The latest all encompassing recruiting thread

[money3189]

I got that but it points to the futility of his argument as those guys are demonstrably better than what we had. The bigger point is there were NY products. Just like Isaiah Wilson who was a 1st rd T the other day. But since he brought up Samuels lets look at OH St. They have TE Ruckert who is #1 on depth chart and the 4star OT Matt Jones who would've easily started for us day 1 looking at our line play smh. Also the starting K for them last year was the kid Haubell from Buffalo. So OH ST seems to like our top end talent. Just wished we kept more of it at home.

General Joe you are being too general again. We all know its important to put most of your time into regional products. The staff want the best players in the region but you make it seem like they are choosing not to focus on them. Its the other way around. You are assuming high end players want to play for a losing instate team. High profile recruits like Trill and Qadir White have to win here and then they need to make NFL rosters. That's what prospects want to see. I'm as pro NYS players as they come but we dont have a lot of depth of talent. We cant win with all 2nd/3rd tier kids. Top tier guys aren't consistently coming to Cuse until we consistently win. I dont know why you keep ignoring the WIN part.

 

[money3189]

You need sales training ... that is the conclusion I can derive from this ... try listening to the brutal truth podcast. And why is it 5 star kids go to factories ... its called exposure or like Ishaq said "his brand" you forget they have to sell themselves too.

He said he's in sales but he's not recognizing the two major factors. Winning and the NFL. That's why players worry about their brand.

 

[wfschrec]

He said he's in sales but he's not recognizing the two major factors. Winning and the NFL. That's why players worry about their brand.

Well thank God he doesn't manage my ISRs, I would have fired him.

 

[wfschrec]

He said he's in sales but he's not recognizing the two major factors. Winning and the NFL. That's why players worry about their brand.

BTW money maybe you disagree but Benson = Ruckert IMHO. I think long term his numbers will be better look at Ruckert as a soph, Benson true frosh will be a good one.

 

[General Joe]

General Joe you are being too general again. We all know its important to put most of your time into regional products. The staff want the best players in the region but you make it seem like they are choosing not to focus on them. Its the other way around. You are assuming high end players want to play for a losing instate team. High profile recruits like Trill and Qadir White have to win here and then they need to make NFL rosters. That's what prospects what to see. I'm as pro NYS players as they come but we dont have a lot of depth of talent. We cant win with all 2nd/3rd tier kids. Top tier guys aren't consistently coming to Cuse until we consistently win. I dont know why you keep ignoring the WIN part.

So this is where we go around in circles. Cant get better players until we win while at the same time we cant win without better players.

We still end up at that same spot. Is it more likely that a local 4 star recruit will attend Syracuse or a 4 star from 1300 miles away. You sorta answer the question for me by mentioning Trill and Q White I would throw in TD. Those are the 3 players that were ranked 4 star by atleast 1 of the majors recruited by HCDB. All 3 are from NY and NJ "our territory"

 

[General Joe]

BTW money maybe you disagree but Benson = Ruckert IMHO. I think long term his numbers will be better look at Ruckert as a soph, Benson true frosh will be a good one.

Its a long stretch to say Benson and Ruckert are equal. Ruckert is a better blocker than some of the guys we had playing OT last year. But we throw the ball a ton and are usually losing so its possible.

 

[General Joe]

You need sales training ... that is the conclusion I can derive from this ... try listening to the brutal truth podcast. And why is it 5 star kids go to factories ... its called exposure or like Ishaq said "his brand" you forget they have to sell themselves too.

Boy wfschrec you got wayy of topic and alot of posts. Lets try to get back to your original post.
With all due respect I am less interested in what one recruit says who we never really had a shot at, but more interested in those local recruits we might. To use your example Curtis Samuels wasn't a 5 star kid. Neither was Qaidree Ollison the kid from Cannisius who plays for Pitt and ran all over us. I can give you multiple examples of NYS kids playing all over who would be starters for us.

Here is something I think we can all agree on, if your good enough for the NFL you will get drafted in the NFL regardless of where you play college ball. Just look at my example of Ed Oliver. Another just to hammer the point home is Carson Wentz. So that renders your point mute.

Another thing we should all agree on Playing in the P5 is the highest exposure you can have in college football. We are a P5 school you cant get any higher

We should all agree that there are kids who want to play for "state" and some that want to go away to a factory. I am simply saying focus on the local kids. As I originally pointed out they are higher rated than the kids we have been signing

I dont understand why and how you dont see the talent in the "territory" I pointed out (NY NJ PA MA MA). If you truly dont (although I think you do) I will just say Lets go Orange! And leave it alone

 

[money3189]

So this is where we go around in circles. Cant get better players until we win while at the same time we cant win without better players.

We still end up at that same spot. Is it more likely that a local 4 star recruit will attend Syracuse or a 4 star from 1300 miles away. You sorta answer the question for me by mentioning Trill and Q White I would throw in TD. Those are the 3 players that were ranked 4 star by atleast 1 of the majors recruited by HCDB. All 3 are from NY and NJ "our territory"

No circles. You are wrong. Kids want to see if you can win by developing less talented players. Then they will jump on board. That's what we have to do. We have to develop and out scheme more talented teams. How the hell did you think Coach Mac did it?

Why do you think landing a few 4 stars is the answer? I just told you that those guys have to perform at a high level and win. Landing them doesn't mean squat. If they don't pan out it hurts are chances of getting more higher level guys to come. We have to win with those players. Its not rocket science.

 

[General Joe]

No circles. You are wrong. Kids want to see if you can win by developing less talented players. Then they will jump on board. That's what we have to do. We have to develop and out scheme more talented teams. How the hell did you think Coach Mac did it?

Why do you think landing a few 4 stars is the answer? I just told you that those guys have to perform at a high level and win. Landing them doesn't mean squat. If they don't pan out it hurts are chances of getting more higher level guys to come. We have to win with those players. Its not rocket science.

I will give you that kids want to know that THEY will be developed regardless of how many stars they are. But what your saying is a little different. Just so I understand, you think high school kids sit around and look at how a school develops and wins with bad kids to determine if they will go to that school? Never ever ever ever ever heard a kid say that. I have heard them say they want to go play with player X because he is a stud, or they are going somewhere because they will play right away, or the schools is a factory etc etc. But "hey I am a 4 star but am going to Syracuse because they won with a bunch of 2 stars". Wow never heard that. Its a interesting thought process for 17 and 18 year old kids but you could be correct. Do you have tape of a kid saying that or is it in thewriteup when a kid signs? If this is not just your opinion and something recruits actually say I would love to see that.

 

[money3189]

I will give you that kids want to know that THEY will be developed regardless of how many stars they are. But what your saying is a little different. Just so I understand, you think high school kids sit around and look at how a school develops and wins with bad kids to determine if they will go to that school? Never ever ever ever ever heard a kid say that. I have heard them say they want to go play with player X because he is a stud, or they are going somewhere because they will play right away, or the schools is a factory etc etc. But "hey I am a 4 star but am going to Syracuse because they won with a bunch of 2 stars". Wow never heard that. Its a interesting thought process for 17 and 18 year old kids but you could be correct. Do you have tape of a kid saying that or is it in thewriteup when a kid signs? If this is not just your opinion and something recruits actually say I would love to see that.

lol, how the hell did you come up with that conclusion after hearing me say kids want to see coaches develop players and win. Of course that's not the sole reason lol but coaching FACTORS into their decision. Ive never seen a losing program just all of a sudden start getting 4/5 stars. You have to show some ability to coach with what you got. Show some evidence of your development, scheme and winning culture. I mention scheme because kids want to envision themselves in a system that utilizes their skill set and wins games.

You dodge all the questions I ask. I will try again. Answer these. Coach Mac went from 2-9, 6-5, 6-5, 7-5, 5-6 to 11-0 and 10-2. How did he do that? How did he get kids to believe after going 2-9?

 

[kcsu]

lol, how the hell did you come up with that conclusion after hearing me say kids want to see coaches develop players and win. Of course that's not the sole reason lol but coaching FACTORS into their decision. Ive never seen a losing program just all of a sudden start getting 4/5 stars. You have to show some ability to coach with what you got. Show some evidence of your development, scheme and winning culture. I mention scheme because kids want to envision themselves in a system that utilizes their skill set and wins games.

You dodge all the questions I ask. I will try again. Answer these. Coach Mac went from 2-9, 6-5, 6-5, 7-5, 5-6 to 11-0 and 10-2. How did he do that? How did he get kids to believe after going 2-9?

Mac also had a great staff. Dino made the right move hiring new OC and DC as we were never going to win with either of them. Lewis was obviously a huge loss and Martin was way out of his depth as a QB coach. Resulting in last years train wreck.
Lets hope the new coaches who have zero east coast ties can recruit and coach.

 

[jmcclure33]

lol, how the hell did you come up with that conclusion after hearing me say kids want to see coaches develop players and win. Of course that's not the sole reason lol but coaching FACTORS into their decision. Ive never seen a losing program just all of a sudden start getting 4/5 stars. You have to show some ability to coach with what you got. Show some evidence of your development, scheme and winning culture. I mention scheme because kids want to envision themselves in a system that utilizes their skill set and wins games.

You dodge all the questions I ask. I will try again. Answer these. Coach Mac went from 2-9, 6-5, 6-5, 7-5, 5-6 to 11-0 and 10-2. How did he do that? How did he get kids to believe after going 2-9?

You can also look at Texas Tech for basketball. Beard brought a team full of unranked and 3 star kids to the national championship and got one of them drafted in the top 10. Then proceeds to have one of the best recruiting years in recent memory for the program (top 20 class), turns one of the freshman from that class into a one and done, and now has a top 10 class for 2020. Winning and getting guys drafted seems to make coaches much better recruiters.

 

[money3189]

You can also look at Texas Tech for basketball. Beard brought a team full of unranked and 3 star kids to the national championship and got one of them drafted in the top 10. Then proceeds to have one of the best recruiting years in recent memory for the program (top 20 class), turns one of the freshman from that class into a one and done, and now has a top 10 class for 2020. Winning and getting guys drafted seems to make coaches much better recruiters.

Exactly. Great example.

 

[money3189]

Mac also had a great staff. Dino made the right move hiring new OC and DC as we were never going to win with either of them. Lewis was obviously a huge loss and Martin was way out of his depth as a QB coach. Resulting in last years train wreck.
Lets hope the new coaches who have zero east coast ties can recruit and coach.

My response is as more about reminding him of how we did it in the past. Wasn’t a slight on Dino but I agree with what you said.

 

[PhatOrange]

For the record we had a 0.0% chance of landing Ruckert. I know because my best bud went to high school with his Dad on Long Island. Id post the locker room speech on my buddies FB page and tag Dad, I’d talk syracuse and theyd laugh. If it wasn’t Ohio State it would’ve been Notre Dame. In fact we were both a bit surprised it wasn’t ND.

 

[money3189]

.

For the record we had a 0.0% chance of landing Ruckert. I know because my best bud went to high school with his Dad on Long Island. I’d talk syracuse and theyd laugh. Id post the locker room speech on my buddies FB and tag Dad. If it wasn’t Ohio State it would’ve been Notre Dame. In fact we were both a bit surprised it wasn’t ND.

Thanks for the insight. I will share too. I had to force Jarron Jones and his family to go to junior day with me. He already had his mind made up about not going to Cuse but went as a courtesy. He also wanted to watch the hoops game. What made it tough is that the family are huge Syracuse hoops fans. I’ve watched several games with them. Throughout their recruitment I literally mentioned Cuse football to Jarron and Jamir every time I saw them. They got tired of hearing me. Lol.

 

[PhatOrange]

Thanks for the insight.

Thanks for the insight. I will share too. I had to force Jarron Jones and his family to go to junior day with me. He already had his mind made up about not going to Cuse but went as a courtesy. He also wanted to watch the hoops game. What made it tough is that the family are huge Syracuse hoops fans. I’ve watched several games with them. Throughout their recruitment I literally mentioned Cuse football to Jarron and Jamir every time I saw them. They got tired of hearing me. Lol.

yeah I'll add they're huge Irish fans but (to me anyways) seemed completely star struck by Urban Meyer.

 

[sutomcat]

For the record we had a 0.0% chance of landing Ruckert. I know because my best bud went to high school with his Dad on Long Island. Id post the locker room speech on my buddies FB page and tag Dad, I’d talk syracuse and theyd laugh. If it wasn’t Ohio State it would’ve been Notre Dame. In fact we were both a bit surprised it wasn’t ND.

There is little or no state pride amongst HS football players in NYS. Very sad.

I think it will take 4 or 5 years of sustained winning seasons before that comes back.

 

[PhatOrange]

There is little or no state pride amongst HS football players in NYS. Very sad.

I think it will take 4 or 5 years of sustained winning seasons before that comes back.

Yup and you can believe there is zero state pride for anyone south of Westchester out to Montauk.

Then again we're not a State school. Imagine if we had 40K students and 10 generations of families went to school here, it would be a completely different ball game.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Yup and you can believe there is zero state pride for anyone south of Westchester out to Montauk.

Then again we're not a State school. Imagine if we had 40K students and 10 generations of families went to school here, it would be a completely different ball game.

It's an extremely tough sell to any of the top NYS kids regardless as well as other NE kids regardless of what many choose to post here. It's very difficult product regardless of who is the salesman

 

[money3189]

BTW fellas have you guys seen UB's class so far? They are killin it. Big reason for this is that they had 3 winning seasons in a row. They are not too behind us in rankings. They are on their way to the best class they ever had and guess what? They only have 1 NYS commit out of 14. A NYC kid. That says a lot about the state. We are not deep in talent and also there's still a lack of state pride like you guys said. Players from other states are jumping on the UB train but in state kids are not.

 

[sutomcat]

BTW fellas have you guys seen UB's class so far? They are killin it. They are not too behind us in rankings. They are on their way to the best class they ever had and guess what? They only have 1 NYS commit out of 14. A NYC kid. That says a lot about the state. We are not deep in talent and also there's still a lack of state pride like you guys said. Players from other states are jumping on the UB train but in state kids are not.

UB is doing well for UB and their recruiting ranking might be close to ours but if you look closely, you will note that they don't have a single player verballed that we offered. They are beating out fellow MAC schools for most of their recruits. They have hurt Iowa State quite a lot. Taken a couple from similar level schools like UMass, Rutgers, UConn and Temple.

I wouldn't trade their class for ours...not close in my mind. I might take one or two of their recruits. That is about it.

Glad they are doing well. I hope they win the MAC. This year, right now their class is third in the MAC and around 66th in the country. Last year, they were 13th in the MAC and 130th nationally.

 

[PhatOrange]

It's an extremely tough sell to any of the top NYS kids regardless as well as other NE kids regardless of what many choose to post here. It's very difficult product regardless of who is the salesman

truly...I think our biggest sell for a NY kid is to A) be close to home for friends and family, B) playing in the ACC and the Dome/facilites for the perfect conditions and fast track. As a football recruit, I'd rather play for Syracuse in a southern conference (Clemson, FSU etc) than play out in the midwest of the big 10. That would not be for me.

(apologies to our Syracuse alum but the education factor isn't really a sell imo. It can be but it's toward the bottom. kids for the most part are here to play football and to shoot for the nfl not learn about aristotle.)

 

[money3189]

UB is doing well for UB and their recruiting ranking might be close to ours but if you look closely, you will note that they don't have a single player verballed that we offered. They are beating out fellow MAC schools for most of their recruits. They have hurt Iowa State quite a lot. Taken a couple from similar level schools like UMass, Rutgers, UConn and Temple.

I wouldn't trade their class for ours...not close in my mind. I might take one or two of their recruits. That is about it.

Glad they are doing well. I hope they win the MAC. This year, right now their class is third in the MAC and around 66th in the country. Last year, they were 13th in the MAC and 130th nationally.

Im not comparing them to us or the ACC. I'm comparing them to MAC standards. They are actually number 1 in the MAC. Average rating is better. Toledo just has more commits. The top MAC recruiting class normally have a average of 82. UB has a 83 right now.

 

[Sudano]

Why do you think landing a few 4 stars is the answer? I just told you that those guys have to perform at a high level and win. Landing them doesn't mean squat. If they don't pan out it hurts are chances of getting more higher level guys to come. We have to win with those players. Its not rocket science.

Because statistically speaking having a full team of more talented players compensates for the few that inevitably won't match their expectations. Recruiting is a numbers game not an individual players game.