The Coyle decision

[IthacaBarrel]

Cmon. We are playing seniors and juniors where they are better than their counterparts. The problem is there are not a lot of them - especially at key positions like QB, WR, S.

It's really not that debatable. Marrone's recruiting + leaving when he did = impacted the last two seasons.

Excuses in my book. We lost a few guys when Marrone left, the only impact that Marrone had was his timing and really forcing the hand of Gross to make a quick hire with Shafer. That is what impacted us the most. Marrone's recruiting was fine for him because he can coach. Shafer recruited a lot of these guys too.

 

[CuseOnly]

I'm saying he could be:
- not completely sure he wants to fire him now (to be clear, I am)
- and going with the low salary guy over a rough no home field year is advantageous
- pleasing whatever influential boosters he's trying to impress this early in his tenure

I'd prefer:
- move on
- give Babers 6 years (your suggestion)
- get a free year expectation wise to install a new offense

What happens if Shafer is retained with the assumption that there will be a year without a home field and that decision or construction gets postponed? Much like the IPF did for a year.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I personally don't believe the JB salary is that big a deal. The man bleeds Orange and has been underpaid this whole decade. I think that he cares more about assistants salaries and the players getting the charters. Than his salary when he retires the Athletic Department will hire in some capacity like Florida State has done with Bobby Bowden.

We need to spend the extra 3 million now and do it right. Keeping SS means giving him more money and that makes little sense to me when the Dome renovation project price tag is discussed.

JB just works to fund his foundation at this point.

 

[CuseOnly]

All that says doomed.

Low resource environment, seems insane to invest in a stadium upgrade if they are struggling to hit a pay slot a program of this nature should be in.

$600K for all assistants sounds really really low, didn't the Clemson OC make around a mil a few years ago?

 

[PhatOrange]

$600K for all assistants sounds really really low, didn't the Clemson OC make around a mil a few years ago?

That's incredibly low and can't be accurate. I'll have to go find it but i swear Campbell at Toledo got 2.1 mil for his assistants.

 

[TheCusian]

Excuses in my book. We lost a few guys when Marrone left, the only impact that Marrone had was his timing and really forcing the hand of Gross to make a quick hire with Shafer. That is what impacted us the most. Marrone's recruiting was fine for him because he can coach. Shafer recruited a lot of these guys too.

BE talent/less than great recruiting/bad timing vs ACC talent = deficit

Just how much is debatable, but it's obvious

 

[Crusty]

The median for HC and staff in the ACC is about $6 million. We are less than half of that.

 

[TheCusian]

What happens if Shafer is retained with the assumption that there will be a year without a home field and that decision or construction gets postponed? Much like the IPF did for a year.

No idea. I think it's silly to wait if you think you need to make the change

 

[IthacaBarrel]

The median for HC and staff in the ACC is about $6 million. We are less than half of that.

You at least have to get to 5 mil or so, at least be somewhat in the vicinity. 2-2.2.5 mil HC 1 mil for two coordinators. 2 mil for rest of staff.

Nothing more expensive than cheap help.

It's a damn shame we couldn't get 6 wins this year and keep moving forward

 

[Alsacs]

His recruiting classes are "pimped" by the twitter army and people who over follow recruiting. If they say it and we read it enough, people actually believe that these guys are killing it on the recruiting trail. Again we are better than WF there, that is it. If his classes are any better than Marrone's which to me is highly debatable, the reason would be the ACC and the new IPF, nothing that will go away.

Ding ding. We have a winner IMO. Our recruiting class are bottom 25% of the P5 teams and ACC. SS is a slightly better recruiter than Marrone and the twitter Army overrate his recruiting ability.
To compensate for the awful in-game coaching decisions, and mediocre game planning the "twitter Army" bring up the slightly better recruiting and try to create false narratives.


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[Finwad32]

BS, the recruiting is better. That's not despite Marrone, his success got the kids here now willing to listen about Syracuse when they were So's and Jr's. Recruiting is a process mainly about timing and relationships built over years.

The talent uptick is undeniable. And that has nothing to do with rankings or the Twitter Army.

This year's class remains to be seen, I think it's comparable in that there's a handful of future key pieces and a larger group of tbd's.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

BS, the recruiting is better. That's not despite Marrone, his success got the kids here now willing to listen about Syracuse when they were So's and Jr's. Recruiting is a process mainly about timing and relationships built over years.

The talent uptick is undeniable. And that has nothing to do with rankings or the Twitter Army.

This year's class remains to be seen, I think it's comparable in that there's a handful of future key pieces and a larger group of tbd's.

I don't buy it, agree to disagree. Over the top enthusiasm by twitter army, staff especially the recruiting coordinator posting "BOOM" every time someone commits doesn't mean recruiting is better. It's just bluster to me. Get me a class that is 9th or 10th in the ACC and I will agree that it's better

 

[Alsacs]

BS, the recruiting is better. That's not despite Marrone, his success got the kids here now willing to listen about Syracuse when they were So's and Jr's. Recruiting is a process mainly about timing and relationships built over years.

The talent uptick is undeniable. And that has nothing to do with rankings or the Twitter Army.

This year's class remains to be seen, I think it's comparable in that there's a handful of future key pieces and a larger group of tbd's.

Doug Marrone average recruiting ranking was high 50's.
Scott Shafer average recruiting ranking was low 50's.

So yes SS is a better recruiter than DM. However, the difference is not huge. SS should get credit for that but he is not a great recruiter he is just better than DM. DM was better at gameplanning and I would say the difference between the two at that is a lot higher than the difference in recruiting.

Nobody is denying there is an uptick but the Twitter Army in their reasons for wanting to keep SS as HC use his recruiting as one of the reasons. I don't believe our recruiting is that great it is just no doubt better than it was under DM.

I think whomever we bring as HC could do as well as SS at recruiting. SS is just better than DM and that is the point.

 

[Finwad32]

I don't buy it, agree to disagree. Over the top enthusiasm by twitter army, staff especially the recruiting coordinator posting "BOOM" every time someone commits doesn't mean recruiting is better. It's just bluster to me. Get me a class that is 9th or 10th in the ACC and I will agree that it's better

Yeah, our current starting LG played for the mighty Baldwinsville Bees, squaring off against the immense talent of Central Square. Last year, our two least heralded OL recruits came from STA, the PREMIER HS program in the COUNTRY. They played the best talent our nation offers weekly, but, West Genny prolly has some better talent coming up through we could check out.

 

[Finwad32]

The ranking sites have some merits, but, by an large dont know about what they're looking at.

 

[TheCusian]

I don't buy it, agree to disagree. Over the top enthusiasm by twitter army, staff especially the recruiting coordinator posting "BOOM" every time someone commits doesn't mean recruiting is better. It's just bluster to me. Get me a class that is 9th or 10th in the ACC and I will agree that it's better

The 2014 class was 10th in the ACC per 2 4 7 composite rankings. It was the best class of the Marrone/Shafer era.

 

[illi3]

And the top rated talent from that class is playing somewhere else right now.

 

[TheCusian]

I'd also add that the Cuse Twitter Army is doing yeoman's work in trying to counter the twitter fans of other programs and represents us well. I'd rather have them rallying and promoting our recruits and commits than not.

If that adds some fluff? Good. We need it.

 

[Crusty]

Good leaders have the ability to simplify decisions by distilling the issue down to the critical elements. This allows everyone to understand the decision and provide reason to support it.

IMO construction schedule won't matter, this year's recruiting class won't matter, the last 2 games won't matter and Shafer's contract won't matter. Coyle will make (or has made) his decision based on his assessment of the best way to move forward given the resources he has at his disposal. Once the BOT votes on the dome renovation and he has his budget approval for staff he will seek a new staff. If he doesn't get what he wants/needs he will keep the staff and make the best of the situation.

To me this is an obvious decision for Coyl. If he does not get his budget results are not on him. If he does, he owns this program and will want his own guy. None of this other noise matters.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Yeah, our current starting LG played for the mighty Baldwinsville Bees, squaring off against the immense talent of Central Square. Last year, our two least heralded OL recruits came from STA, the PREMIER HS program in the COUNTRY. They played the best talent our nation offers weekly, but, West Genny prolly has some better talent coming up through we could check out.

One of the kids from STA had no 1a offers other than us. Like I said, not buying it and this is last I will post on this, agree to disagree.

Robinson was a late add as well, local kid who has contributed quite significantly. I don't see him being recruited over.

In addition, I will take Atkins/ Marrone experience at OL on who is worthy of an offer and who isn't than Shafer/ Adam. Call me crazy.

We can go round and round, you think it's better I say it isn't. Just a difference in opinion. Whatever the right answer is, it's really not clear either way. It's not significant by any means buts all Shafer has to hang his hat on at this point and I understand that completely. Rocco may have helped at STA as well, do we have any from STA this year? I don't really know or care to look

 

[orangeinjersey]

after reading everything posted here in the last day or two, i think he's a done and the finances are just being straightened out.

 

[Alsacs]

Chakka has laid it out perfectly several pages back. He basically told us I believe the truth.
There are two options and I was wrong. I thought this would be Coyle's call no matter he wanted but Chakka said he needs the green light.
So either the Chancellor/BOT tell Coyle he can spend the necessary money to make a correct change(meaning he can spend market money on a new staff) at the season end or Coyle will be forced to give SS an extension and we go cheap and keep SS because we don't want to spend the necessary money to make a change.
I didn't think the money would be the reason to keep SS but that appears to the main reason if he stays. I was wrong on that one.

 

[Alsacs]

Good leaders have the ability to simplify decisions by distilling the issue down to the critical elements. This allows everyone to understand the decision and provide reason to support it.

IMO construction schedule won't matter, this year's recruiting class won't matter, the last 2 games won't matter and Shafer's contract won't matter. Coyle will make (or has made) his decision based on his assessment of the best way to move forward given the resources he has at his disposal. Once the BOT votes on the dome renovation and he has his budget approval for staff he will seek a new staff. If he doesn't get what he wants/needs he will keep the staff and make the best of the situation.

To me this is an obvious decision for Coyl. If he does not get his budget results are not on him. If he does, he owns this program and will want his own guy. None of this other noise matters.

I would agree with this. I think because of the news we got if no change is made Coyle's hands were tied rather than him owning SS if he keeps him.
It would be disappointing if the Chancellor/BOT put the AD in this position but atleast I can retain confidence in the AD knowing his hands are tied.
I just wouldn't understand why the BOT/Chancellor would be willingly to spend such a high amount on a renovation but wouldn't spend another 3 million dollars on a new staff. It just stinks as SS would need more money to retain the status quo. If SS had two more years on this contract atleast the AD would have something to spin as to why there is no change but giving 14-23 more money is just crazy.

 

[elimunelson]

Chakka has laid it out perfectly several pages back. He basically told us I believe the truth.
There are two options and I was wrong. I thought this would be Coyle's call no matter he wanted but Chakka said he needs the green light.
So either the Chancellor/BOT tell Coyle he can spend the necessary money to make a correct change(meaning he can spend market money on a new staff) at the season end or Coyle will be forced to give SS an extension and we go cheap and keep SS because we don't want to spend the necessary money to make a change.
I didn't think the money would be the reason to keep SS but that appears to the main reason if he stays. I was wrong on that one.

Makes you wonder where we would be right now without the invitation to join the ACC. I mean Syracuse University has to be the worst run athletic dept in America if we can't fire a coach right now due to finances. We laughed at Maryland leaving the ACC for the Big 10 b/c their finances were in shambles but it sounds like ours were as well. The diff being we didn't have to be as open since we are a private university.

The good doctor should be sued for "Gross" negligence. How did he get a job post sacking is beyond me.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Agree on Gross keeping a job, get rid of him that should free up some money. He's ... on a hog at this point probably sending resumes from his desk on a daily basis

Really makes one wonder.