Red Season 1 Now a Bust

[OrlandoCuse]

Very flawed roster. It’s disappointing because I hate the idea of 3 straight years without a tourney but you can’t put that on Red. We lost 3 kids who were expected to be major contributors coming into the year.

Take a deep breath and have some patience. Earlier this week the common theme was we had a program changing win and we can’t lose this core. Now it’s half this team isn’t P6 worthy ? Give Red some time, there have been flashes despite a poorly constructed roster.

This was never going to be an overnight fix.

The UNC win didn’t change the fact that half of this roster can’t play at a P6 level.

 

[dasher]

Doherty was in over his head, tried to fight another coach. He also to his credit recruited a title team.

I was going to throw some of the other stuff in about why Matt was fired but decided the 80 wins by Guthridge was enough.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

Some of you guys disagreeing with this season being a bust show the bar for Syracuse basketball has been lowered significantly over the past decade.

FWIW, any year Syracuse doesn’t make the NCAAT should be considered a bust.

 

[Eric15]

After Dean Smith retired Guthridge coached for 3 years before retiring. He was actually successful, but probably not completely up to UNC standards.

They replaced him with Matt Doherty who was fired after only 3 seasons because he compiled a 55% winning percentage.

I don’t see how we keep give Red more than 3 years if he puts up results similar to Doherty.

Sucks for Doherty because he recruited that incredible class with McCants, May and Felton that Roy cashed in.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Yet you posted..

FWIW, there’s nothing wrong with my post. Season 1 (making the NCAAT) officially ended tonight. It’s okay to question the future. Red will be here next year. How long should he have to turn the program around? Right now it’s just looking like a continuation of JAB’a last few seasons of mediocrity.

They have to be better next year. Let's start with that.
He has to build a better roster, and rely less on guys with injury histories. You only get so many scholarships.
They have to up their NIL game, on par with football, which shouldn't be that hard.

He needs to recruit a starting-caliber center, and an actual, starting quality PG, who can also make a 3.

With those pieces, a back up center, and clearing out a couple guys, this could be a pretty good team next year. I like that he installed man, and they got better at it as the season went on.

Broken players have to show themselves to be fit by the end of the semester, or we have to move on. We can't have 30% or more of our roster taken up by guys who can't play for physical reasons.

So far, I think Autry has done about a B- job as a first year coach. Pretty good, but the injuries caught up with us. Going from good cop to bad cop has been challenging, and I'm hopeful that he gets control of his players, but there are signs that it's been a struggle.

We have to be better next year. We have to be in the top 4 to 6 of the ACC, with a winning record in conference, a few games over .500, not just scraping by.

They could still win a couple more games this year, which would get them to 18, maybe even a game or two more. I would expect that next year, if we are trending the right way, we should win around 22.

The elephant in the room is Judah Mintz. He's talented, but he's also the reason that our ceiling is limited. He is who he is. I don't think he really has a winner's mentality. I think he thinks he's better than he is.

I didn't think Girard would have worked on this team, playing man, but he went and lost 15 pounds over the summer, and has had a very good year for Clemson, who are looking like an NCAA team.

I'm not sure that Judah can really change who he is. I think our chemistry would be better, and our defense would be better, and our ball movement would be better, if he wasn't here next year. But I don't see where he's going. He's kind of been "found out" this last month or so. This has been "his team", but he hasn't really embraced what that means as a player, to be a real leader, and not just play to the cameras.

I would be happy with JJ, Copeland, Choppa and a true PG from the portal as our backcourt.

I would like to see a forward rotation of Maliq, Freeman and a portal guy who is a traditional athletic 3 like we used to get, and then use Bell as your 4th forward. He doesn't play enough defense, and he only rebounds in spurts. He seems to be working harder, but he takes too many plays off.

If Naheem can be healthy by camp, then he could be the backup center. Hima might as well retire. Keep one of Carey or the freshman who redshirted, but get somebody who can help you now, for chrissakes.

You can't use up FOUR roster spots for one position, and still have no one who can play. That's a big hit to this year's roster make up.

That's their task in the off season. They have a lot of work to do, but their task is clearer now.

 

[pwong]

3 years isn't enough unless he is a disaster. That would be really 2 recruiting classes.

I think 3 years is enough to see if things will trend in the right direction or not. Roster construction shouldn’t be as big of an issue with the portal, more concerned about in game adjustments and consistent results.

 

[OptimusOtto]

Some of you guys disagreeing with this season being a bust show the bar for Syracuse basketball has been lowered significantly over the past decade.

FWIW, any year Syracuse doesn’t make the NCAAT should be considered a bust.

My tourney expectations disappeared when Jesse left. On the whole I agree with you but I think this year is a unique situation and I don’t know how many coaches there are out there that would have this roster in a better position.

 

[SwagSocks]

Some of you guys disagreeing with this season being a bust show the bar for Syracuse basketball has been lowered significantly over the past decade.

FWIW, any year Syracuse doesn’t make the NCAAT should be considered a bust.

Shows how far the program had fallen. The highest seed Cuse has been in a decade is a 8. Only 4 tournament appearances (assuming we dont make it this year). Its sad.

 

[dasher]

My tourney expectations disappeared when Jesse left. On the whole I agree with you but I think this year is a unique situation and I don’t know how many coaches there are out there that would have this roster in a better position.

That is what happens when you have a old coach over stay his tenure.

 

[Cuse181]

How can you put the blame on Red when a lot of these players were due to JB's fault of not getting his butt out on the recruiting trail and instead sitting at home watching Golden Girls.

Red's got to clean house with a bunch of these guys next year and hit the portal hard. Quality Center and a true PG are what we need. So sick of this, let's get a 2G and turn him into the next Pearl Washington. It hasn't worked for years outside of Mike Gbinije. Judah ain't no PG. Last good PG was Tyler Ennis and that's YEARS ago.

Thank goodness we finally have a decent recruiter in Branden S. too. He was a nice hire by Red.

​

This argument goes in the same circle:

“it’s JBs fault the players are here”

“But he kept them”

“But no one wanted to play here”

Blah blah blah

 

[pokercuse08]

There’s no way in hell the entire fanbase expected an NCAA tourney run this year.

In my personal opinion, that would have been an overly optimistic expectation. Certainly was not mine.

Yeah, I was hoping for 19 to 21 wins and having a shot to get into the tourney. We're going to be right around that win total, but no tourney barring a miracle. I was hoping to see them playing harder, a better brand of offense, and improving over the course of the season. I haven't seen any of that consistently, but there have been flashes.

Next year we need to be a tournament team, and we need the next recruiting class to be at least as good as the one we've got coming in.

Year 3 I want to be a top-25 team and see continued recruiting success.

I don't think those are crazy expectations, and they don't have to be iron-clad. Obviously injuries happen. But the trendline needs to be moving in that direction. By years 4 and 5 I want to see us in the top 10, regaining powerhouse status.

 

[dasher]

Yeah, I was hoping for 19 to 21 wins and having a shot to get into the tourney. We're going to be right around that win total, but no tourney barring a miracle. I was hoping to see them playing harder, a better brand of offense, and improving over the course of the season. I haven't seen any of that consistently, but there have been flashes.

Next year we need to be a tournament team, and we need the next recruiting class to be at least as good as the one we've got coming in.

Year 3 I want to be a top-25 team and see continued recruiting success.

I don't think those are crazy expectations, and they don't have to be iron-clad. Obviously injuries happen. But the trendline needs to be moving in that direction. By years 4 and 5 I want to see us in the top 10, regaining powerhouse status.

I think that is reasonable.

 

[two3zone]

We need better players he needs to turn over half this roster and prepare to go all in for year 3, he can’t let Jim Boeheim’s best recruiting class get him fired.

 

[syrBossHogg]

Yeah, I was hoping for 19 to 21 wins and having a shot to get into the tourney. We're going to be right around that win total, but no tourney barring a miracle. I was hoping to see them playing harder, a better brand of offense, and improving over the course of the season. I haven't seen any of that consistently, but there have been flashes.

Next year we need to be a tournament team, and we need the next recruiting class to be at least as good as the one we've got coming in.

Year 3 I want to be a top-25 team and see continued recruiting success.

I don't think those are crazy expectations, and they don't have to be iron-clad. Obviously injuries happen. But the trendline needs to be moving in that direction. By years 4 and 5 I want to see us in the top 10, regaining powerhouse status.

Yeah, we need to keep seeing obvious progress year over year. No tourney bid this year but we're clearly better than last year. If we're clearly better next year than this year, then that should be enough to get into the tourney. Then the following year you aim to finish a top 25 team.

 

[newmexicuse]

The bottom line is TALENT - we dont have enough.

Can Red get it ???

You have to give him at least two full recruiting cycles.

 

[Bulldog04]

Busts are teams like USC. 3rd ranked recruiting class with two five stars and two four stars and they have 10 wins in a miserable conference. Let’s actually give Red some coaching praise. It’s been far from perfect but those of us who actually follow the sport as a whole know how much better Red has done than a lot of coaches this year with far less…

And everyone’s savior Pitino is 14-11. Amazing what people choose to ignore

 

[FireballPhil]

They have to be better next year. Let's start with that.
He has to build a better roster, and rely less on guys with injury histories. You only get so many scholarships.
They have to up their NIL game, on par with football, which shouldn't be that hard.

He needs to recruit a starting-caliber center, and an actual, starting quality PG, who can also make a 3.

With those pieces, a back up center, and clearing out a couple guys, this could be a pretty good team next year. I like that he installed man, and they got better at it as the season went on.

Broken players have to show themselves to be fit by the end of the semester, or we have to move on. We can't have 30% or more of our roster taken up by guys who can't play for physical reasons.

So far, I think Autry has done about a B- job as a first year coach. Pretty good, but the injuries caught up with us. Going from good cop to bad cop has been challenging, and I'm hopeful that he gets control of his players, but there are signs that it's been a struggle.

We have to be better next year. We have to be in the top 4 to 6 of the ACC, with a winning record in conference, a few games over .500, not just scraping by.

They could still win a couple more games this year, which would get them to 18, maybe even a game or two more. I would expect that next year, if we are trending the right way, we should win around 22.

The elephant in the room is Judah Mintz. He's talented, but he's also the reason that our ceiling is limited. He is who he is. I don't think he really has a winner's mentality. I think he thinks he's better than he is.

I didn't think Girard would have worked on this team, playing man, but he went and lost 15 pounds over the summer, and has had a very good year for Clemson, who are looking like an NCAA team.

I'm not sure that Judah can really change who he is. I think our chemistry would be better, and our defense would be better, and our ball movement would be better, if he wasn't here next year. But I don't see where he's going. He's kind of been "found out" this last month or so. This has been "his team", but he hasn't really embraced what that means as a player, to be a real leader, and not just play to the cameras.

I would be happy with JJ, Copeland, Choppa and a true PG from the portal as our backcourt.

I would like to see a forward rotation of Maliq, Freeman and a portal guy who is a traditional athletic 3 like we used to get, and then use Bell as your 4th forward. He doesn't play enough defense, and he only rebounds in spurts. He seems to be working harder, but he takes too many plays off.

If Naheem can be healthy by camp, then he could be the backup center. Hima might as well retire. Keep one of Carey or the freshman who redshirted, but get somebody who can help you now, for chrissakes.

You can't use up FOUR roster spots for one position, and still have no one who can play. That's a big hit to this year's roster make up.

That's their task in the off season. They have a lot of work to do, but their task is clearer now.

Pretty much spot on, the only caveat I would have is I am not sure now if Bell will be here next year. I was leaning toward he will be, but seeing his attitude in today's game and his attitude toward Red, I am wondering if he will even finish the season. That being said, Red didn't sit him so maybe it wasn't as bad as it looked.

 

[Bayside44]

Busts are teams like USC. 3rd ranked recruiting class with two five stars and two four stars and they have 10 wins in a miserable conference. Let’s actually give Red some coaching praise. It’s been far from perfect but those of us who actually follow the sport as a whole know how much better Red has done than a lot of coaches this year with far less…

And everyone’s savior Pitino is 14-11. Amazing what people choose to ignore

Kenny Payne, stuff like that.

Red didn't walk into a great spot. And it's not like he can freely sign whoever he wants like it's baseball free agency in one offseason.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

Busts are teams like USC. 3rd ranked recruiting class with two five stars and two four stars and they have 10 wins in a miserable conference. Let’s actually give Red some coaching praise. It’s been far from perfect but those of us who actually follow the sport as a whole know how much better Red has done than a lot of coaches this year with far less…

And everyone’s savior Pitino is 14-11. Amazing what people choose to ignore

I’m still supportive of Red. Just setting the right expectations for performance.

I was very vocal about forcing JAB into retirement several years ago because I worried the program would slip too far.

I was right about JAB. I’m right about setting the performance standard of Red making the NCAAT by year 3, ideally sooner.

 

[kcsu]

So much of this is based on the kids not being to hit the broad side of the barn.
Can anyone remember a worse shooting team? I can't.

 

[SWC75]

Barring a miracle in the next 3 weeks, Red’s season 1 is looking like a bust, or at least underperformed against fans’ expectations.

Looking ahead to next year I believe he must make the NCAA Tournament. The program can’t continue to produce mediocre results year after year. We’re slipping as a national program. Falling with the likes of Indiana and Georgetown into the oblivion of has-beens.

Question is, do you give Red a third year if he fails to make the NCAAT next year?

Even if he gets a third year, if he doesn’t make the tournament by his third year there’s no chance he gets a 4th.

What were your expectations for this team?

This is what I posted in my preview last October:

"I think we have more talent on the team than we’ve had in years but I’m concerned that we lack proven players, (which can change by the end of the season), have too many similar players, (four centers, five guards who can get to the basket but don’t shoot very well), lack the perimeter game to stretch the defense so our penetrators will have someplace to go and face the toughest and most unforgiving schedule we’ve ever played. With a new coach and playing style and the influx of interesting talent, optimism is understandably high, (and now is the time to have it), but that can turn into disappointment and bitterness. The optimistic view is that all the tough games will give this team an opportunity to make a reputation for itself and the new talent and style will enable them to do so. I’ll be delighted if that’s true. If it isn’t, I’ll focus on the development of the players, most of whom figure to be on next year’s team and will be joined by one of our best recruiting classes in years. Sports is about undying hope. "

 

[OmahaCuse]

Mcleod is an underrated loss, yeah I know he wasn't great but he's got size and he allows us to play Brown at the 4 more

Agree loss but remember was never on the court with Brown As MB came off the bench to play the 5 only

 

[djcon57]

Watching Clemson play tonight. Joe made a great decision. They get him wide open threes with the sets they run. This team is perfect for him. He’s scored over twenty points by only taking seven shots. He’s making the game look easy. Unbelievable poise and heady play. What a novel idea for a guard.

Hope you watched ‘til the end

 

[OrlandoCuse]

What were your expectations for this team?

This is what I posted in my preview last October:

"I think we have more talent on the team than we’ve had in years but I’m concerned that we lack proven players, (which can change by the end of the season), have too many similar players, (four centers, five guards who can get to the basket but don’t shoot very well), lack the perimeter game to stretch the defense so our penetrators will have someplace to go and face the toughest and most unforgiving schedule we’ve ever played. With a new coach and playing style and the influx of interesting talent, optimism is understandably high, (and now is the time to have it), but that can turn into disappointment and bitterness. The optimistic view is that all the tough games will give this team an opportunity to make a reputation for itself and the new talent and style will enable them to do so. I’ll be delighted if that’s true. If it isn’t, I’ll focus on the development of the players, most of whom figure to be on next year’s team and will be joined by one of our best recruiting classes in years. Sports is about undying hope. "

My expectations are for the players to improve as the year goes on and the team to make the NCAAT. Hasn’t come to fruition this year.

 

[CU44SE]

1- Some people acting like this is the 1980’s and every team has 4 and 5 year players. You shouldn’t need 5 years nowadays with the transfer portal to assemble your team and style. So let’s not pretend like Red should be given 5 years to lay a foundation here. We are behind the 8 ball because Jim was alllowed to coast the last several years. Red has 3 years max. Next year has to be tournament. Give him a mulligan on this year. But make no mistake. He could have run off some players or been more aggressive in the portal to assemble the team he wanted. Instead, he choose this team. For better or worse, this is his squad for this year that he put together.

2- The Half court offense is just miserable. No plan other than roll the ball out. To me, that is most worrisome. If we are not getting turnovers and run outs. We cannot consistently run a half court set. Not to mention I have not seen a play coming out of a dead ball or timeout that has worked yet. He’s still learning. And part of this I think is on Jim because he ran this same type of offense and he never let or allowed the assistant coaches to coach.

Question- I haven’t looked it up, but who is the best head coach that Jim developed on his staff. Pitino was here for 1 year. Hopkins has been a bust, granted he moved out west where he lost most of his contacts. Murphy made the tournament once. Is it Tim Welsh? Honest question. Usually great coaches have a coaching tree they leave behind. Maybe that’s more of a football thing. But I’m not sure Jim really set up his assistants to be successful coaches down the line. I very well could be wrong here. Just nothing is coming to mind off the top of my head.