Our zone blows

[PhatOrange]

Other than like Igor, is there any single poster on this board who doesn't think Boeheim is one of the greatest coaches in NCAA history?

You must not read this board much especially when we lose.

 

[reedny]

And boy, having a 7'2 guy in the middle doesn't seem to make a difference either.

 

[Orangezoo]

The zone so far this tourney reminds me of 2013 and 2016 in how aggressive it is getting out on shooters. That coupled with how the tournament adds another layer of pressure once again is throwing teams for a loop offensively and hurting their shooting numbers. Ariz state actually did really well all things considered shooting wise but just had nothing inside the paint to balance it.

If you look at this year the biggest issue on defense has been over collapsing the guy at the FT Line , being late closing on shooters, leaving guys open from NBA range and then over reacting to quick ball reversals. All of those except maybe the NBA range piece have been much better through two games.

For MSU- Bridges and McQuaid worry me the most from outside but their ball movement isn't much better than ours as they aren't the passing team that the likes of Izzos recent teams have been. This despite their high assist numbers- watching them they don't move the ball all that well.

 

[Townie72]

M2M isn't always better against outside shooting (I'm aware of our strong defensive metrics most seasons), but sometimes under certain circumstances against certain opponents it is. Hence why maintaining the ability to be flexible (in basketball and in life in general) is always a positive thing.

Please no platitudes about the value of flexibility.

Running a M2M even occasionally means we would have to disrupt the current approach to practice and would drain time and emphasis from the rest of everything.

That's just one of the reasons JB won't do it as he has written and talked about many times.

It's just something frustrated or easily frustrated fans recommend after losses.

How about this concept. You said M2M isn't always better. That seems to suggest that M2M is sometimes better. How about M2M is never better than the SU zone if played properly?

 

[syr14]

Other than like Igor, is there any single poster on this board who doesn't think Boeheim is one of the greatest coaches in NCAA history?

There are certainly people on this board who think Boeheim should be forced to retire...

There are certainly people who would rather have Hopkins right now, despite JB proving he is still a special, HOF coach.

I even remember someone espousing that JB doesn't coach as well or make adjustments in 9 PM games because he's an old man and it's past his bedtime!!! Are you KIDDING ME?!?

 

[007]

The idea is straight forward alright

It's just that the thinking is muddled.

Switching into a defense that the opponent sees almost exclusively during the season and that they play themselves is a fundamentally bad idea. It's reminds me of Brer Rabbit and the Briar Patch. Opposing forces would love it.)

It's almost always suggested after SU losses by frustrated fans who mistakenly believe that M2M is always better against outside shooting. (An idea that has been disproven over and over again)

Although you are absolutely correct that M2M is not always better against perimeter shooting, your over generalization of the concept is what I take issue with. I can tell you from experience that the advantages of being able to play multiple defenses is not even remotely debatable in the coaching community, let alone a "fundamentally bad idea."

Whether or not JB would be better using multiple defenses is a different debate.

 

[HtownOrange]

You are right. Charles is wrong.

Those ads with Charles are right. He really is dumb . Entertaining, but dumb.

Are you saying there really is no turtle rat?

 

[OrangeDW]

There are certainly people on this board who think Boeheim should be forced to retire...

There are certainly people who would rather have Hopkins right now, despite JB proving he is still a special, HOF coach.

I even remember someone espousing that JB doesn't coach as well or make adjustments in 9 PM games because he's an old man and it's past his bedtime!!! Are you KIDDING ME?!?

This board has been ridiculous about Boeheim this season, which is weird because just getting to the NCAAs was a major victory this year, let alone making it to round 2.

 

[Eric15]

Please no platitudes about the value of flexibility.

Running a M2M even occasionally means we would have to disrupt the current approach to practice and would drain time and emphasis from the rest of everything.

That's just one of the reasons JB won't do it as he has written and talked about many times.

It's just something frustrated or easily frustrated fans recommend after losses.

How about this concept. You said M2M isn't always better. That seems to suggest that M2M is sometimes better. How about M2M is never better than the SU zone if played properly?

For example, in 2003 against Pitt in the Dome, we played man for 80% of the game, and it simply wasn't working. Pitt was getting open looks and converting a lot of easy buckets. We switched to man-to-man, and it resulted in a ferocious 14-point comeback and we won the game. I'm just saying that I would rather be a 90-95% zone team today with the occasional situational flexibility than a 100% zone team.

 

[HtownOrange]

To the OP. Love the sarcasm. To those that think the zone sucks, they may wish to take a close look at what other coaches are moving to. Many top coaches use the zone...because it sucks, of course.

 

[Eric15]

There are certainly people on this board who think Boeheim should be forced to retire...

There are certainly people who would rather have Hopkins right now, despite JB proving he is still a special, HOF coach.

I don't think that means those posters think Boeheim "blows" though. It simply means that while he is one of the greatest coaches ever, an infusion of new blood could be healthy for the program as it was with Bobby Bowden at FSU.

 

[HtownOrange]

Are you saying there really is no turtle rat?

 

[DBCooper]

I don't think that means those posters think Boeheim "blows" though. It simply means that while he is one of the greatest coaches ever, an infusion of new blood could be healthy for the program as it was with Bobby Bowden at FSU.

Those posters are ridiculous.

 

[Townie72]

Although you are absolutely correct that M2M is not always better against perimeter shooting, your over generalization of the concept is what I take issue with. I can tell you from experience that the advantages of being able to play multiple defenses is not even remotely debatable in the coaching community, let alone a "fundamentally bad idea."

Whether or not JB would be better using multiple defenses is a different debate.

We are talking about SU, I thought and not any random school.

 

[Townie72]

I don't think that means those posters think Boeheim "blows" though. It simply means that while he is one of the greatest coaches ever, an infusion of new blood could be healthy for the program as it was with Bobby Bowden at FSU.

Or Kevin Stallings at Pitt.

 

[Townie72]

Are you saying there really is no turtle rat?

I like the guy. But I don't think he'll be invited to join MENSA anytime soon.

 

[kirbivore]

Other than like Igor, is there any single poster on this board who doesn't think Boeheim is one of the greatest coaches in NCAA history?

TBonezone

 

[two3zone]

Please no platitudes about the value of flexibility.

Running a M2M even occasionally means we would have to disrupt the current approach to practice and would drain time and emphasis from the rest of everything.

That's just one of the reasons JB won't do it as he has written and talked about many times.

It's just something frustrated or easily frustrated fans recommend after losses.

How about this concept. You said M2M isn't always better. That seems to suggest that M2M is sometimes better. How about M2M is never better than the SU zone if played properly?

If playing m2m disrupts our approach imagine what it would do to a team playing against us not prepared and have to change their entire game plan.

 

[nzm136]

Or Kevin Stallings at Pitt.

To be fair, I think Kevin Stallings at Pitt worked out perfectly.

 

[dollarbill44]

Although you are absolutely correct that M2M is not always better against perimeter shooting, your over generalization of the concept is what I take issue with. I can tell you from experience that the advantages of being able to play multiple defenses is not even remotely debatable in the coaching community, let alone a "fundamentally bad idea."

Whether or not JB would be better using multiple defenses is a different debate.

Funny then, that we have a HOF coach who can debate on this topic.

 

[Townie72]

For example, in 2003 against Pitt in the Dome, we played man for 80% of the game, and it simply wasn't working. Pitt was getting open looks and converting a lot of easy buckets. We switched to man-to-man, and it resulted in a ferocious 14-point comeback and we won the game. I'm just saying that I would rather be a 90-95% zone team today with the occasional situational flexibility than a 100% zone team.

That's before Boeheim figured it out and decided to commit to 100% zone. And that entails practicing it and recruiting players who are specifically effective in it.

The flaw in your 5% argument is that you have to be as prepared and proficient at M2M as you are at Zone to play it even a small amount of time.

It's sort of like speaking French or German at work one hour a week. But with the rule being you have to be just as fluent as you are in English. There's a negative value of stumbling through the language you don't use 95% of the time.

 

[Townie72]

If playing m2m disrupts our approach imagine what it would do to a team playing against us not prepared and have to change their entire game plan.

You mean the other team would have to switch back to the offensive approach they use in every game but the SU one? And for which they have multiple approaches to select from and which they recruit to?

Yeah, that would confuse them (for about 5 seconds).

Staying in a defense they rarely see, especially the way SU plays it, is ALWAYS better than switching to a defense they see continually in games and in practice.

It's not going to confuse anyone. It just cedes SU's advantage.

 

[Townie72]

To be fair, I think Kevin Stallings at Pitt worked out perfectly.

Good point!

How these guys on here see JB as the problem, as the barrier to success is mind boggling to me.

To justify this they find rare instances where this kind of change has helped and overlook all the plane crashes.

Replacing JB, when he quits, will be a huge crap shoot.

 

[Arangeman]

 

[Townie72]

View attachment 124922

Good cherry picking of a quote from JB.

Now go get all the reasons he plays 100% zone. You can start with his book, Bleeding Orange".

How anyone can be critical of the defensive strategy after watching SU vs ASU and TCU is a mystery to me. Arizona State scored 95 points against Kansas who played M2M.