The Coyle decision

[elimunelson]

Agree on Gross keeping a job, get rid of him that should free up some money. He's ... on a hog at this point probably sending resumes from his desk on a daily basis

Really makes one wonder.

Guy was an unmitigated disaster. We spend too much time wondering how GROB was hired but the bigger miss was who hired Gross. We went from an intelligent Crouthamel to a complete buffoon. Jake's time had come but the step down was just off the charts bad.

 

[Finwad32]

Fiscal responsibility was not a strength of the Good Dr. I've heard of multiple instances that, if they are true, were irresponsible at best.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Guy was an unmitigated disaster. We spend too much time wondering how GROB was hired but the bigger miss was who hired Gross. We went from an intelligent Crouthamel to a complete buffoon. Jake's time had come but the step down was just off the charts bad.

Agreed he's just a snake oil salesman, interviewed well with the right resume. How anyone gets a job.

 

[Crusty]

Agree on Gross keeping a job, get rid of him that should free up some money. He's ... on a hog at this point probably sending resumes from his desk on a daily basis

Really makes one wonder.

Probably a contract issue and I guess you will see him leaving soon.

 

[oldpinepoint]

Guy was an unmitigated disaster. We spend too much time wondering how GROB was hired but the bigger miss was who hired Gross. We went from an intelligent Crouthamel to a complete buffoon. Jake's time had come but the step down was just off the charts bad.

Jake stayed too long IMO,

 

[GoSU96]

Cmon. We are playing seniors and juniors where they are better than their counterparts. The problem is there are not a lot of them - especially at key positions like QB, WR, S.

It's really not that debatable. Marrone's recruiting + leaving when he did = impacted the last two seasons.

There were 45 scholarship Freshmen and Sophomores on the roster in 2012, only 20 of those kids are still there, and all but one were on the two deep to start the season.

Kids playing four years and leaving the program early for various reasons impacted the last two years.

 

[GoSU96]

That's incredibly low and can't be accurate. I'll have to go find it but i swear Campbell at Toledo got 2.1 mil for his assistants.

$600K for each coordinator should be the number.

 

[TheCusian]

There were 45 scholarship Freshmen and Sophomores on the roster in 2012, only 20 of those kids are still there, and all but one were on the two deep to start the season.

Kids playing four years and leaving the program early for various reasons impacted the last two years.

That plays a part too. So: Marrone's recruiting + leaving when he did + weird situations where kids left early = impacted the last two seasons.

 

[PhatOrange]

$600K for each coordinator should be the number.

Yeah, I'd agree.

My earlier comment, it was actually Hairsin at Boise. He negotiated with Coyle 2.2 mil for the assistants.

 

[OttoMets]

The smart choice against Pitt late in the game would be to let them score. Chances to win would have still been very slim but that was their only chance of ever seeing the ball again. But Shafer has too much meathead pride to do that.

Quitters. Life lessons. Something something.

 

[SWC75]

1. Shafer's recruiting classes are rated just as high/low as the classes that came before him. The last coaching change didn't cause a talent flow interruption. You're being dramatic.

2. I don't buy it. There are many coaching changes every year.

Shafer's classes are clearly better. I don't have to go to the ratings to see that. Ratings are based on the raters perception of the program more than their perception of the players, some of whom they've never seen in person. And even that is a snapshot: a frame of film in the story fo their development. I haven't seen a Syracuse team with this many good freshmen and sophomores- who are playing because they were better than the juniors and seniors- in years, probalby since the late 80's. .

 

[qdawgg]

Again, why I feel a change has to be made, if the recruiting is better then the coaching is worse than it was under Marrone. I realize these recruits are younger but ED is a better QB than Hunt who was supposed to start all year. When Marrone got here his first year he had 1 month I believe to recruit. He faced difficulties too, along with the b.s. narrative that he was a poor recruiter.

So... if his recruiting was so bad and he was a sh!tty recruiter, the only conclusion I can make as to why the program continues to trend downward and our offensive/defensive rankings are among the worse in CFB the last two years; is the current staff is not getting it done.

 

[reedny]

Michigan, ND and Ped St. have always out-recruited us, that isn't going to change unless we get a Phil Knight infusion of cash.

Well, that's unfortunate. Because right now, those teams are at or below the talent level of FSU and Clemson. So if we want to compete against the big boys in our division, we had better be prepared to do what it takes to upgrade our recruiting to the required level.

Don't talk to me about scheme. Talk to me about talent. Size. Speed. Skill position players that can make a difference. Then once we get some talent on the field, if they're not performing (unlikely), we can address any staff issues that may arise. As of now, we don't have that situation.

Those complaining that we're losing because the coach didn't take a time out here, or didn't try to go for it on 4th down there .. are kidding themselves. We're outmatched at every position except punter in the ACC.

 

[Crusty]

Comparing Marrone's recruiting in the BE with facilities at the time and Shafer in the ACC with facilities now is apples to oranges.

 

[orangenirvana]

BE talent/less than great recruiting/bad timing vs ACC talent = deficit

Just how much is debatable, but it's obvious

Shafer's classes are clearly better. I don't have to go to the ratings to see that. Ratings are based on the raters perception of the program more than their perception of the players, some of whom they've never seen in person. And even that is a snapshot: a frame of film in the story fo their development. I haven't seen a Syracuse team with this many good freshmen and sophomores- who are playing because they were better than the juniors and seniors- in years, probalby since the late 80's. .

If Shafer's classes are better it's not by much. And one could easily attribute that differential to joining the ACC and the upgrades to facilities.

Morris, Lewis, Estime, Parris, Cornelius, McFarlane, Foy, Robinson, Emerich, Trudo, Palmer, Simmons, Raymon, Thompson, Arciniega, Hodge, Whigham, Winfield, Morgan...all upperclassmen recruited by Marrone, still contributing to the program - most haven't been recruited over.

It's not a point where we should be fearful of the effects of our recruiting class(es) when he's fired.

 

[elimunelson]

If Shafer's classes are better it's not by much. And one could easily attribute that differential to joining the ACC and the upgrades to facilities.

It's not a point where we should be fearful of the effects of our recruiting class(es) when he's fired.

Can we bring in Orgeron to really figure out the delta btw good classes of shafer, mediocre ones by Marrone (but w crappier facilities) and super recruiting by Orgeron but with great facilities...my suspicion is we would be back to where we were when Ed was recruiting in the mid 90s (top 35).

 

[orangenirvana]

Can we bring in Orgeron to really figure out the delta btw good classes of shafer, mediocre ones by Marrone (but w crappier facilities) and super recruiting by Orgeron but with great facilities...my suspicion is we would be back to where we were when Ed was recruiting in the mid 90s (top 35).

Babers with Orgeron as AHC/DC would be nice.

And if Marrone's classes are mediocre then I wouldn't call Shafer's good. Even with the aid of the ACC and facility upgrades.

Marrone

2010 - #53
2011 - #51
2012 - #54

Shafer

2014 - #53
2015 - #50

 

[chakka3421]

Another follow up to post #241. Box rental, seats, food and drink averages $65-$70k per box - say 60 boxes (I have never counted them) equals $4 million. Season tickets average as low as $100 to as high as $250 so 20,000 season tickets X $150 conservative equals $3 million. Regular tickets at 15,000 x $20 x 6 games = $2 million. Advertising on the ribbon by companies is $30k so about $1 million. Local TV advertising, radio, etc just add another $1 million. Dome operations is a net zero based on profit from food & drink sales. Then you have to pay for rent to 6 other away game stadiums probably another $1-$2 million. Then there is other stuff that adds more.

So conservately a $12-$15 million drop in SUAD operating budget while Dome is being renovated due to football alone - that's not chump change. That's a killer to SUAD's operating budget and SUAD would probably need to "borrow" from SU the difference "especially if they had to double football coaching salaries" at this time. Now that would be a political hot potato up on the SU hill. Not saying it cannot be done but the timing is way off especially with a potential $2 billion capital campaign and the Dome getting up to 1/4 of the funding.

Personally I would look at it from this perspective. If we were to start winning again, with or without Shafer as I have to let the experts (Coyle & Sevyrud) make that decision, would be how much more revenue can I generate if I could create more of a demand for seating and therefore advertising. If we were to get to an average of 40,000 seats or more sold and raise the price per seat by $50 per seat over the season, there's another $2 million plus and extra 10,000 occupied seats at $150 per seat or another $1.5 million that's covers for the cost of paying what we need to be competitive in the P5 ACC conference. That doesn't include other positive revenue generated by increased demand to pay for double what we do now. I'm just looking at this from a business perspective - either lower costs (like how we pay current football salaries) or raise revenue to be competitive in the ACC at $2.5 million for HC and $500-$600 for each coordinator.

 

[elimunelson]

Another follow up to post #241. Box rental, seats, food and drink averages $65-$70k per box - say 60 boxes (I have never counted them) equals $4 million. Season tickets average as low as $100 to as high as $250 so 20,000 season tickets X $150 conservative equals $3 million. Regular tickets at 15,000 x $20 x 6 games = $2 million. Advertising on the ribbon by companies is $30k so about $1 million. Local TV advertising, radio, etc just add another $1 million. Dome operations is a net zero based on profit from food & drink sales. Then you have to pay for rent to 6 other away game stadiums probably another $1-$2 million. Then there is other stuff that adds more.

So conservately a $12-$15 million drop in SUAD operating budget while Dome is being renovated due to football alone - that's not chump change. That's a killer to SUAD's operating budget and SUAD would probably need to "borrow" from SU the difference "especially if they had to double football coaching salaries" at this time. Now that would be a political hot potato up on the SU hill. Not saying it cannot be done but the timing is way off especially with a potential $2 billion capital campaign and the Dome getting up to 1/4 of the funding.

Personally I would look at it from this perspective. If we were to start winning again, with or without Shafer as I have to let the experts (Coyle & Sevyrud) make that decision, would be how much more revenue can I generate if I could create more of a demand for seating and therefore advertising. If we were to get to an average of 40,000 seats or more sold and raise the price per seat by $50 per seat over the season, there's another $2 million plus and extra 10,000 occupied seats at $150 per seat or another $1.5 million that's covers for the cost of paying what we need to be competitive in the P5 ACC conference. That doesn't include other positive revenue generated by increased demand to pay for double what we do now. I'm just looking at this from a business perspective - either lower costs (like how we pay current football salaries) or raise revenue to be competitive in the ACC at $2.5 million for HC and $500-$600 for each coordinator.

at this point it begs the question: Why did we even enter the ACC? If the extra money doesn't add up to competing or having a competitive team, we would be better served in AAC, no Dome expansion, and the hoops team in some sort of a big east hybrid still.

Of course that's a flippant way to look at things but the financials seem to be VERY dire or the message from Chakka's sources is "we want people to think it's dire."

It's important to note imagine we had a HC who was making a much larger salary and we were winning 3 games per year and he had 3 years left. There's zero chance we could do anything about it.

 

[jr4750]

at this point it begs the question: Why did we even enter the ACC? If the extra money doesn't add up to competing or having a competitive team, we would be better served in AAC, no Dome expansion, and the hoops team in some sort of a big east hybrid still.

Of course that's a flippant way to look at things but the financials seem to be VERY dire or the message from Chakka's sources is "we want people to think it's dire."

It's important to note imagine we had a HC who was making a much larger salary and we were winning 3 games per year and he had 3 years left. There's zero chance we could do anything about it.

I'm kinda with ya Eli. Seems we're stuck, and that shouldn't be the problem. Can't move forward and can't go backward. Somethings gotta give.

Syverud could go all Julie Hermann and just say that we've decided not to compete in football, so don't expect anything drastic.

 

[TheCusian]

If Shafer's classes are better it's not by much. And one could easily attribute that differential to joining the ACC and the upgrades to facilities. Morris, Lewis, Estime, Parris, Cornelius, McFarlane, Foy, Robinson, Emerich, Trudo, Palmer, Simmons, Raymon, Thompson, Arciniega, Hodge, Whigham, Winfield, Morgan...all upperclassmen recruited by Marrone, still contributing to the program - most haven't been recruited over. It's not a point where we should be fearful of the effects of our recruiting class(es) when he's fired.

It doesn't matter how they are attributed. Or why they are better at recruiting. They are better.

I agree that a new coach will have those same advantages - but recruiting almost always takes a hit when you change coaches, short term.

Estime, Winfield - are both Shafer kids. BTW

 

[TheCusian]

at this point it begs the question: Why did we even enter the ACC? If the extra money doesn't add up to competing or having a competitive team, we would be better served in AAC, no Dome expansion, and the hoops team in some sort of a big east hybrid still. Of course that's a flippant way to look at things but the financials seem to be VERY dire or the message from Chakka's sources is "we want people to think it's dire." It's important to note imagine we had a HC who was making a much larger salary and we were winning 3 games per year and he had 3 years left. There's zero chance we could do anything about it.

Because more $ > less $?

The school is rightly looking for balance and at the big picture. Rutgers has been mortgaging themselves for years - unsustainable and poorly managed - but now they are just poor/mediocre instead of straight up awful.

I want the school to do well AND athletics to do well.

 

[jr4750]

Because more $ > less $?

The school is rightly looking for balance and at the big picture. Rutgers has been mortgaging themselves for years - unsustainable and poorly managed - but now they are just poor/mediocre instead of straight up awful.

I want the school to do well AND athletics to do well.

I want that too, but the question then is can we get out of this situation by buying back excitement or should we stay the course and expect mediocrity or less?

I realize the university is about to redo the dome so that definitely shows commitment on their behalf. Paying market rate for coaches, specifically football, I think is fair for us as fans to hope for. We've been incredibly lucky with JB in hoops and now have to hope Hop continues to keep us relevant and the fans keep coming. The big schools pay for high expectations with the best possible coaches. It's rare that a homegrown bargain pushes them to the top.

 

[TheCusian]

I want that too, but the question then is can we get out of this situation by buying back excitement or should we stay the course and expect mediocrity or less? I realize the university is about to redo the dome so that definitely shows commitment on their behalf. Paying market rate for coaches, specifically football, I think is fair for us as fans to hope for. We've been incredibly lucky with JB in hoops and now have to hope Hop continues to keep us relevant and the fans keep coming. The big schools pay for high expectations with the best possible coaches. It's rare that a homegrown bargain pushes them to the top.

Oh - I agree. I'm for a move and paying like a middle of the pack ACC school. But I'm not privy to all of the financial data and issues. The posts here have been helpful at trying to get an idea of the issues with this particular offseason. Dome renovations and a new coach might be a real challenge.

 

[Chip]

The buyout for Les Miles and his staff at LSU is $20 million and the school says it wouldn't flinch if it decides to go that way.

And people think we can compete at that level?

Yes.

Sort of.

The 85 scholarship limit and the ACC are our friend.

We don't have to compete with LSU. We should target being no worse than 3rd in the ACC Atlantic. Every so often when the stars align (and they will), you beat Clemson and FSU.

Do people think we can't exploit our Dome and our brand to move ahead of programs like NC State, Louisville, BC, Pitt?

6-2 ACC, 3-1 OOC is a really nice season.

5-3 ACC, 3-1 OCC is a good season.

4-4 ACC, 3-1 OCC is an acceptable season.

4-4 ACC, 2-2 OCC (or 5-3, 3-1) is a bowl game.

If people don't think the first two ranges are possible on a consistent basis, and the bottom two are there in transition years, then I don't know why you would keep following. Unless you like the pain.