#notncaaproperty

[miamicuse]

This is an exceedingly complicated issue with a huge can of worms and that's probably when NCAA has not done anything. Once they do something there are slippery slopes 360 degrees all the way around.

Team sports makes it even messier. Football and basketball more so because it is difficult to separate individual "likeness" and team "likeness". Basketball is the hardest at least in football you have more players in a team and you are wearing helmets.

The first thing that comes to my mind would be a recruit will demand a minimum play time commitment from the coaches on games, more so on nationally televised games because he needs to maintain or enhance his NIL. Imagine a guy on a bench telling a coach that "my mother can't pay her mortgage next month because of your action of sitting me on the pine resulting in preventing me in getting proper exposure to make money off my NIL".

There are also some misconceptions here. Some suggested that an NCAA athlete cannot get paid period, this is false. They cannot get paid doing THAT sport. A NCAA tennis scholarship student can work as a pizza delivery person and get paid, a tennis player can even participate in a pro tournament event and get price money, as long as it's less than $10000 per year. In fact you can even be a pro in one sport and get paid while being an amateur in another. In 2010, Kyle Parker was Clemson's quarterback after he got a $1.4 million signing bonus from the Colorado Rockies. Russell Wilson had a $200,000 signing bonus with the Rockies, some of which he had to return to the club when he left to play quarterback at Wisconsin. Roscoe Crosby had a $1.75 million signing bonus from the Kansas City Royals while a Clemson wide receiver in the early 2000s.

These are exceptions of course, but the point is NCAA is not telling the students not to work period. In fact many tennis players on the pro circuits attend college part time, they just pay for college and not sign away their option to earn price money during college.

This means today, a basketball player can potentially be a walk on to a college BB team and play in the G League or oversea summer league or compete in tournaments with price money.

One example someone earlier gave was why can't a BB player make money off a tweet? Actually you can. Minnesota wrestler Joel Bauman tested the NCAA in 2013 by promoting that he was an NCAA wrestler on a music video he produced. Bauman declined to remove his name from any songs and eliminate any promotion of his status as an NCAA athlete. He got declared ineligible, a firestorm erupted, and he brilliantly turned the publicity into a marketing job. If he had made a music video without bringing in NCAA or Minnesota wrestling, and made money off the video it would have been OK.

The whole issue is with lumping NCAA and the college and the team into your tweet or video or media you are profiting off. I am guessing the NCAA has a hard time figuring out how to draw a line between to what extent the individual player begins and where the team, school and NCAA ends. Individual sports like tennis and running is less challenging, team sports get tricky.

I am not saying NCAA should not allow the students to get paid based on NIL, it's just it's a mess the size of a five gallon bucket of S***.

Now, didn't the NCAA hired Condolezza Rice and formed some committee a few years back to sort out complex issues including this one?

 

[Scooch]

The idea that some of “you don’t want this to ruin college sports” while 2 guys just paid a 10 million dollar buy out to their bb coach is lol funny.

Pssst...I want to let you in on a secret. Alabama being in the championship game every year in football doesn’t happen in a fair system. Nothing about the current system is fair. Money is already in play. It just isn’t going to the players in the open...yet

Seriously. College football and the Power 5 is the very definition of a cartel. Cocaine producers are jealous of how well it is protected.

 

[FloridaFan]

Doug has thoughts

Doug is wrong. Plain and simple

 

[FloridaFan]

This is an exceedingly complicated issue with a huge can of worms and that's probably when NCAA has not done anything. Once they do something there are slippery slopes 360 degrees all the way around.

Team sports makes it even messier. Football and basketball more so because it is difficult to separate individual "likeness" and team "likeness". Basketball is the hardest at least in football you have more players in a team and you are wearing helmets.

The first thing that comes to my mind would be a recruit will demand a minimum play time commitment from the coaches on games, more so on nationally televised games because he needs to maintain or enhance his NIL. Imagine a guy on a bench telling a coach that "my mother can't pay her mortgage next month because of your action of sitting me on the pine resulting in preventing me in getting proper exposure to make money off my NIL".

There are also some misconceptions here. Some suggested that an NCAA athlete cannot get paid period, this is false. They cannot get paid doing THAT sport. A NCAA tennis scholarship student can work as a pizza delivery person and get paid, a tennis player can even participate in a pro tournament event and get price money, as long as it's less than $10000 per year. In fact you can even be a pro in one sport and get paid while being an amateur in another. In 2010, Kyle Parker was Clemson's quarterback after he got a $1.4 million signing bonus from the Colorado Rockies. Russell Wilson had a $200,000 signing bonus with the Rockies, some of which he had to return to the club when he left to play quarterback at Wisconsin. Roscoe Crosby had a $1.75 million signing bonus from the Kansas City Royals while a Clemson wide receiver in the early 2000s.

These are exceptions of course, but the point is NCAA is not telling the students not to work period. In fact many tennis players on the pro circuits attend college part time, they just pay for college and not sign away their option to earn price money during college.

This means today, a basketball player can potentially be a walk on to a college BB team and play in the G League or oversea summer league or compete in tournaments with price money.

One example someone earlier gave was why can't a BB player make money off a tweet? Actually you can. Minnesota wrestler Joel Bauman tested the NCAA in 2013 by promoting that he was an NCAA wrestler on a music video he produced. Bauman declined to remove his name from any songs and eliminate any promotion of his status as an NCAA athlete. He got declared ineligible, a firestorm erupted, and he brilliantly turned the publicity into a marketing job. If he had made a music video without bringing in NCAA or Minnesota wrestling, and made money off the video it would have been OK.

The whole issue is with lumping NCAA and the college and the team into your tweet or video or media you are profiting off. I am guessing the NCAA has a hard time figuring out how to draw a line between to what extent the individual player begins and where the team, school and NCAA ends. Individual sports like tennis and running is less challenging, team sports get tricky.

I am not saying NCAA should not allow the students to get paid based on NIL, it's just it's a mess the size of a five gallon bucket of S***.

Now, didn't the NCAA hired Condolezza Rice and formed some committee a few years back to sort out complex issues including this one?

But why is there a limit of 10k on the tennis player. If they are in college and compete in enough tournaments they should get to make as much as they want. Are there restrictions on a musician as to how much they can make a year?

 

[Orangezoo]

Doug wouldn't have needed extra credit cards with someone else's name on them

 

[UpstateSM]

Why? They provide the resources, the facilities, the funding to do his work. Should they not own it?

Would you argue a scientist for Johnson & Johnson owns any of his discoveries?

That’s an interesting question. I think it depends on the nature of the work/discoveries. I’m hesitant to use a phrase like “creative work product” or something along those lines because I don’t have the time to think through all of the angles.

Your initial question regarding facilities, funding, and resources makes me think of musicians not owning their work when they sign their rights away ti production companies. I don’t agree with that but mostly because of the bargaining power issues. Buts that’s creative, personal work.

So to answer your question: I’m not sure

 

[Briancuse]

Doug wouldn't have needed extra credit cards with someone else's name on them

Captiol One, whats in your Wallet?not my roomates Credit Cards

 

[SUFan44]

Let us know when you opt to forgo your salary and work for just benefits.

Let me know when you have a job that pays for your mortgage, your groceries, your gym membership, your tuition bills, your medical bills, gives you free clothes, and oh by the way, showcases and markets you for your next job.

 

[NKR1978]

I wish the athletes would blow up the system. Have massive events signing autographs and taking pictures for money. Wear masks and cover their names. Refuse to play the Final Four. Unfortunately it would require massive labor participation and agreement. For the tournament, they have all the power right now. If they refuse to play or openly break rules as a whole, then the sponsors and CBS will force the NCAA's hand.

 

[texascpa]

That’s an interesting question. I think it depends on the nature of the work/discoveries. I’m hesitant to use a phrase like “creative work product” or something along those lines because I don’t have the time to think through all of the angles.

Your initial question regarding facilities, funding, and resources makes me think of musicians not owning their work when they sign their rights away ti production companies. I don’t agree with that but mostly because of the bargaining power issues. Buts that’s creative, personal work.

So to answer your question: I’m not sure

To me, in the end, you have two parties of a contract, each full well knowing what's in that contract. They each made the choice to the stipulations of that contract and believed the outcome compensates them in kind.

It may well be that the doctorate candidate doesn't create anything fungible, so who benefits the most out of that situation - probably the student because they still get their degree. Or perhaps, he creates the cure to cancer. The school benefits probably benefits the most. But, I'll bet the student will see benefits as well (paid speaking engagements, endorsements, better offers, etc), even if he doesn't get to keep ownership of the work.

You do bring up an interesting point about bargaining power, though. One could argue that without competition of the limited spots, bargaining power is close to equal, but when you have lots of students wanting the few positions available to research, then I would agree the school has the bargaining power. That's a result of limited demand, lots of supply, though.

 

[SUFan44]

And there it is.

The ridiculous comparison.

Are you suggesting it’s a level playing field now?

That’s not how taxes work for businesses? Do you pay taxes on services offered by your employer? Any $ they make from their likeness would be taxed. That’s it. Anything they pay outside of school (extra trainers) could be a tax write off.

The problem isn’t that there is some compensation, the problem is that the existing compensation hasn’t kept pace with the income being brought in. Add an onerous “amateur” tag to it and keep them from making money that all other students can and you get this. There are concerns with recruiting floodgates and that kind of thing - but that is because the NCAA is toothless now and does a poor job already.

Pushback from booster types is that if name and likeness becomes how they get income all their bags are subject to more interest from the IRS, etc.

Do you get all of the profits from a company based on what you do?

Let's say I have a job as a PR rep for a company. I pitch a story that is seen by millions of people, or post a Twitter video that goes viral and gives my company a huge amount of exposure.

I get paid what I signed up to get paid for, but I'm not getting a cut of what I'm bringing in.

If you want kids to have the ability to profit off of themselves, yes -- I agree. But the model you are suggesting is not the way any business works.

I would also argue that the "existing compensation" has increased -- if you look back 30 years ago, do you think all of those guys on the teams in the 90's had access to the weight rooms, nutrition, facilities, and specialized coaching that these student-athletes get today? I don't.

 

[NKR1978]

The problem with blowing the NCAA up is that outside of Division I football and basketball the structure that the NCAA builds provides solid opportunities and experiences for tens of thousands of students. The NCAA does good things but it consistently messes up in the sports that are in the spotlight so it's easy to look past those good things.

The model seems outdated for the revenue sports because there's no way they could have seen it blow up to the levels that it has.

You could argue that revenue sports should break away from the NCAA and form their own entity but then that organization would end up with a list of similar problems because it would be controlled by the same people. I think we should give it some time after NLI is passed and if players aren't cool with owning that right it will be time to explore more extreme options.

It's up to the NCAA whether it's blown up. Either change or die.

It's a corrupt organization that deserves to be blown up. Sadly, the same corrupt individuals will just move to a new office building or use a new letterhead.

NCAA corruption is why people stopped caring about NCAA "violations." Who the freak is the NCAA to sit in judgment of anyone?

 

[jncuse]

Why should football and basketball players be expected to subsidize other non-revenue scholarship athletes / costs, when college football and college basketball coaches clearly do not subsidize the operating costs of other coaches or admin in non-revenue sports?

 

[jncuse]

This is an exceedingly complicated issue with a huge can of worms and that's probably when NCAA has not done anything. Once they do something there are slippery slopes 360 degrees all the way around.

Team sports makes it even messier. Football and basketball more so because it is difficult to separate individual "likeness" and team "likeness". Basketball is the hardest at least in football you have more players in a team and you are wearing helmets.

The first thing that comes to my mind would be a recruit will demand a minimum play time commitment from the coaches on games, more so on nationally televised games because he needs to maintain or enhance his NIL. Imagine a guy on a bench telling a coach that "my mother can't pay her mortgage next month because of your action of sitting me on the pine resulting in preventing me in getting proper exposure to make money off my NIL".

There are also some misconceptions here. Some suggested that an NCAA athlete cannot get paid period, this is false. They cannot get paid doing THAT sport. A NCAA tennis scholarship student can work as a pizza delivery person and get paid, a tennis player can even participate in a pro tournament event and get price money, as long as it's less than $10000 per year. In fact you can even be a pro in one sport and get paid while being an amateur in another. In 2010, Kyle Parker was Clemson's quarterback after he got a $1.4 million signing bonus from the Colorado Rockies. Russell Wilson had a $200,000 signing bonus with the Rockies, some of which he had to return to the club when he left to play quarterback at Wisconsin. Roscoe Crosby had a $1.75 million signing bonus from the Kansas City Royals while a Clemson wide receiver in the early 2000s.

These are exceptions of course, but the point is NCAA is not telling the students not to work period. In fact many tennis players on the pro circuits attend college part time, they just pay for college and not sign away their option to earn price money during college.

This means today, a basketball player can potentially be a walk on to a college BB team and play in the G League or oversea summer league or compete in tournaments with price money.

One example someone earlier gave was why can't a BB player make money off a tweet? Actually you can. Minnesota wrestler Joel Bauman tested the NCAA in 2013 by promoting that he was an NCAA wrestler on a music video he produced. Bauman declined to remove his name from any songs and eliminate any promotion of his status as an NCAA athlete. He got declared ineligible, a firestorm erupted, and he brilliantly turned the publicity into a marketing job. If he had made a music video without bringing in NCAA or Minnesota wrestling, and made money off the video it would have been OK.

The whole issue is with lumping NCAA and the college and the team into your tweet or video or media you are profiting off. I am guessing the NCAA has a hard time figuring out how to draw a line between to what extent the individual player begins and where the team, school and NCAA ends. Individual sports like tennis and running is less challenging, team sports get tricky.

I am not saying NCAA should not allow the students to get paid based on NIL, it's just it's a mess the size of a five gallon bucket of S***.

Now, didn't the NCAA hired Condolezza Rice and formed some committee a few years back to sort out complex issues including this one?

It's a complex issue. Absolutely. But the NCAA has used the "complex" issue since the beginning as a means to justify things in order to help out ONE side of the party, and not to help out all parties.

 

[kcsu]

That ship sailed years ago.

I do agree though, I don't want to see colleges paying players like it's NFL free agency. But there is zero reason why these athletes shouldn't be able to profit off of their likeness, endorsements, etc. Yes, there will be some abuses. There are massive abuses of the system we have in place now. But every step towards fairness is a good one.

I'll invoke the same, tired analogy I always use... the students who go to the College of Music aren't prevented from earning money by playing in bands in Armory Square. The students who go to the School of Drama aren't prevented from earning money by acting in a musical put on by a professional theater company. The students in the School of Engineering aren't prevented from launching a start-up and making money from their app being on Google Play. But a student in the School of Arts & Sciences, who also plays basketball, can't make money from his or her jersey being sold in the SU bookstore. It's immensely silly.

All of your examples are flawed. The reason is that when the kids plays in armory square he isnt also promoting SU. Simply put the school in the case of an athlete has as much if not more to do with the athletes likeness becoming marketable than not. If said athlete didnt have the platform provided them by the school and the exposure and everything else that comes with it their marketable value would be nothing. Lets say that Kadary was killing it on a pick up court back home. Would somebody be willing to pay him for his likeness? A musician or any individual who can be paid to do what they do on their own without a plateform is obviously entitled to be paid for it. My point is without the school, the ncaa, the exposure the athletes wouldnt have a marketable advertising value. Sure they might get hired by a summer camp to teach basketball but they would not be paid to endorse a product and i doubt anyone would buy a t shirt with their picture on it. Last point. The athlete has options. They can play in the G league or they can pursue another profession.

 

[NKR1978]

As an aside, I really wish we had a coach who embraced the new line of thinking. Whether he believes it or not, take the athlete side and go further than they're even asking for. People are sick of dinosaur thinking and I imagine it would help recruiting.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

All of your examples are flawed. The reason is that when the kids plays in armory square he isnt also promoting SU. Simply put the school in the case of an athlete has as much if not more to do with the athletes likeness becoming marketable than not. If said athlete didnt have the platform provided them by the school and the exposure and everything else that comes with it their marketable value would be nothing. Lets say that Kadary was killing it on a pick up court back home. Would somebody be willing to pay him for his likeness? A musician or any individual who can be paid to do what they do on their own without a plateform is obviously entitled to be paid for it. My point is without the school, the ncaa, the exposure the athletes wouldnt have a marketable advertising value. Sure they might get hired by a summer camp to teach basketball but they would not be paid to endorse a product and i doubt anyone would buy a t shirt with their picture on it. Last point. The athlete has options. They can play in the G league or they can pursue another profession.

Your comment suggests you don't understand how social media would work in all of this.

 

[Cusesky8214]

I find it interesting that there isn't anybody that responded to your post. Perhaps, it's simply convenient to ignore?

Free will...they all have it and none are forced into signing anything. As others have mentioned, go to the G league then or oversees, etc. Bet on yourself. Fact is, the enormous platform that the university provides them is unmatched/unparalleled, certainly at the time they sign the contract (LOI). Otherwise, they simply wouldn't sign it and they would choose (again voluntarily) to go a different route.

Remarkably, if not for the university providing them with the opportunity of a lifetime, showcasing their talents, providing a platform that they otherwise would never have, etc., and, additionally, where the university fronts 100% of the financial investment/risk, etc., they wouldn't have any name, likeness, etc. to begin with.

There's plenty of kids that already have huge followings and opportunities to make money of their social media platforms before ever even thinking of college so the, "they wouldn't have any name, likeness, etc. to begin with." Doesnt apply to all.

 

[Cusesky8214]

I actually don't have any problem with that example as long as he isn't in anyway identifying himself with Syracuse University in any capacity. In that case, many folks, especially the ones that don't pay any attention to SU sports, would likely have no clue who it is.

I am of the opinion, that NIL in regards to college sports has a lot more to do with the name on the front of jersey than the back.

Just one example and I'm sure there's plenty.

Jahvon Quinerly IG followers 446k
Alabama MBB official IG 95k

Its not just all about the name on the front of the jersey...and yes this isn't always the case but there's plenty of kids out there that should be making money.

 

[imdevo]

Let me know when you have a job that pays for your mortgage, your groceries, your gym membership, your tuition bills, your medical bills, gives you free clothes, and oh by the way, showcases and markets you for your next job.

Add all of that up and then compare it to the revenue being generated by these athletes. You think the school or the NCAA is losing money here? They are literally printing $ and your argument is because they pay:

- Tuition bills (Schools DESIGN programs so high level athletes can pass and still be eligible - you think they give a crap about their education? lol)
- Free clothes (Pretty sure most schools sell used jerseys for quite a bit of $ after it has been used by certain players)
- Medical bills (rest of student population's tuition covers this expense)
- "Markets you for your next job" - 3.8% for football. 1.2% for basketball. And that doesn't mean they'll have a lengthy and healthy career. NCAA execs though, raking in all the cash from TV contracts, advertisements, sponsorships, events...etc. etc.

If someone is going to make money off of you, you need to be compensated properly. They are not.

 

[miamicuse]

It's a complex issue. Absolutely. But the NCAA has used the "complex" issue since the beginning as a means to justify things in order to help out ONE side of the party, and not to help out all parties.

True.

The other justification that is often used is all this pay for play affects only a very small percentage of athletes. The Carmelo Anthonys and the Donovan McNabbs will make some bucks the other players and most of the other sports are perfectly happy where they are with the current model.

 

[orangecuse]

There's plenty of kids that already have huge followings and opportunities to make money of their social media platforms before ever even thinking of college so the, "they wouldn't have any name, likeness, etc. to begin with." Doesnt apply to all.

Just one example and I'm sure there's plenty.

Jahvon Quinerly IG followers 446k
Alabama MBB official IG 95k

Its not just all about the name on the front of the jersey...and yes this isn't always the case but there's plenty of kids out there that should be making money.

As a mid 50's something, I'm not and I've never been on any social media platform. Therefore, admittedly, I'm rather ignorant on that front. I do appreciate that you are though and that you follow it as intently as you do...I find myself liking many of your posts.

There's always exceptions or outliers. You list two to support your argument, however, that's a far cry from "plenty of kids." I'm not convinced that that is indeed the case relative to this compartmentalized discussion regarding D1 hoopsters, etc., especially those prior to ever landing foot on campus.

 

[rrlbees]

Add all of that up and then compare it to the revenue being generated by these athletes. You think the school or the NCAA is losing money here? They are literally printing $ and your argument is because they pay:

- Tuition bills (Schools DESIGN programs so high level athletes can pass and still be eligible - you think they give a crap about their education? lol)
- Free clothes (Pretty sure most schools sell used jerseys for quite a bit of $ after it has been used by certain players)
- Medical bills (rest of student population's tuition covers this expense)
- "Markets you for your next job" - 3.8% for football. 1.2% for basketball. And that doesn't mean they'll have a lengthy and healthy career. NCAA execs though, raking in all the cash from TV contracts, advertisements, sponsorships, events...etc. etc.

If someone is going to make money off of you, you need to be compensated properly. They are not.

I don’t know of schools that include medical bills as part of their tuition. SU certainly doesn’t and the school my daughter attended doesn’t either. It’s a separate line item for health insurance. Some do let you waive that cost with proof of your own insurance. But not all do that. And certainly not for 2 years after leaving.

Yes, schools do sell game worn jerseys, but that’s not the free stuff they get that people are talking about.

 

[CuseCPT]

These are college kids, Its hard for them to grasp the free market concept. If I'm Kadary and my teammate is getting a lot more money for commercials than I am, I'm going to be bothered by it.

E: NVM, thought you were talking about commercial and endorsement money.

 

[djcon57]

Add all of that up and then compare it to the revenue being generated by these athletes. You think the school or the NCAA is losing money here? They are literally printing $ and your argument is because they pay:

- Tuition bills (Schools DESIGN programs so high level athletes can pass and still be eligible - you think they give a crap about their education? lol)
- Free clothes (Pretty sure most schools sell used jerseys for quite a bit of $ after it has been used by certain players)
- Medical bills (rest of student population's tuition covers this expense)
- "Markets you for your next job" - 3.8% for football. 1.2% for basketball. And that doesn't mean they'll have a lengthy and healthy career. NCAA execs though, raking in all the cash from TV contracts, advertisements, sponsorships, events...etc. etc.

If someone is going to make money off of you, you need to be compensated properly. They are not.

if the schools were not making money off sports, they wouldn’t do it anymore. anyone selling the ”poor ad” shtick is completely ignoring the facts that when school have a good tourney run or good football season, enrollment goes up.

How March Madness Affects Admissions

Cinderella's carriage home is filled with college applications.

www.theatlantic.com