy baseball more than football. But it took a long time to build that fan base.

The point someone made about the lack of passion for HS football in NY state was very good, since I've noticed similar things in the Boston area. I was shocked the first time I went to a local high school game, since this was so different from HS football in the deep south.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

This is a very interesting thread for me, since I was hooked from the very first football game I attended at LSU. I have a feeling that the Syracuse athletic administration will have to commit to working to get the die-hard basketball fans to adopt football as their other sport. I know that LSU did that with their baseball program many years ago. The coach had to run all sorts of different promotions to get fans butts in the seats. That worked, and there are now some LSU fans who enjoy baseball more than football. But it took a long time to build that fan base.

The point someone made about the lack of passion for HS football in NY state was very good, since I've noticed similar things in the Boston area. I was shocked the first time I went to a local high school game, since this was so different from HS football in the deep south.

Well, if you look back in history, SU was football way before it was Bball (1959 national champs, Ernie Davis, Jim Brown, etc.). Basketball only came with Boeheim in the 1970s. But, yes, football is not religion in the north. Lots of other things to do.

 

[OttoMets]

You think so? It might depend on the timeline used. I'm looking over a 20-year timeline with the outsourcing/offshoring of the industrial economy having a disproportionate impact on CNY. Pretty sure CNY income and job creation has trailed national averages during that time. .

Sorry, I didn't read carefully enough. You're right about those things. I don't doubt there's a strong connection between union manufacturing jobs and Syracuse football season ticketholders. That may have peaked 15 years ago, and I'm afraid we won't return to that level.

 

[OttoMets]

1) Were not all that different then similar schools
2) the syracuse fanbase if anything has out performed its fellow private schools for a long time and we got spoiled
3) Things are fine and will only get better regarding attendance.

I'm inclined to agree with this. We're more comparable to Northwestern than Penn State, and I think we compare favorably with them.

Still, SmilinBob's sentiment strikes a chord: it pains me to have those guys come out to a sea of empty aluminum every week. I don't feel as strongly about this and fans' treatment of our basketball team (small and quiet crowds for all but the "event" games), but this bunch works very hard and really does deserve better from the community. Preaching to the choir here of course.

 

[orangehomer]

New Rule: if you post "not to beat a dead horse" in the subject line, you are by default beating a dead horse.

that said i agree with your points. i also think that success of this program will be a cyclical thing, and we are in a down cycle. this program has lost a generation of fans, i don't mean kids, i mean young professionals with money and time, who have no interest in the team because, quite frankly, they were no fun to watch. the generation that was in their 20's while SU sucked is not going to be suddenly interested in their 30's, their lives have changed, they don't "have time", but more importantly they just don't care.

 

[690West]

I don't think we will ever see great crowds again. Maybe if we were a top 5 team, but I just really don't ever see us consistently drawing 48k+/game. It sucks, but it is close to the truth.

Seven years later, we’re not top 5, but we’re top 15 and we’re struggling to hit 40k this Friday. Rocco said “maybe”. Nope.