"The Dome roof"

[Alsacs]

It's not going to happen.

It’s good you aren’t in the SU legal department.

Syracuse is negotiating for new naming rights deal on Carrier Dome (report)

They are going to get out of the Carrier deal. Either Carrier pays a lot more money or the facility will have a new corporate sponsor.

 

[CuseLegacy]

It’s good you aren’t in the SU legal department.

Syracuse is negotiating for new naming rights deal on Carrier Dome (report)

They are going to get out of the Carrier deal. Either Carrier pays a lot more money or the facility will have a new corporate sponsor.

Who is to say that they haven't negotiated a deal in regards to the renovation of the Dome.

 

[rocklloyd]

Syracuse Says 36 Years Is Enough on Permanent Stadium Name Deal

Yes. If Carrier doesn’t give us a new deal if the Administration knocks off a wall and rebuilds the Dome in a renovation it’s a new facility and the contract lapses.

Sorry but not quite accurate.

 

[Alsacs]

Who is to say that they haven't negotiated a deal in regards to the renovation of the Dome.

Person I talked to who works in the AD told me exactly what I said.
When the renovation happens they will do work to make the facility more handicap accessible and to do that they will knock down a portion of the Dome.
They will rebuild and by the terms of the original contract in 1979 it’s a new facility.
Carrier’s Perpetuity naming rights are gone.
Carrier could pay to keep them but they haven’t yet.

 

[Alsacs]

Sorry but not quite accurate.

How so?

 

[CuseLegacy]

Person I talked to who works in the AD told me exactly what I said.
When the renovation happens they will do work to make the facility more handicap accessible and to do that they will knock down a portion of the Dome.
They will rebuild and by the terms of the original contract in 1979 it’s a new facility.
Carrier’s Perpetuity naming rights are gone.
Carrier could pay to keep them but they haven’t yet.

Negotiations don't always mean an exchange of money.

 

[TexanMark]

Agreed I am on thin skinned side and couldn’t be as civil as that was.

Don't worry you are still one of my favorite "fly off the handle" guys...you have an opinion and are not afraid to step on toes to share it. I respect your passion...

 

[orange79]

Shhhhh...some people don't understand commercial construction.

Hey!

 

[NJCuse97]

Cute, but Rheem does not make equipment to handle dome

Trane it is then! A whole new Express!

 

[NJCuse97]

Person I talked to who works in the AD told me exactly what I said.
When the renovation happens they will do work to make the facility more handicap accessible and to do that they will knock down a portion of the Dome.
They will rebuild and by the terms of the original contract in 1979 it’s a new facility.
Carrier’s Perpetuity naming rights are gone.
Carrier could pay to keep them but they haven’t yet.

I would be surprised if legally you would win an argument that constituted a new building simply by bringing the existing building up to current codes. I suppose it's not entirely out of the question, but there could be a lot of periphery costs with officially calling this a new building, and other code implications that are not tied to just accessibility.

 

[FrancoPizza]

I would be surprised if legally you would win an argument that constituted a new building simply by bringing the existing building up to current codes. I suppose it's not entirely out of the question, but there could be a lot of periphery costs with officially calling this a new building, and other code implications that are not tied to just accessibility.

Well, we're already talking a new roof. If you start knocking down some walls... you're halfway to a completely new structure.

 

[upperdeck]

what makes something a dome? isnt it the style of roof?

 

[CarolinaCuse]

what makes something a dome? isnt it the style of roof?

Because my wife says I'm a smarta**:

dome
dōm/
noun
noun: dome; plural noun: domes

1. 1.
   a rounded vault forming the roof of a building or structure, typically with a circular base.
   "the dome of St. Paul's Cathedral"
   synonyms: cupola, vault, arched roof, rotunda
   "the distinctive dome of the cathedral"
   • the revolving openable hemispherical roof of an observatory.
   • North American
     a sports stadium with a domed roof.
2. 2.
   a thing shaped like a dome, in particular.

 

[upperdeck]

so a new roof makes it not a dome.. hence carrier dome name is gone, it becomes the carrier skillion? carrier jerkinhead? carrier masard? carrier gambrel? carrier gable?

 

[cusefan88]

Person I talked to who works in the AD told me exactly what I said.
When the renovation happens they will do work to make the facility more handicap accessible and to do that they will knock down a portion of the Dome.
They will rebuild and by the terms of the original contract in 1979 it’s a new facility.
Carrier’s Perpetuity naming rights are gone.
Carrier could pay to keep them but they haven’t yet.

I still don't see where they have space to knock down an outer wall and build a sufficient support structure. But hey, a nice challenge for an engineering firm. Pete Sala is a sharp guy and knows what is feasible and what's not. Hopefully they figure it out.

 

[Alsacs]

I still don't see where they have space to knock down an outer wall and build a sufficient support structure. But hey, a nice challenge for an engineering firm. Pete Sala is a sharp guy and knows what is feasible and what's not. Hopefully they figure it out.

I was told it would be on the Gate E side towards the quad and Hendricks.

That portion of the Dome could have support to make it more feasible for handicap or people with bad knees easier access into the stadium.

When the renovation takes place Syracuse will have legal standing to get out of the Carrier naming rights deal if a portion of the facility is torn down and with a new top creating a new facility.

Carrier could I guess sue but it’s doubtful a court in CNY would side with them.

 

[RandomGuy]

If the current structure cannot support a fixed roof, why not encapsulate(bnoro) with 4 new walls? 4 new walls and a roof sound like a new structure, to me.

Blow out a wall/walls to tie into the new structure, add amenities, accessibility, etc. All new seats. Any part of the old dome would be relegated to bleacher support, if that isn't also addressed. You could argue that is a new dome.

 

[reedny]

I would be surprised if legally you would win an argument that constituted a new building simply by bringing the existing building up to current codes. I suppose it's not entirely out of the question, but there could be a lot of periphery costs with officially calling this a new building, and other code implications that are not tied to just accessibility.

I think your analysis is on point. You don't get out of a 'perpetual' naming contract by repainting a few walls and moving a hot dog stand. However, as more and more significant changes are made (fact question), the "new stadium" argument gets better. It all depends on what's going to be done. As just one example, the minute they replace the roof (probably with ETFE), it's no longer a "dome". It's a hard roof. The same goes with significant structural changes. And so forth.

The courts like "perpetual" contracts about as much as they like usury.

But Xc84 and I went toe-to-toe on this debate a few months back and he made some very good opposing points. In the end, as TexanMark predicted, this will probably get negotiated and settled IF renovation is the plan. From my sources, Skytop is still in play. Legacy has different information and that's fine. We'll see.

 

[xc84]

I think your analysis is on point. You don't get out of a 'perpetual' naming contract by repainting a few walls and moving a hot dog stand. However, as more and more significant changes are made (fact question), the "new stadium" argument gets better. It all depends on what's going to be done. As just one example, the minute they replace the roof (probably with ETFE), it's no longer a "dome". It's a hard roof. The same goes with significant structural changes. And so forth.

The courts like "perpetual" contracts about as much as they like usury.

But Xc84 and I went toe-to-toe on this debate a few months back and he made some very good opposing points. In the end, as TexanMark predicted, this will probably get negotiated and settled IF renovation is the plan. From my sources, Skytop is still in play. Legacy has different information and that's fine. We'll see.

A new roof, especially a structure that replaces an air-supported fabric with a truss supported fixed roof may constitute a different structure than what Carrier helped build. That could be the key to the building Carrier funded no longer existing and therefore the name is gone. The only other thing I will add is that Carrier didn't get "naming rights". The name was bestowed based on a gift from a donor...just like many buildings at SU.

 

[reedny]

A new roof, especially a structure that replaces an air-supported fabric with a truss supported fixed roof may constitute a different structure than what Carrier helped build. That could be the key to the building Carrier funded no longer existing and therefore the name is gone. The only other thing I will add is that Carrier didn't get "naming rights". The name was bestowed based on a gift from a donor...just like many buildings at SU.

You might be right, although that wouldn't make a drastic difference legally. The contract would settle it -- but it's not public. My description comes from media and the University itself. Both have used the term "naming". For example:

The Carrier Corporation presented the naming gift for the building prior to its opening in September, 1980. The dedication of the football field is enabled by an amendment to the original Carrier Dome naming contract with Carrier Corp.
Introducing ‘Ernie Davis Legends Field at the Carrier Dome’

Back in 1980 when the stadium opened, the CEO of Carrier, Mel Holm, signed a deal in which he gave $2.75 million to Syracuse University in exchange for naming rights to the stadium in perpetuity.
Syracuse University is tired of its horrible 36-year-old naming rights deal

Carrier secured the permanent naming rights before the stadium opened in 1980 for $2.75 million, a deal which has cost Syracuse University as naming rights have become more valuable.
Report: SU pursuing new naming rights agreement for Carrier Dome

OTOH, this account sounds more like a gift (?):
Syracuse remains wed to Carrier as college naming rights industry takes off

 

[FrancoPizza]

Skytop is still in play.

When I think of the SU campus, it's Marshall Street, Sheraton, the Quad and the Dome. Skytop doesn't accomplish anything other than saying it's still "on campus". Might as well consider the Inner Harbor or the fairgrounds as well then, seeing as those sites offer different upsides.

 

[reedny]

When I think of the SU campus, it's Marshall Street, Sheraton, the Quad and the Dome. Skytop doesn't accomplish anything other than saying it's still "on campus". Might as well consider the Inner Harbor or the fairgrounds as well then, seeing as those sites offer different upsides.

South Campus is still part of campus though. Manley fieldhouse, the Melo center, the FB facilities, practice fields .. and I believe that there are arts buildings also there. Some of the South Campus dorms would have to be removed. But it's part of campus ... just more room. I love the Dome's location too. But LOTS of structural work would need to be done to make it SOA. That doesn't mean it won't happen.

 

[xc84]

I haven't seen the contract ... that would settle it. My description comes from media and the University itself. Both have used the term "naming", not just a "gift" with a bestowed benefit. For example:

The Carrier Corporation presented the naming gift for the building prior to its opening in September, 1980. The dedication of the football field is enabled by an amendment to the original Carrier Dome naming contract with Carrier Corp.
Introducing ‘Ernie Davis Legends Field at the Carrier Dome’

Back in 1980 when the stadium opened, the CEO of Carrier, Mel Holm, signed a deal in which he gave $2.75 million to Syracuse University in exchange for naming rights to the stadium in perpetuity.
Syracuse University is tired of its horrible 36-year-old naming rights deal

Carrier secured the permanent naming rights before the stadium opened in 1980 for $2.75 million, a deal which has cost Syracuse University as naming rights have become more valuable.
Report: SU pursuing new naming rights agreement for Carrier Dome

Can Syracuse Get Out of the Carrier Naming Deal?

"At the time, there was no such thing as stadium naming rights. Only a handful of arenas or stadiums actually had corporate names and the idea of a company paying for the right to have their name used for the name of the arena probably seemed...slightly wrong. The same way many people look at advertising on uniforms (which will happen eventually and people will just get used to it).

So when Syracuse got a $2.75 million gift from Carrier to help it meet it's $12 million goal, it made sense to just go ahead and call it The Carrier Dome in perpetuity. It's not like anyone could envision a time when it would come up again in the future..."

Carrier Dome renovation: Can Syracuse University correct $1 million mistake?

"That deal, announced by the school and Carrier on Feb. 15, 1979, named the stadium in exchange for a gift of $2.75 million, helping the school toward a fundraising goal of nearly $12 million."

Name game: SU bound to Carrier for the Dome as others find more lucrative deals

"When the Carrier Dome was built in 1980, only one detail was certain about its future. It would always be called the Carrier Dome.

A $2.75 million gift from Mel Holm, the CEO of Carrier Corporation, gave Carrier the naming rights of the Dome in perpetuity."

Crouse College naming:
"The building cost almost half a million dollars and was a gift from local merchant and banker, John Crouse, and his son, D. Edgar Crouse."

 

[cusefan88]

I was told it would be on the Gate E side towards the quad and Hendricks.

That portion of the Dome could have support to make it more feasible for handicap or people with bad knees easier access into the stadium.

When the renovation takes place Syracuse will have legal standing to get out of the Carrier naming rights deal if a portion of the facility is torn down and with a new top creating a new facility.

Carrier could I guess sue but it’s doubtful a court in CNY would side with them.

Interesting. Obviously that's the only location that has some space. Still would need to perhaps demolish and/or move other things in that area. Can't destroy the Physics Building and Bursar's Office.

 

[reedny]

Can Syracuse Get Out of the Carrier Naming Deal?

"At the time, there was no such thing as stadium naming rights. Only a handful of arenas or stadiums actually had corporate names and the idea of a company paying for the right to have their name used for the name of the arena probably seemed...slightly wrong. The same way many people look at advertising on uniforms (which will happen eventually and people will just get used to it).

So when Syracuse got a $2.75 million gift from Carrier to help it meet it's $12 million goal, it made sense to just go ahead and call it The Carrier Dome in perpetuity. It's not like anyone could envision a time when it would come up again in the future..."

Carrier Dome renovation: Can Syracuse University correct $1 million mistake?

"That deal, announced by the school and Carrier on Feb. 15, 1979, named the stadium in exchange for a gift of $2.75 million, helping the school toward a fundraising goal of nearly $12 million."

Name game: SU bound to Carrier for the Dome as others find more lucrative deals

"When the Carrier Dome was built in 1980, only one detail was certain about its future. It would always be called the Carrier Dome.

A $2.75 million gift from Mel Holm, the CEO of Carrier Corporation, gave Carrier the naming rights of the Dome in perpetuity."

So, it's pretty clear that there was a contract, that the contract contained terms providing for a purchase of rights and/or a gift to the U for the Dome construction. If the agreement talked about a "gift" and also discussed the use of the name "Carrier", then we're probably both correct. Again, not sure it makes a drastic difference legally, since significant changes to the roof and structure will probably get SU out of the deal.