Class of 2018 PF Bryce Golden (MD) to Butler

[NineOneSeven]

IF we stay healthy, there's nothing wrong with the following non-center minutes.

Howard 35
Brissett 35
Dolezaj 30
Hughes 30
Carey 30

Then plug Buddy and HW in with whatever minutes you think they'll get which could be anywhere from 0-8 IMO for one, but not both, of them.

We need another forward. I think it's obvious and have no idea how others don't see it. Cannot rely on health. Stuff happens. This is a tough, physical game. Need depth. Losing Bazley was big not just because of his 5* status (which obviously makes it sting more), but the fact he was another player on the roster. Depth matters. I don't care really if the best players play 35+ minutes per game but there is a difference between having guys play 35+ minutes per game with a guy behind them and guys playing 35+ minutes per game with nobody behind them. If Sidibe can get healthy and move well enough to play the 4 like Rick, that's a game-changer.

Speaking of that- any update on his progress? Not to change subject.

 

[Cusefan0307]

People don't see it because they are so used to JB playing the Christmas's/Gbinije's/Cooney's/Lydon's/White's/Battle's/Brissett's/Howard's 40 minutes a game.

Well playing to much is bad. There's a thing called the law of diminishing returns. After a while those minutes add up and you aren't as productive.

 

[rrlbees]

We need another forward. I think it's obvious and have no idea how others don't see it. Cannot rely on health. Stuff happens. This is a tough, physical game. Need depth. Losing Bazley was big not just because of his 5* status (which obviously makes it sting more), but the fact he was another player on the roster. Depth matters. I don't care really if the best players play 35+ minutes per game but there is a difference between having guys play 35+ minutes per game with a guy behind them and guys playing 35+ minutes per game with nobody behind them. If Sidibe can get healthy and move well enough to play the 4 like Rick, that's a game-changer.

Speaking of that- any update on his progress? Not to change subject.

I’m not sure anyone has said we don’t need another forward. But we can get by without one as long. See the first word in my post you replied to.

Haven’t heard anything on Sid.

 

[rrlbees]

People don't see it because they are so used to JB playing the Christmas's/Gbinije's/Cooney's/Lydon's/White's/Battle's/Brissett's/Howard's 40 minutes a game.

Well playing to much is bad. There's a thing called the law of diminishing returns. After a while those minutes add up and you aren't as productive.

My mpg list doesn’t have guys playing 40.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Can't blame the kid. Butler is a good opportunity with more immediate playing time, and will likely play an offense that suits him better. Kids see what we run and I can't imagine it's super appealing to many of them, especially a guy who's probably not creating much on his own.

And for those poo-pooing losing a recruit to Butler...are we really that much more desirable, at least basketball-wise? Kids don't care about Carmelo or Syracuse/Big East history; they see the bubble team every year finishing middle of the pack in the ACC. Butler's had better regular seasons and similar/better tourney success recently (outside of our 2016 run). They're on national TV a lot with the BE FS1 platform, maybe more than we have been?

Until we start winning more and put a more appealing offensive product on the court, it can't come as a surprise that a kid would choose a Butler over SU. A kid knowing he won't play much here for a year or two, or ever, that can go play at Butler or Vandy or Seton Hall and be just as successful, if not more, is probably becoming the norm now. We're stuck in a weird middle area and something has to change or else we're going to continue being an ACC mid-tier program.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Can't blame the kid. Butler is a good opportunity with more immediate playing time, and will likely play an offense that suits him better. Kids see what we run and I can't imagine it's super appealing to many of them, especially a guy who's probably not creating much on his own.

And for those poo-pooing losing a recruit to Butler...are we really that much more desirable, at least basketball-wise? Kids don't care about Carmelo or Syracuse/Big East history; they see the bubble team every year finishing middle of the pack in the ACC. Butler's had better regular seasons and similar/better tourney success recently (outside of our 2016 run). They're on national TV a lot with the BE FS1 platform, maybe more than we have been?

Until we start winning more and put a more appealing offensive product on the court, it can't come as a surprise that a kid would choose a Butler over SU. A kid knowing he won't play much here for a year or two, or ever, that can go play at Butler or Vandy or Seton Hall and be just as successful, if not more, is probably becoming the norm now. We're stuck in a weird middle area and something has to change or else we're going to continue being an ACC mid-tier program.

I'm not sure where you are getting numbers that Butler has been more successful. We have won 15 tournament games since their last FF run. They have won 4.

 

[Newhouser]

IF we stay healthy, there's nothing wrong with the following non-center minutes.

Howard 35
Brissett 35
Dolezaj 30
Hughes 30
Carey 30

Then plug Buddy and HW in with whatever minutes you think they'll get which could be anywhere from 0-8 IMO for one, but not both, of them.

Healthy at the forwards and no foul trouble at the forward spot.

 

[Jasoncuse]

I'm not sure where you are getting numbers that Butler has been more successful. We have won 15 tournament games since their last FF run. They have won 4.

Butler's had better regular seasons and similar/better tourney success recently (outside of our 2016 run).

Recently, as in the past 5 or so years since we've entered the ACC, not 10 years ago...
Butler Tourney berths: 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018
Seeds: 6, 9, 4, 10
5-4 record, 1 sweet 16
Regular season record (not including NCAA's): 100-58 (46-48 in BE, three top 4 finishes) -- This includes the 2013-2014 transition year to the BE after Stevens left and before Holtmann. They went 14-17 under Brandon Miller, including 4-15 in BE play. Under Holtmann/Jordan the past 4 years, they've gone 86-41 (42-33)

Syracuse Tourney berths: 2014, 2016, 2018
Seeds: 3, 10, 11
8-3 record, FF, 1 sweet 16
Regular season: 102-58 (51-44 in ACC, but only 1 finish higher than 7th---2014 2nd place) -- Removing our one outlier season in 2014, as well, the record the past 4 years was 75-53 and 37-39 in ACC play)

So yes, recently Butler has been better in regular season play and had similar (ok, not better) tourney success outside of our FF run. That's all I'm pointing out when comparing SU to Butler and why it shouldn't be a surprise a kid chooses a school like that...

I'm not saying Butler is a better program, far from it. I'm just suggesting that recent performance doesn't exactly favor us over programs like Butler.

 

[Trueblue25]

I dont see why this was surprising.

Here he’d compete with Dolezaj, possibly Brisset and Sidibe for time at the 4 depending on the situation.


Butler he goes in and likely starts.


Its like we whine about Tucker choosing Duke even though there’s more playing time available at Cuse. Then we whine about Golden going to Butler where there’s more immediate playing time.

 

[phil77]

I think it all comes down to our style of play and I am not talking about defense and our zone.

 

[RF2044]

We need another forward. I think it's obvious and have no idea how others don't see it. Cannot rely on health. Stuff happens. This is a tough, physical game. Need depth. Losing Bazley was big not just because of his 5* status (which obviously makes it sting more), but the fact he was another player on the roster. Depth matters. I don't care really if the best players play 35+ minutes per game but there is a difference between having guys play 35+ minutes per game with a guy behind them and guys playing 35+ minutes per game with nobody behind them. If Sidibe can get healthy and move well enough to play the 4 like Rick, that's a game-changer.

Speaking of that- any update on his progress? Not to change subject.

Spot on -- agree 100%. Landing Golden would have killed FIVE different birds with one stone -- all of which would have impacted issues with the way the roster is currently constructed:

• He would have enhanced the depth of our forward rotation, which is currently non-existent

• He would have provided a "bigger" option to play on the back line than a kid like Hughes, who is unproven

• He would have provided a fall back option to play the 5, in the event that Sidibe doesn't bounce back physically -- at least giving the staff some different options to work with

• He would have protected us / provided insurance against a situation where [heaven forbid] we sustain an injury to one of our starting forwards, which would entirely wipe out forward depth

• He would have added to what we have coming back in 2019, when we will almost assuredly lose Brissett [and possibly Dolezaj]

To say nothing of the impact he might have made off the court, in practice, enabling the team to have more competitive scrimmages on a daily basis. As you adroitly point out, depth matters.

That's what I find personally disappointing about missing out on this recruit. Some of the posts I've read in this thread seem to be rationalizing this off as no big deal because he wasn't rated highly and isn't a transcendent level recruit. The reality is that we've had lots of players in the last 10 years who have been four-year program types who've been important cogs on some very good teams -- players like Kris Joseph, CJ Fair, Brandon Triche, Andy Rautins, etc. Nobody viewed those guys as program changing recruits, either. This kid would have fit in just fine here.

Missed opportunity.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Butler's had better regular seasons and similar/better tourney success recently (outside of our 2016 run).

Recently, as in the past 5 or so years since we've entered the ACC, not 10 years ago...
Butler Tourney berths: 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018
Seeds: 6, 9, 4, 10
5-4 record, 1 sweet 16
Regular season record (not including NCAA's): 100-58 (46-48 in BE, three top 4 finishes) -- This includes the 2013-2014 transition year to the BE after Stevens left and before Holtmann. They went 14-17 under Brandon Miller, including 4-15 in BE play. Under Holtmann/Jordan the past 4 years, they've gone 86-41 (42-33)

Syracuse Tourney berths: 2014, 2016, 2018
Seeds: 3, 10, 11
8-3 record, FF, 1 sweet 16
Regular season: 102-58 (51-44 in ACC, but only 1 finish higher than 7th---2014 2nd place) -- Removing our one outlier season in 2014, as well, the record the past 4 years was 75-53 and 37-39 in ACC play)

So yes, recently Butler has been better in regular season play and had similar (ok, not better) tourney success outside of our FF run. That's all I'm pointing out when comparing SU to Butler and why it shouldn't be a surprise a kid chooses a school like that...

I'm not saying Butler is a better program, far from it. I'm just suggesting that recent performance doesn't exactly favor us over programs like Butler.

Meh. I’m not disagreeing we have issues, but you’re moving the goalposts a bit. They did nothing in 2012 and 2013.

 

[dasher]

Butler's had better regular seasons and similar/better tourney success recently (outside of our 2016 run).

Recently, as in the past 5 or so years since we've entered the ACC, not 10 years ago...
Butler Tourney berths: 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018
Seeds: 6, 9, 4, 10
5-4 record, 1 sweet 16
Regular season record (not including NCAA's): 100-58 (46-48 in BE, three top 4 finishes) -- This includes the 2013-2014 transition year to the BE after Stevens left and before Holtmann. They went 14-17 under Brandon Miller, including 4-15 in BE play. Under Holtmann/Jordan the past 4 years, they've gone 86-41 (42-33)

Syracuse Tourney berths: 2014, 2016, 2018
Seeds: 3, 10, 11
8-3 record, FF, 1 sweet 16
Regular season: 102-58 (51-44 in ACC, but only 1 finish higher than 7th---2014 2nd place) -- Removing our one outlier season in 2014, as well, the record the past 4 years was 75-53 and 37-39 in ACC play)

So yes, recently Butler has been better in regular season play and had similar (ok, not better) tourney success outside of our FF run. That's all I'm pointing out when comparing SU to Butler and why it shouldn't be a surprise a kid chooses a school like that...

I'm not saying Butler is a better program, far from it. I'm just suggesting that recent performance doesn't exactly favor us over programs like Butler.

If you take out our final four run and their disaster of 2014...my head is going to explode. No one, no 18 year old kid, no one, puts Butler in the same class as Syracuse. We are viewed as big time. The place we play. The coach we have. The league we play in. Butler is a very good program. And if I was a kid ranked out of the top 100 and wanted to play right away and not worry that I would be recruited over, I would really consider picking Butler over Syracuse. If I was a top tier kid, I wouldn't give it a second thought as I was eliminating Butler from my list of schools.

 

[gilardino]

Its a big blow and quite frankly once again we did not close the deal. Very frustrating. No forward depth at all. Also, please don't throw the stupid grad transfer thing at me. Our recruiting as of late has quite frankly been awful.

 

[cuse10]

Spot on -- agree 100%. Landing Golden would have killed FIVE different birds with one stone -- all of which would have impacted issues with the way the roster is currently constructed:

• He would have enhanced the depth of our forward rotation, which is currently non-existent

• He would have provided a "bigger" option to play on the back line than a kid like Hughes, who is unproven

• He would have provided a fall back option to play the 5, in the event that Sidibe doesn't bounce back physically -- at least giving the staff some different options to work with

• He would have protected us / provided insurance against a situation where [heaven forbid] we sustain an injury to one of our starting forwards, which would entirely wipe out forward depth

• He would have added to what we have coming back in 2019, when we will almost assuredly lose Brissett [and possibly Dolezaj]

To say nothing of the impact he might have made off the court, in practice, enabling the team to have more competitive scrimmages on a daily basis. As you adroitly point out, depth matters.

That's what I find personally disappointing about missing out on this recruit. Some of the posts I've read in this thread seem to be rationalizing this off as no big deal because he wasn't rated highly and isn't a transcendent level recruit. The reality is that we've had lots of players in the last 10 years who have been four-year program types who've been important cogs on some very good teams -- players like Kris Joseph, CJ Fair, Brandon Triche, Andy Rautins, etc. Nobody viewed those guys as program changing recruits, either. This kid would have fit in just fine here.

Missed opportunity.

The staff had to scramble because of a last minute defection. It sucks, but move on. He wants to go where he will start from Day 1. He will not do that here. Some kids don't mind having to work to earn their stripes; he's not one of them. Losing sleep and letting a 3* guy throw your day off is something I do not get about this board.

 

[dasher]

Its a big blow and quite frankly once again we did not close the deal. Very frustrating. No forward depth at all. Also, please don't throw the stupid grad transfer thing at me. Our recruiting as of late has quite frankly been awful.

I just wish people had some sort of clue. Here are the facts regarding this situation. This kid was ready to close the deal with Butler before we got involved. He had been talking with them for a while. He plays with a kid in AAU that is going to Butler. We weren't involved until we lost Bazley. We took a run and came closer than we probably should have. We made the kid think about it. If it was a race, Butler had a 50 yard head start in a 100 yard race.

 

[Deano]

Its a big blow and quite frankly once again we did not close the deal. Very frustrating. No forward depth at all. Also, please don't throw the stupid grad transfer thing at me. Our recruiting as of late has quite frankly been awful.

Yep Brissett, Marek and Sidibe were horrible recruits this past year. The coach and staff need to be replaced.

 

[Day2]

People don't see it because they are so used to JB playing the Christmas's/Gbinije's/Cooney's/Lydon's/White's/Battle's/Brissett's/Howard's 40 minutes a game.

Well playing to much is bad. There's a thing called the law of diminishing returns. After a while those minutes add up and you aren't as productive.

Was certainly a factor when we beat Michigan St. while playing our third game in five days.

 

[RF2044]

The staff had to scramble because of a last minute defection. It sucks, but move on. He wants to go where he will start from Day 1. He will not do that here. Some kids don't mind having to work to earn their stripes; he's not one of them. Losing sleep and letting a 3* guy throw your day off is something I do not get about this board.

Do you dispute anything that I wrote? I actually agree with the vast majority of your post, but the last sentence is bizarre.

 

[dasher]

Its a big blow and quite frankly once again we did not close the deal. Very frustrating. No forward depth at all. Also, please don't throw the stupid grad transfer thing at me. Our recruiting as of late has quite frankly been awful.

Our jr class was Tyler Lydon, first round pick, Mali Richardson, first round pick, Frank Howard, solid starter. Our soph class had Tyus Battle. Not so bad. And our last frosh class had OB, Marek, Sidibe and Washington. That is awful? You just said our recruiting has been awful. That was awful?

 

[Alsacs]

Was certainly a factor when we beat Michigan St. while playing our third game in five days.

This type of argument is so shortsighted.

We had a good run in the tournament. I still don’t think it means our rotation isn’t a problem.
We literally get nothing from our bench. We have no margin for error and no depth but because we won 3 tournament games it means nothing needs to be changed.
Virginia goes 31-2 but because they lost to UMBC they have to change everything.

We had a great tournament but our short rotation should change unless we have elite talent. Players like Trevor Cooney, Frank Howard shouldn’t have to be high 30 MPG players.

It’s a problem.

 

[Ryand877]

Was certainly a factor when we beat Michigan St. while playing our third game in five days.

It was not a factor those three games, correct. Let me ask you this though, we were the last team in the tournament, most "experts" think we didn't deserve the bid. Part of the reason we were in that situation to begin with was lack of depth. If we didn't make the tournament, we wouldn't even be having this specific comparison. My point is how one or two things happening at the same time can affect our long term perceptions and outlook on things. Obviously, we all do, its human nature. Just trying to show another perspective.

 

[rrlbees]

Its a big blow and quite frankly once again we did not close the deal. Very frustrating. No forward depth at all. Also, please don't throw the stupid grad transfer thing at me. Our recruiting as of late has quite frankly been awful.

baz, carey, buddy and hughes from the prior year is a damn good haul. baz bailing was unheard of. last year, brissett, sidibe, marek and hw wasnt too shabby either.

 

[OrangeMaNPD]

Thanks for the insight, Dash!

 

[Fly Rodder]

I just wish people had some sort of clue. Here are the facts regarding this situation. This kid was ready to close the deal with Butler before we got involved.

Is that somewhere in the previous 35 pages? Hard to chastise people for not knowing something that wasn't public anywhere.