The truth about Trevor

[Zelda Zonk]

I don't get all the emphasis on Trevors three point shooting he still shot 30%
We played 31 games last year.
Trevor shot 71 for 230 last year from three for 30%
Had he made 86 of those 230 he would have shot 37% much more respectable right???
So lets give him that and average it out that is 1.5 ppg for 31 games.

Do we really think that Trevor Cooneys shooting at 30% instead of 37% and the extra 1.5 ppg cost us 8 losses? Really???
We had one game within a two point loss or overtime last year. One, at Nova in overtime.

Dude. Seriously? It really doesn't work like that. It's not a 3-pt shooting contest. Personal confidence. Team confidence. Momentum. The results of one misses: rebounds, breaks... Just a few factors involved in a missed shot. It's a game not played in a vacuum or on paper.

 

[NateW]

That was entirely facetious, wasn't it?

Umm.. Are you being facetious?

Not even remotely close for me...

You think stats is all that matters? Fantasy mania has run amuc.

 

[two3zone]

Dude. Seriously? It really doesn't work like that. It's not a 3-pt shooting contest. Personal confidence. Team confidence. Momentum. The results of one misses: rebounds, breaks... Just a few factors involved in a missed shot. It's a game not played in a vacuum or on paper.

It's not played on paper but you can build a hell of a team based on advanced stats alone. The eye test isn't always the best way.

 

[orangefan13]

Dude. Seriously? It really doesn't work like that. It's not a 3-pt shooting contest. Personal confidence. Team confidence. Momentum. The results of one misses: rebounds, breaks... Just a few factors involved in a missed shot. It's a game not played in a vacuum or on paper.

In this case it kind of was. JB said Trevor had to take alot of hard shots last year and he did. Gbinije was only taking shots he felt comfortable taking. Thats where confidence comes from, he just doesn't like to force alot that is plainly obvious early season this year.

If Trevor was the third option last year vs second or shot alittle less then we would have had even worse looks. If you can envision those looks it would be clearly obvious. How do others envision them. The Chemistry just wasn't there.

Heres how to envision them. Say he didn't play on last years team but Freshmen Joseph and Buss were our backcourt. Say BJ Johnson and Roberson had to take Cooneys 9 shots. That would have been a ugly ugly sight we would have lost another 10 games.

He couldn't ever be a fan favorite and be the 4th or 5th scoring option any games last year. He had to be one of our top 3 options the year before as our only 3 point shooter(as much as I love Fair and Ennis they just weren't much of a outside shooter). And most likely he has to be our third option on the floor when he is in again this year as it is doubtfull Gbinije and Malachi will get many minutes on the wings together. The plus is our 4th options have a chance to get alot better and maybe Cooney can take 2-3 less threes per game or get 2-5 looks that he feels more confident about per game.

Same thing different season take a upperclassmen envision his minutes cut and put in this case Kaleb in for him we do it every year. I want Joseph to challenge Cooney and earn 25 minutes to Cooneys 25, but I think hes going to have to be really good offensively for that to happen. Cooney looks real solid defensively up top in a team that I think will really need it vs being a luxuary early on.

We all should be cheering for Cooneys confidence early on not bashing him. He has a chance to shoot alot higher with less pressure on his looks. I will say he is more all over on his form right now as if he is shooting off the dribble he doesn't get the tightness in his release that Malachi, Joseph, and Gbinije are getting maybe that is why they are shooting better. But, we have played one game.

Its fun to converse and talk outside the box so shoot away.

 

[OttoMets]

Lots of posts about TC's form, rushing the shot, height off the floor on his jumper, off balance, etc., etc. Anyone think that by now, in his final year, these problems should have been coached out of him? Add summers of practice time. Why doesn't it all click by now? Puzzled.

Assuming he's healthy, he should never be more technically sound than he is in these first few games. Unfortunately, he's still drifting on a lot of his shots (but not the two in a row he hit against Florida Southern) and having trouble getting squared. This probably isn't a good sign.

 

[OttoMets]

Serious question; what did Triche do that was more impressive than Cooney? I think he's unanimously looked upon more favorably by the fanbase than Cooney and I'm just interested in the reason why. I suspect Cooney is disliked so much because of what he was billed as (a great shooter) coming in, whereas Triche didn't come in with lofty expectations.

The way I see it:

- similar size and athleticism
- similar 3-point shooting
- similar minutes
- similar defense

Triche was arguably more comfortable handling PG duties for short stretches but wasn't considerably proficient at dribbling, passing or finishing at the rim. So what gives?

I like Triche's defense, ball-handling, and finishing ability way better than what Cooney offers in those categories. Without looking, I also remember Triche as someone with a higher field goal percentage and think that he was more likely to rein it in without wasting a ton of possessions when he was having a bad night.

That said, I'd like to see Cooney's senior year before writing this comparison in stone. Haven't seen any improvement yet, but the season is young.

 

[FrancoPizza]

We have more options in the backcourt this year and there is no objective reason for Cooney to be logging 35+ minutes a game. He is getting the star treatment except he hasn't earned that designation via the eye test or on the stat sheet. It's depressing when JB's anointed stars are glorified chuckers. It's even more depressing when said stars also lack the instincts to finish in traffic when defenses cheat and beg them to drive. I'm not frustrated with Cooney, and I have no incentive to make fun of him, he is what he is. This is about the continued philosophy to make him a featured piece of the offense. It's as if JB is still waiting and expecting high school coonster to show up.

Our best odds this year would be to embrace Villanova's 4 guard offense. We're not going to do that without a commitment to get the best playmakers on the court at all times. That means more KJ and giving Howard some rope.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I like Triche's defense, ball-handling, and finishing ability way better than what Cooney offers in those categories. Without looking, I also remember Triche as someone with a higher field goal percentage and think that he was more likely to rein it in without wasting a ton of possessions when he was having a bad night.

That said, I'd like to see Cooney's senior year before writing this comparison in stone. Haven't seen any improvement yet, but the season is young.

Triche was great from 15 or 16 feet. He singlehandedly won a handful of games his senior year...Louisville... Seton Hall...Cinci.. come to mind off the top of my head. Not sure why he gets so much flack. Syracuse fans are notoriously critical of their 2g's.

 

[Cusefan0307]

We have more options in the backcourt this year and there is no objective reason for Cooney to be logging 35+ minutes a game. He is getting the star treatment except he hasn't earned that designation via the eye test or on the stat sheet. It's depressing when JB's anointed stars are glorified chuckers. It's even more depressing when said stars also lack the instincts to finish in traffic when defenses cheat and beg them to drive. I'm not frustrated with Cooney, and I have no incentive to make fun of him, he is what he is. This is about the continued philosophy to make him a featured piece of the offense. It's as if JB is still waiting and expecting high school coonster to show up.

Our best odds this year would be to embrace Villanova's 4 guard offense. We're not going to do that without a commitment to get the best playmakers on the court at all times. That means more KJ and giving Howard some rope.

We played one game. Were Cooney's turnovers worse than Mal's. Were his missed shots worse than G's? Serious question here.

 

[FrancoPizza]

We played one game. Were Cooney's turnovers worse than Mal's. Were his missed shots worse than G's? Serious question here.

On net, probably not, but I think everyone in the room knows Cooney is rarely going to come out of the game... at the expense of other potentially favorable backcourt combinations. I think that's the point I was trying to make. Besides, Mal plays a different position - they're not really competing for minutes. It was one game, but I didn't see anything from Cooney that suggests he's going to be an improved player this year.

 

[Brooky03]

I like Triche's defense, ball-handling, and finishing ability way better than what Cooney offers in those categories. Without looking, I also remember Triche as someone with a higher field goal percentage and think that he was more likely to rein it in without wasting a ton of possessions when he was having a bad night.

That said, I'd like to see Cooney's senior year before writing this comparison in stone. Haven't seen any improvement yet, but the season is young.

The comment about reigning it in on off nights is unfair. Triche always had offensive options around him, Cooney hasn't always had that, especially as the designated shooter. Their career eFG% is really close; I think Triche has a slight (.1 or .2) advantage.

Triche's defense wasn't anything to write home about, from what I recall. His lateral quickness was the same as Cooney's and the steals per game numbers aren't much different. I would classify both players as solid defenders in the zone, nothing more nothing less.

Triche did finish better at the rim than Cooney does. That's the only marked advantage I think he has. His ballhandling is the same; both players got the ball up the court against pressure with relative ease and aren't susceptible to being stripped. Neither could blow-by good defenders off the bounce.

I agree, the season is young.

 

[Dave85]

Right up front I have to say that I've been a huge fan of Trevor Cooney from the day he committed to play for Syracuse and instantly bought into the notion of a bigger, faster, GMAC was coming to town. I've also supported him when he has been criticized by many people some of whom frequent this forum.

I've come to praise Caesar too! Here's my prediction for this season. If Malachi is shooting 3-4, 3-6, 4-7, 5-8 from the 3-point line we will not be talking about or caring about TC going 1-3, 2-6, 3-9 as much!

I think TC is a great player on defense. But, I'm not the biggest fan of his offensive game. Rather than catch-n-shoot after he makes his herculean base-line runs maybe he should catch and dribble to the high post and then dish off ball to open player on the weak side. This year might be a better year for him to figure out and feed other players who are shooting better than him in a game when he's not shooting so well. It's a very hard thing for players to do that but we can hope. He's a smart kid. He may figure it out.

 

[realorange]

There is far more to take into consideration with a BB player than how well he can shoot.

 

[tbonezone]

he's second in the league in minutes played. yet has never made an all conference team.
he's 4th in the league in 3 point attempts yet only 40th in % made.
he's a good ft shooter who never goes to the line.
35 minutes a game is too many for trevor cooney.

 

[Ghost]

There is far more to take into consideration with a BB player than how well he can shoot.

Without saying "intangibles," what does Cooney grade out as above average for a 2G in a major conference? He doesn't really have a plus skill, other than maybe free throws. He's a great third guard - and largely started throughout his career due to circumstances with the roster I suppose, but there isn't much analysis to be had here.

In regard to the other topic going around, the thing with Triche was that a lot of people thought he had more in the reservoir. That he was perhaps too timid, or could be more aggressive/use his strength more. That's not the case with TC. He's a fine ball player, no complaints having him on the team, awesome kid, but not quite what you're hoping for as your SG logging a ton of minutes on a team hoping to win something/anything worthwhile.

 

[FrancoPizza]

There is far more to take into consideration with a BB player than how well he can shoot.

Ok then, other than free throws, what exactly does he do well?

 

[Dave85]

We all should be cheering for Cooneys confidence early on not bashing him. He has a chance to shoot alot higher with less pressure on his looks. I will say he is more all over on his form right now as if he is shooting off the dribble he doesn't get the tightness in his release that Malachi, Joseph, and Gbinije are getting maybe that is why they are shooting better. But, we have played one game. Its fun to converse and talk outside the box so shoot away.

I think this year TC has a much bigger chance of becoming irrelevant than last year. MR, TL, or even FH could come in and do really well on offense. As the year progresses and the freshmen become better on defense TC could see declining minutes. And also KJ will be vying for more PT. There are a lot of forces gunning for TC's PT this year!

 

[br801]

Ok then, other than free throws, what exactly does he do well?

He is a disruptive presence defensively, plays the top of the zone well and his years of experience are beneficial to his younger teammates. His offensive game is erratic but can carry the team at times. Despite what you may believe, many high D1 coaches would happily have him starting and playing big minutes.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

He is a disruptive presence defensively, plays the top of the zone well and his years of experience are beneficial to his younger teammates. His offensive game is erratic but can carry the team at times. Despite what you may believe, many high D1 coaches would happily have him starting and playing big minutes.

Plus Cooney is much more athletic than people give him credit for. We've all seen him take off and dunk. He has more talent than he uses so he is labeled a "3 pt shooter" and an unconsistent one at that.

 

[OttoMets]

Plus Cooney is much more athletic than people give him credit for. We've all seen him take off and dunk. He has more talent than he uses so he is labeled a "3 pt shooter" and an unconsistent one at that.

This is another concern many have about his development. Cooney's obviously athletic, but this athleticism has yet to manifest itself in his half-court offensive play. Cooney can take off from two feet and throw down a dunk in the open court, but he's had extreme difficulty finishing in traffic due to his inability to elevate. His athleticism was apparent from his first game and none of us could have predicted his struggles in harnessing that.

 

[Ghost]

Plus Cooney is much more athletic than people give him credit for. We've all seen him take off and dunk. He has more talent than he uses so he is labeled a "3 pt shooter" and an unconsistent one at that.

I hear the dunk/athleticism comment sometimes, but not sure what the pay off is. Most players can convert open layups... Guys like Scoop, or Edelin never dunked but could convert at the rim in traffic. Devo could dunk, but also finished well. TC can dunk. And?

That's significant, why?

Again, I hate that you have to qualify every TC comment, but you do here... He's a great Senior leader, emotional, can lead at times when his shots are falling, and runs his ass off on the court. His defense is decent, and he's a solid player, just possibly more akin to a Paulus. Who could actually shoot, but in spite of being a returning starter, saw his position challenged as a Senior. Now, maybe nobody is up to the task of playing over TC...but I do hope to see enough of the other guys to find out. At this point can't really judge TC, the rotation or much else though tbh .

 

[Melancer46]

My thoughts on Cooney have largely remained consistent:
- He's a streaky shooter that always leaves me expecting him to turn the corner but ending up disappointed.
- He's a good defender out of the zone. He's both disruptive and disciplined in his rotation, which is a pretty tricky balance to maintain. He's not a defensive god the way that MCW was for example, but he's a valuable piece of the zone.
- Even when his shot isn't falling, the attention that defenses give him takes attention away from his teammates.
- His constant movement is basically the only movement that exists in the Syracuse offense; without him, things tend to become constant isolations/pick and rolls, or in the case of last year, Christmas post-ups.

I think he deserves minutes even when his shot isn't falling for the reasons listed above (unless our younger guards begin to be able to do these things better than Cooney currently does).

 

[RF2044]

My thoughts on Cooney have largely remained consistent:
- He's a streaky shooter that always leaves me expecting him to turn the corner but ending up disappointed.
- He's a good defender out of the zone. He's both disruptive and disciplined in his rotation, which is a pretty tricky balance to maintain. He's not a defensive god the way that MCW was for example, but he's a valuable piece of the zone.
- Even when his shot isn't falling, the attention that defenses give him takes attention away from his teammates.
- His constant movement is basically the only movement that exists in the Syracuse offense; without him, things tend to become constant isolations/pick and rolls, or in the case of last year, Christmas post-ups.

I think he deserves minutes even when his shot isn't falling for the reasons listed above (unless our younger guards begin to be able to do these things better than Cooney currently does).

Agreed--solid take.

 

[Tony DeFranco]

We have had this same exact discussion for 3 years in a row - we had an epic collapse 2 years ago - we sucked last year - and everyone knows we are a coin flip away from the NIT this year - when ur 2G is an average shooter jacking insane attempts and has ZERO ability to penetrate that's kinda how things play out in guard oriented college basketball

One things I'd wager on is we are gonna be just fine next year

 

[Dave85]

We have had this same exact discussion for 3 years in a row - we had an epic collapse 2 years ago - we sucked last year - and everyone knows we are a coin flip away from the NIT this year - when ur 2G is an average shooter jacking insane attempts and has ZERO ability to penetrate that's kinda how things play out in guard oriented college basketball

One things I'd wager on is we are gonna be just fine next year

I think we have better guard options outside of TC this year. KJ V2.0 will be better also.