The truth about Trevor

[MikeSU02]

Richardson: 4-9 from three "best shooter ever!"

Cooney: 3-9 from three "worst shooter ever!"

True frosh in his first regular season game versus a fifth year senior who has career averages of 33% 3Pt FG% and 37Fg% overall.

No difference at all.

 

[iommi]

It's amazing that all the shooting experts have already written Trevor off as only an average shooter after one game. He's been our best shooter over the past three years and it hasn't even been close. I'll say a JB and say we wouldn't have won 10 --- games the last two years without Trevor. People need to give this a rest. I'll take a team of Trevor's any day of the week.

JB loves TC and it's probably justified because of TC's work ethic. TC has been a great representative of the University and I'm sure a great teammate.

That said, he has not really improved measurably at all, especially with his outside shooting. Maybe he's become a slightly better passer. To say "he's been our best shooter over the past three years and it hasn't been close" is 100% bull.

 

[orangefan13]

Triche is a great comparison was a 3rd-4th go to guy, in terms of mismatch not so much option.

I think Cooney would have looked great on one of those teams 11-12 12-13 teams off the bench as a hustle guy for 20-25 minutes. Sound defense and hits 3-4 threes on 6-7 shots other times lights up for 5-9. Could have taken the pressure off Southerland and played solid defense up top as a senior.

Problem with doing that with this team is can we hold defensively uptop with Joseph or Howard if he were to. Triche and Gbinije are very solid defensively.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

True frosh in his first regular season game versus a fifth year senior who has career averages of 33% 3Pt FG% and 37Fg% overall.

No difference at all.

SSS

 

[hoopsupstate]

JB loves TC and it's probably justified because of TC's work ethic. TC has been a great representative of the University and I'm sure a great teammate.

That said, he has not really improved measurably at all, especially with his outside shooting. Maybe he's become a slightly better passer. To say "he's been our best shooter over the past three years and it hasn't been close" is 100% bull.

OK, Whose been a better shooter?

 

[dasher]

Yeah he's fine to be in the mix but jayzus - I'm not saying he sucks - he can shoot - but him handling the ball is embarrassing - Joseph looks vastly improved - get him more minutes

Give jb a call and let him know

 

[dasher]

I will say this, money on the line and I need a 3 and it's between Triche and T.C.. it's Cooney and it's not close. I will also let him have his sr year before I define his career.

 

[RoatanCuse]

Beadle touched on it. iirc, the summer after TC's best year he bulked up a lot. Muscled-up his arms, chest, etc. There were those saying this affected his "muscle memory" and this was either the entire cause of his shot being off...or at least in part. Anyone else with a better memory recall this?

 

[OrlandoCuse]

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but I think TC jumps too high on his 3pt shots during the game.

I've seen him take very small hops during warm ups from 3 and he rarely misses. He gets into a game and he tries to jump 40" vertical before he releases the ball. Totally different timing and form.

He's more of a set, spot shooter than this off screen jump shooter that he's been pretending to be for the last 3 years.

 

[Dave85]

It's amazing that all the shooting experts have already written Trevor off as only an average shooter after one game. He's been our best shooter over the past three years and it hasn't even been close. I'll say a JB and say we wouldn't have won 10 --- games the last two years without Trevor. People need to give this a rest. I'll take a team of Trevor's any day of the week.

The thing is JB did NOT say that. You can't compare TC to GMAC. You just can't.

That said, now that TC is a senior I think we know what we have with him. He plays good defense. He has lots of game experience which will help us. And occasionally he will have ND like performances that will win of 1 or 2 games this season. But if MR or TL step up and start shooting lights out then TC has to stop shooting when he's throwing up bricks. If he does that, then he will be rewarded with lots of fan loyalty and admiration.

 

[orangefan13]

JB said he had to take tough shots last year I would love to see a video of all trevors tough shots missing so we could edit them out of his total 3 point attempts and get his true 3 point shooting numbers.

He started slow last season from 3 also and might shoot another 2-5 percent worse this year without his shooting working routine tell will tell...I am going to get his numbers from his first 10 games from three last year now.

 

[orangefan13]

OK here goes Trevors first 8 games last year...
1-2
2-7
2-6
3-9
1-5
0-4
4-9
0-4

Ok let me stop there,
because he shot 50 percent in the next four with only one below at 4-9.
Give it some time.

 

[bozophobe]

His shot always seemed rushed to me, and when he gets on a bit of a hot streak, he seems to rush it even more, and seems to lose awareness of the overall game. Is it excitement or impatience?

 

[Eric15]

Right up front I have to say that I've been a huge fan of Trevor Cooney from the day he committed to play for Syracuse and instantly bought into the notion of a bigger, faster, GMAC was coming to town. I've also supported him when he has been criticized by many people some of whom frequent this forum.

The meme has been that last season Trevor was victimized by the fact he was essentially the only 3 point shooter we had and anyone who watched the games saw a kid who was run ragged trying to get open and to get a screen allowing for an open shot. He played a ton of minutes and was covered so closely is looked like someone was chasing him for having murdered someone in their family. He was bumped, pushed, shoved and by seasons end appeared to be exhausted. I suppose all of that is true and as the season wore on even when Trevor managed to get a shot off it looked like it was rushed, often off balance, and with little or no lift from tired legs.

So now it's a new year and a different team which has been advertised as having more shooters (five I've been told) and as such, Trevor would benefit from the additional shooters and opposing teams not being able to concentrate so much on Cooney would create more open looks for him. Now it's early... real early and we don't have a reliable sample size, but what my eyes tell me is that Trevor looks pretty much like the same player as last year when he puts up a shot. It almost seems like he's been rushed so much and that the window of opportunity for putting up a shot has been so minuscule that he has become habituated to rushing his shots.

The stats don't lie so I decided to take a look at Trevor's 3 pt shooting since he arrived here

In 2011 -2012 he did not compile any stats
In 2012- 2013 28 for 105 = .267
In 2013- 2014 90 for 340 = .375
In 2014- 2015 71 for 230 = .309
===============================
Totals 189 for 575 = .329

From 2012 to 2013 James Southerland and Brandon Triche were on the team and Southerland was ostensibly was Syracuse's biggest 3 point weapon/ specialist.

Southerland 2012 -13 84 for 211 = .398 and was .370 for Career
Triche 2012-13 49 for 170 = .288 and was .333 for Career

And just for good measure, GMAC's high water mark was .389 his sophomore season and for career he was .354

2013-14 was by far Cooney's best season for 3 pt. shooting and the cast he had around him was Christmas, Fair, Grant, and Ennis for starters and from the bench was Baye, Buss, BJ , Silent, and Roberson. The record shows that Ennis put up 30 for 85 or .353 so he was a legitimate threat and an option and Silent was 15 for 43 / .349. So it would appear that when Cooney has at least some other players around him who are capable of making a 3 he benefits from it.

GMAC'shigh water mark was his sophomore season and his percentage decreased in each of the following 2 seasons. He was also victimized by the fact he had become the teams primary offensive weapon and other teams were pretty much playing in the same pair of shorts he was during games.

Looking at the numbers Cooney is pretty much in the middle of the pack as far as efficiency as a 3 point shooter. That means... he is AVERAGE. At least during games he is average. This years team would certainly benefit if he were to be a bit better than average but my concern is that his point shot has been fundamentally changed as a result of the manner in which he has been forced to play and shoot in the past season. His shooting and shot against Lehigh did not look good and the defenders he will face as the season progresses will undoubtedly get much better. If this years team is going to be successful it is abundantly apparent that they will need to shoot the ball well from the perimeter and we will need Trevor to shoot more like he did as a sophomore than he did as a Jr. Trevor could actually contribute more if he were able to finish more effectively when he takes it to the basket and by drawing fouls when doing so. The numbers don't lie and I don't think we can rely on Trevor to significantly raise his 3 point shooting efficiency. I'd be surprised if he can finish around .360 for the season and a lot of it will depend on how well Gbinije, Malachi, and Kaleb Joseph do so as to provide Trevor with the time to get good looks and the time to get his shot off.

I know this makes people uncomfortable, but if you take away defense and character and just focus on their offensive game and production, I think Trevor and Deshaun Williams are extremely similar.

 

[orangefan13]

I don't get all the emphasis on Trevors three point shooting he still shot 30%
We played 31 games last year.
Trevor shot 71 for 230 last year from three for 30%
Had he made 86 of those 230 he would have shot 37% much more respectable right???
So lets give him that and average it out that is 1.5 ppg for 31 games.

Do we really think that Trevor Cooneys shooting at 30% instead of 37% and the extra 1.5 ppg cost us 8 losses? Really???
We had one game within a two point loss or overtime last year. One, at Nova in overtime.

And we had one game where we lost by 2-3 (mich), the rest were four or more. So even if you give him one extra three every other game instead for 37%, thats still only 1 other game it could of possibly won. There is also a chance he hit it the game before or after instead.

Sure lets blame one of the top three scorers on the team instead of not having a forth guy who was ready to create his own shot or knock down a open jumper, or the 12 turnovers per game. Cooney was also 4th in turnvoers on the team and first in minutes. He was also first in free throw percentage taking the 3rd most. He was also second in steals 3rd in assists, and still second in points. I know we would not have preferred Ron Patterson and BJ Johnson kaleb joseph and tyler roberson taking another combined 6-7 jumpers instead.

All that adds up to what JB said Cooney shot alot of tough shots last year because he had to.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but I think TC jumps too high on his 3pt shots during the game.

I've seen him take very small hops during warm ups from 3 and he rarely misses. He gets into a game and he tries to jump 40" vertical before he releases the ball. Totally different timing and form.

He's more of a set, spot shooter than this off screen jump shooter that he's been pretending to be for the last 3 years.

I agree 100%. He doesn't have a quick release so it seems like he rushes his shot and shoots unbalanced. This makes him look bad.

That being said, I've always been in the ballpark (and we have had threads on this) that shooting 33% from 3 is the same as shooting 50% from two but actually better because you have more opportunities to gather those rebounds. I forget what great rebounder said it, maybe Unseld or Rodman, but the key to rebounding is anticipating where the ball is going to go after it hits the rim and be in that spot. If our big guys could do this, since we know we are going to have more misses by shooting more threes, they can pick up more offensive rebounds which could lead to easy baskets down low. (Someone needs to make me the big mens coach!!!).

 

[orangefan13]

Triche and Cooney are good 2 guards they work hard on their bodies. Cooney is working hard on defense this year and it shows.

Neither meet my deepest hopes for a 2g. And 2g with sf is usually the two positions you expect flashy scoring and most of your points from, but we seem to do well with the right players around them.

Triche's Junior year he was in a position to be the fourth best scorer on the team, cooney had to be 2nd or 3rd there really is no comparison to jr triche and Cooney. Triche could get away with hiding offensively at SG his junior and senior seasons quite a bit you could almost miss when he took a shot here or there like a glue guy. I am not old enough to have watched it but I envision the triche of the 80's being in the same way. Cooney isn't going to sneak up on anybody with his shot. I don't think I have ever missed a shot of his. He just stands out so much he should consider painting his body orange for a game or two this year.
He could shoot 4-9 and we could say he is horrible on offense a few times this year it wouldn't suprise me.
Everyone wants to say Triche was so much better yeah we went to a final four that year but that team had what 9-10 losses and offense was the issue with four scorers on the floor. When MCW got better finishing in the lane as the year went on and CJ fair stepped up more we became much better.

As usual Cooney is in another position this year where he is forced to be the 3rd option in the lineup at the least unless Lydon/Roberson suprise or we go big minutes with Gbinije and Malachi together in the backline.
There is a bigger gap from 3rd to 4th option then there is from 2nd to 3rd at this level of basketball and it makes a huge difference in alot of our recent teams.

Triche was also a 5 star recruit at one time I imagine his frame had alot to do with that.

 

[iommi]

OK, Whose been a better shooter?

You said he's been the best shooter and it's not even close. That is ridiculous. If he shot the ball like Steph Curry, that would be accurate. Who's been a better shooter? I'd rather have Gbinije shooting a big shot. I'm not a stats geek but I imagine their fg percentage has been comparable at least. But if we need a big shot, give me G.

Also, the past three years we haven't been a good shooting team, so it's not like Trevor, our SHOOTING guard, who plays huge minutes, has had much competition in that department.

I'm very hopeful Malachi will be a great shooter and my guess is he winds up the year's better shooter and a much more efficient player too.

edit: this post has been edited (not by me). Full paragraphs have been deleted.

 

[Jack Hall]

I agree 100%. He doesn't have a quick release so it seems like he rushes his shot and shoots unbalanced. This makes him look bad.

That being said, I've always been in the ballpark (and we have had threads on this) that shooting 33% from 3 is the same as shooting 50% from two but actually better because you have more opportunities to gather those rebounds. I forget what great rebounder said it, maybe Unseld or Rodman, but the key to rebounding is anticipating where the ball is going to go after it hits the rim and be in that spot. If our big guys could do this, since we know we are going to have more misses by shooting more threes, they can pick up more offensive rebounds which could lead to easy baskets down low. (Someone needs to make me the big mens coach!!!).

I agree w you and Orlando. When you go back to his last great stretch, which was at the beginning of the 25-0 season, TC was sooo straight up and down in his jumper, ie he had great balance. Last season and so far this season his form just does not look ideal to me at all, ie hes off balance. To me hes way too focused on his elevation and not enough on squaring his base, balance and release. The end result is things look rushed and off balance. If he could somehow go back to his form of the beginning of that 25-0 run, we could make some noise in acc this yr. ie once we have 3 guys who are consistent 3 pt threats, and that may or may not ever happen, teams will have to over commit and will open up the driving lanes for the likes of G, TC, Mal, KJ and Lydon. If we take advantage of that, thats when we become a dangerous offensive team on a consistent basis. Obviously if its all just 3 pters we will be feast or famine and making the Dance will be a close call. Just mho, Go Orange!

 

[Jack Hall]

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but I think TC jumps too high on his 3pt shots during the game.

I've seen him take very small hops during warm ups from 3 and he rarely misses. He gets into a game and he tries to jump 40" vertical before he releases the ball. Totally different timing and form.

He's more of a set, spot shooter than this off screen jump shooter that he's been pretending to be for the last 3 years.

This! I agree, he needs to get back to more of a set/spot shooter than a curl screen shooter. Nothing wrong w him coming off screens but not if he is too rushed and trying to elevate a ridiculous amount, he needs space. Hopefully G, Mal etc can help give him the spacing to get nice clean looks, set/spot looks esp...

 

[RoatanCuse]

Lots of posts about TC's form, rushing the shot, height off the floor on his jumper, off balance, etc., etc. Anyone think that by now, in his final year, these problems should have been coached out of him? Add summers of practice time. Why doesn't it all click by now? Puzzled.

 

[AlaskaSU]

I don't get all the emphasis on Trevors three point shooting he still shot 30%
We played 31 games last year.
Trevor shot 71 for 230 last year from three for 30%
Had he made 86 of those 230 he would have shot 37% much more respectable right???
So lets give him that and average it out that is 1.5 ppg for 31 games.

Do we really think that Trevor Cooneys shooting at 30% instead of 37% and the extra 1.5 ppg cost us 8 losses? Really???
We had one game within a two point loss or overtime last year. One, at Nova in overtime.

And we had one game where we lost by 2-3 (mich), the rest were four or more. So even if you give him one extra three every other game instead for 37%, thats still only 1 other game it could of possibly won. There is also a chance he hit it the game before or after instead.

Sure lets blame one of the top three scorers on the team instead of not having a forth guy who was ready to create his own shot or knock down a open jumper, or the 12 turnovers per game. Cooney was also 4th in turnvoers on the team and first in minutes. He was also first in free throw percentage taking the 3rd most. He was also second in steals 3rd in assists, and still second in points. I know we would not have preferred Ron Patterson and BJ Johnson kaleb joseph and tyler roberson taking another combined 6-7 jumpers instead.

All that adds up to what JB said Cooney shot alot of tough shots last year because he had to.

30% from 3 is less than 1 point per shot. You will not win any games scoring less than one point per shot. If you can only shoot 30% from 3 it is best not to shoot, especially when considering the decreased probability of an offensive rebound.

 

[realorange]

I believe there was a recent story (interview with TC?) where it was said that his whole shooting setup/style was changed this summer.

 

[NateW]

Richardson: 4-9 from three "best shooter ever!"

Cooney: 3-9 from three "worst shooter ever!"

I respect your hoops knowledge immensely, but you know there is so much more to it than the stats.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I respect your hoops knowledge immensely, but you know there is so much more to it than the stats.

That was entirely facetious, wasn't it?