This just cant be true

[RandomGuy]

I wasn't trying to debate style of football. With the same number of wins(let's say 6 plus) I just think the casual fan would enjoy our current style more, and might be more willing to go to the game.

As a meathead? I was conceding that this style may actually help with butts in the seats..;-)

 

[PAcuse]

We live in southeast PA.

Everyone has priorities and budget, so I’m not trying to pursuade you, but we have to drive 4 hrs each way also.

We decided that those trips would just be overnighters so we could relax/hang out in Syracuse all night as a family after the game and then take the trip home early AM.

The short story is that I didn’t grow up with very many family traditions/fond memories and I decided (w/SUskibumwife approval) was to make Syracuse football one of those traditions we can share together as a family. I hope and think we will get back to good football soon, but it’s about more than that for us.

We are in sounthcentralish PA so I don't really mind the drive all 81. It was more of a hey we will have a 10 month old, 8 year old, and 9 year old when the season starts so we are taking a year off and testing the waters
by going to spring game and fan-fest we will be season ticket holders again and plan on going to away games that are within the 4-5 our radius as well.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I prefer a slow plodding run game, with great defense.

Why do you hate me?

 

[SUskibum]

We are in sounthcentralish PA so I don't really mind the drive all 81. It was more of a hey we will have a 10 month old, 8 year old, and 9 year old when the season starts so we are taking a year off and testing the waters
by going to spring game and fan-fest we will be season ticket holders again and plan on going to away games that are within the 4-5 our radius as well.

My apologies, I seriously wasn’t trying to stir the pot.

I was just providing another point of view since we both have infants. Then you implied it was easier for me because you assumed I was closer, and I was just clarifiying that we are closer to you than ‘Cuse.

I get the fact you guys want to hit the pause button with your newly expanded family, and make the bet you can still get decent tickets a year or two down the road when you get better accustomed to the zone defense played at the homestead.

Literally the only reason I responded was to provide the perspective that I don’t want to make the bet that good tickets will be sitting there for us in a few years. I would rather buy good seats now, use them as much as I can and give away games that we can’t use. Instead of finding out decent tickets are no longer available when we would be more able to use them down the road.

Two reasonable people (and die hard fans) can absolutely come to different conclusions on this and frankly I am jealous that you have already done the seasons tickets deal with your family!

 

[PAcuse]

My apologies, I seriously wasn’t trying to stir the pot.

I was just providing another point of view since we both have infants. Then you implied it was easier for me because you assumed I was closer, and I was just clarifiying that we are closer to you than ‘Cuse.

I get the fact you guys want to hit the pause button with your newly expanded family, and make the bet you can still get decent tickets a year or two down the road when you get better accustomed to the zone defense played at the homestead.

Literally the only reason I responded was to provide the perspective that I don’t want to make the bet that good tickets will be sitting there for us in a few years. I would rather buy good seats now, use them as much as I can and give away games that we can’t use. Instead of finding out decent tickets are no longer available when we would be more able to use them down the road.

Two reasonable people (and die hard fans) can absolutely come to different conclusions on this and frankly I am jealous that you have already done the seasons tickets deal with your family!

My pot wasn't stirred, just glad to have a discussion about attending games with the family virus another uniform thread lol. Honestly we bought our season tickets to ensure we got seats we liked for when SU took off again. It was a hard choice for sure giving them up and 99.9% certain we will have them again next yeat. It was enjoyable taking to you about sides of the choice.

 

[SWC75]

I get tired of refuting this one

It's not false. The counter, courtesy of Millhouse, is that we haven't been getting the defensive or special teams scores Shafer was getting. I would add that the lack of a running game makes it hard to sustain and finish drives. The thing is, it's been two years and we still have those deficits. And you would think our vast increase in passing numbers would move the needle more than it has.

 

[sufandu]

We've had double digit win seasons 6 times in our entire history. 4 of those came within a 6 year period. Since the last time we won 10 games (2001. Also the last time we were ranked), we are averaging 4.5 wins per year. I'm not saying it's impossible and of course I dream of seasons like that, but in the current landscape Cuse winning 10 or more games is highly unlikely regardless of who the coach is. I'd be happy just not being the laughing stock of college football which we've been pretty much my entire life.

Exactly. Read my whole post. IF we were to win 10... nobody would care about style. If we play exciting football, the bar required to increase interest is lowered.

 

[TheCusian]

It's not false. The counter, courtesy of Millhouse, is that we haven't been getting the defensive or special teams scores Shafer was getting. I would add that the lack of a running game makes it hard to sustain and finish drives. The thing is, it's been two years and we still have those deficits. And you would think our vast increase in passing numbers would move the needle more than it has.

It’s true-ish. That’s the problem. No doubt that our actual scoring numbers are up by a smidge if you remove defensive scores and OT scores. And it’s true that we’ve not seen the increase in scoring match the increase in other output.

But it’s a true outlier, nationally. When you move the ball like we do and get an extra possession or two - our points per game should be much higher.

I’ve been beating the effeciency drum for a season and a half. The running game is huge.

I for sure don’t see all of the other top 40 to top 10 numbers and then see our scoring and come to the conclusion Tipp does. Opposite. Scoring is the lagging indicator, just like wins. IMO.

 

[RandomGuy]

2009: DM/Paulus 21.2 vs 27.9 PPG
2010: DM/Nassib 22.2 vs 19.3 PPG
2011: DM/Nassib 24.2 vs 28.5 PPG
2012: DM/Nassib 30.0 vs 24.8 PPG
2013: Shafer/Hunt 22.7 vs 25.4 PPG
2014: Shafer/Committee 17.1 vs 24.3 PPG
2015: Shafer/Dungey 27.2 vs 31.0 PPG
2016: Babers/Dungey 25.7 vs 38.6 PPG
2017: Babers/Dungey 27.4 vs 32.2 PPG

Interesting. Here are each coaches cumulative averages:
Offense / Defense
DM 24.2 / 25.125
SHF 22.3 / 26.9
DB 26.55 / 35.4

No coach has scored more than they surrendered. Babers has given us the best offense, and worst defense. Fix the defense, and... Some may argue needing the right players for his scheme. Others, more 3 and outs lead to opponents scores. Others a by product of tempo, without consistency.

For giggles, I compiled PPG with Dungey, and without.
With Dungey(2017):
Offense 29.11 PPG
Defense 24.88 PPG

No Dungey(2017):
Offense: 22.3 PPG
Defense: 54 PPG

With Dungey(2016):
Offense: 26.62 PPG
Defense: 31.62 PPG

No Dungey(2016)
Offense: 23.75 PPG
Defense: 48.75 PPG


The thing that stood out to me was 2017, with Dungey. Defense gave up less than Shafer or Marrone. Woot. Yeah, there are other variables that must be considered. It IS the first sample(only 75%) where we scored more than we gave up.

With Dungey out, the defense was abysmal. Yes, there were injuries there. The drop just seems too significant. I think the focus on the run game, is to avoid this kind of inconsistency going forward, regardless of QB. There is a 75% complete sample, that shows the system can work - even with a sub par run attack. The QB play can lead to a much heavier load on the defense. For me, I'd like to see improved run game, and an improved/less burdened Defense.

 

[DoctorBombay]

I've stated it before, but I don't believe it is that simple for us.

We've gone too long with putrid football.

We need sizzle and steak. The football's got to be fun, too.

Winning provides all the sizzle & steak a program needs. Personally, i don’t care if we win every game 6-3 if it gets us in the CFP, & I’d wager most fans feel the exact same way.
The Sweet 16 in b-ball was just as sweet playing “ugly”, than if we’d had a pretty 1st round loss scoring 100 pts per game.
Bill Parcells and fellow alum Al Davis said it best: “You are, what your record says you are”, and, “Just win, baby”!!

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Winning provides all the sizzle & steak a program needs.

I buy that if we're in a cycle of winning ugly.

That's not where we are though.

It has to be fun if we want more people to care. If we win ugly we're still going to see threads like this wondering where the fans are.

 

[DoctorBombay]

I buy that if we're in a cycle of winning ugly.

That's not where we are though.

It has to be fun if we want more people to care. If we win ugly we're still going to see threads like this wondering where the fans are.

Fair enough. But i want wins, style points be damned. When the Giants were winning Super Bowls w/ great defense and a “boring” running game, no one cared...and the fans came. Relevant football is the real issue, IMO. If we get Clemson at the Dome w/ an ACC championship on the line, even if we’re playing “3 yards & a cloud of dust”, i guarantee the place would be full. JMHO

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Fair enough. But i want wins, style points be damned. When the Giants were winning Super Bowls w/ great defense and a “boring” running game, no one cared...and the fans came. Relevant football is the real issue, IMO. If we get Clemson at the Dome w/ an ACC championship on the line, even if we’re playing “3 yards & a cloud of dust”, i guarantee the place would be full. JMHO

Those Giants teams didn't have to compete for attention the way teams do now.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[SWC75]

Interesting. Here are each coaches cumulative averages:
Offense / Defense
DM 24.2 / 25.125
SHF 22.3 / 26.9
DB 26.55 / 35.4

No coach has scored more than they surrendered. Babers has given us the best offense, and worst defense. Fix the defense, and... Some may argue needing the right players for his scheme. Others, more 3 and outs lead to opponents scores. Others a by product of tempo, without consistency.

For giggles, I compiled PPG with Dungey, and without.
With Dungey(2017):
Offense 29.11 PPG
Defense 24.88 PPG

No Dungey(2017):
Offense: 22.3 PPG
Defense: 54 PPG

With Dungey(2016):
Offense: 26.62 PPG
Defense: 31.62 PPG

No Dungey(2016)
Offense: 23.75 PPG
Defense: 48.75 PPG


The thing that stood out to me was 2017, with Dungey. Defense gave up less than Shafer or Marrone. Woot. Yeah, there are other variables that must be considered. It IS the first sample(only 75%) where we scored more than we gave up.

With Dungey out, the defense was abysmal. Yes, there were injuries there. The drop just seems too significant. I think the focus on the run game, is to avoid this kind of inconsistency going forward, regardless of QB. There is a 75% complete sample, that shows the system can work - even with a sub par run attack. The QB play can lead to a much heavier load on the defense. For me, I'd like to see improved run game, and an improved/less burdened Defense.

I think Dungey being out and the defense performing poorly are in the literal sense, co-incidental. They happen at the same time but one does not cause the other. Both have a similar cause: lack of depth. Dungey gets hurt and isn't adequately replaced and the defense just wears out.

 

[tipphill]

Those Giants teams didn't have to compete for attention the way teams do now.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

nobodys coming to see on a casual basis a consistant loser,who plays fun football.

 

[sufandu]

I buy that if we're in a cycle of winning ugly.

That's not where we are though.

It has to be fun if we want more people to care. If we win ugly we're still going to see threads like this wondering where the fans are.

nobodys coming to see on a casual basis a consistant loser,who plays fun football.

Why are you guys arguing like it's one or the other? It's not.

A boring 7 or 8 win team will not move the needle beyond us diehards. A run and gun team that struggles to get to 6 won't either. We don't need to be the highest scoring team in the country, but putting up big numbers on our way to winning seasons while going toe to toe with bigtime teams will raise interest.

Tipphill, we will have a running game. The lack of one up to this point has not been by choice. DB wants to be able to rip teams up the middle as much as he wants to scorch them over the top. We just haven't had the make up to do it. That is changing. Look at the young RB's that have been recruited versus who DB inherited along with the progress from the offensive line last year. Given the team make up when DB arrived, it was easier and quicker to change the passing game than the run game. Defense is changing too. The first half of last season there was dramatic progress compared to any point in 2016. The improved depth and maturation of D lineman and DB's should allow improvement to carryover into the latter parts of the season this year.

The last two years I have been one of the people that tried to temper expectations when others were beating the 40 ppg drum. I just didn't think DB could turn us around in the ACC as quickly as he could with his previous teams in lesser conferences. Right or wrong, my expectations are raised for this year. A jump to 35 ppg with with a small decrease in defensive PPG on our way to 6 wins seems reasonable.

 

[SmilinBob]

I don't know about wins but what I do see is an OL that is going to be good, a veteran QB who is good and RB's that will help keep the ball in the offenses hands. The biggest reason there are so many yards and not as many points is speed and elusiveness. Once there are players that when they touch the ball they can bring it to the end zone from anywhere on the filed is when this Dome will rock so hard the foundation will crack and they'll be forced to build a new one.

If the offense can keep the ball longer we WILL see a major difference on D. Now, if SU has some quick score offensive guys then the depth on D is going to be huge and needed in a very good way. As SWC said, the depth or lack of is killing this defense and if this team stays moderately to very healthy, SU and we fans will have a solid season.

Babers is selling something unique here...an exciting offense...a solid D and a Dome. Ironically...this is what helped Boeheim build his empire and it will also be the thing that will help Babers build his because he has embraced this. Babers and staff have to be a good coaches, Teachers, recruiters and deligators to succeed on the Hill and yes, a better one than the other guys across the sideline.

This team needs both O and D to be good as well as special teams. An O that an come from behind, a D that steps up when the O struggles and a special teams that makes something happen when both O and D are in a fistfight. This is why I like this O...there are capable of scoring, I like that feeling.

As for the chicken and egg argument O or D, I don't care which is better on game day as long as SU's scores more points than the other guys..... if it's a 10 to 3 win or a 45-42 win. I feel this system is capable of both.

 

[RandomGuy]

I think Dungey being out and the defense performing poorly are in the literal sense, co-incidental. They happen at the same time but one does not cause the other. Both have a similar cause: lack of depth. Dungey gets hurt and isn't adequately replaced and the defense just wears out.

I partially agree. For me, the statistical differences are just too great. 2016 we gave up 17 ppg more without Dungey. 2017, 30ppg more. Both DM and Shafer managed def consistency, while struggling with a similar lack of depth. I can't blame it all on Shafer's recruiting...

I think HCDB's system is just more reliant on talent/depth than the previous. If the run game is closer to where it should be? It will be very telling. We will still lose guys on def. Will there be a similar crash? I think defensive efficiency is just magnified more by offensive efficiency, in a tempo offensive.

 

[TheCusian]

Interesting. Here are each coaches cumulative averages:
Offense / Defense
DM 24.2 / 25.125
SHF 22.3 / 26.9
DB 26.55 / 35.4

No coach has scored more than they surrendered. Babers has given us the best offense, and worst defense. Fix the defense, and... Some may argue needing the right players for his scheme. Others, more 3 and outs lead to opponents scores. Others a by product of tempo, without consistency.

For giggles, I compiled PPG with Dungey, and without.
With Dungey(2017):
Offense 29.11 PPG
Defense 24.88 PPG

No Dungey(2017):
Offense: 22.3 PPG
Defense: 54 PPG

With Dungey(2016):
Offense: 26.62 PPG
Defense: 31.62 PPG

No Dungey(2016)
Offense: 23.75 PPG
Defense: 48.75 PPG


The thing that stood out to me was 2017, with Dungey. Defense gave up less than Shafer or Marrone. Woot. Yeah, there are other variables that must be considered. It IS the first sample(only 75%) where we scored more than we gave up.

With Dungey out, the defense was abysmal. Yes, there were injuries there. The drop just seems too significant. I think the focus on the run game, is to avoid this kind of inconsistency going forward, regardless of QB. There is a 75% complete sample, that shows the system can work - even with a sub par run attack. The QB play can lead to a much heavier load on the defense. For me, I'd like to see improved run game, and an improved/less burdened Defense.

Good research here.

- It’s important to remember that Dungey was our best QB and RB.

- I think the defense lost a lot when Martin went out. A rangey safety means a lot for our D. He went out the week before ED did.

- This was the 3rd season in a row that we lost ED. When we go tempo and get less than effecient QB play, the D gets buried. They know that. So when we lost ED this season, I think that the D just turtled.

- Shafer DB’s that we depended on for that 5 game losing streak have also left the program. That says a lot.

- you’re right about a credible run game smoothing out some the ineffecencies in the O. Will help with scoring too I think

 

[TheCusian]

I think Dungey being out and the defense performing poorly are in the literal sense, co-incidental. They happen at the same time but one does not cause the other. Both have a similar cause: lack of depth. Dungey gets hurt and isn't adequately replaced and the defense just wears out.

No way. At the very least their are huge psychological implications.

We know inefficient offense poses a burden on a defense. That’s as old as football itself.
We know when Dungey goes out our offense is worse. We don’t need stats to prove that our eyes do a fine job.

There is a correlation - we’ve lived it for 3 years.

 

[TheCusian]

nobodys coming to see on a casual basis a consistant loser,who plays fun football.

Lol. No one is coming to see a consistent loser who plays neanderball

 

[DoctorBombay]

Lol. No one is coming to see a consistent loser who plays neanderball

No one is coming to see a consistent loser...period.

Why are you guys arguing like it's one or the other? It's not.

A boring 7 or 8 win team will not move the needle beyond us diehards. A run and gun team that struggles to get to 6 won't either. We don't need to be the highest scoring team in the country, but putting up big numbers on our way to winning seasons while going toe to toe with bigtime teams will raise interest.

I can agree w/ this and that’s already started happening. We at least have a vision and hope of what HCDB is trying to do here, but after a string of late losses last 2yrs, that hope has faded.
Meaningful games are what we all want & need, whether we’re grinding out a run game or flying up & down the field. I think we’ll get to that place w/ Dino...& then the fans will come!

 

[elimunelson]

The casual fan probably doesn’t care what style of football is being played. They will only pay attention to stars and results. Dungey could be a star this year

Only example that I lived through was 84 flutie. He was a star who propelled a mediocre program into the spotlight. Casual people startsd
To care. I can’t tell you what type of offense that Cowboy Jack ran. I just knew Doug would win however he could.

Syracuse needs a star and results. The system may make both happen but casual fans won’t csre if we throw 80% of time if we go 4-8 again and there is zero big time star power

 

[DoctorBombay]

The casual fan probably doesn’t care what style of football is being played. They will only pay attention to stars and results. Dungey could be a star this year

Only example that I lived through was 84 flutie. He was a star who propelled a mediocre program into the spotlight. Casual people startsd
To care. I can’t tell you what type of offense that Cowboy Jack ran. I just knew Doug would win however he could.

Syracuse needs a star and results. The system may make both happen but casual fans won’t csre if we throw 80% of time if we go 4-8 again and there is zero big time star power

Agreed. When Joe Morris arrived my frosh year, the team hadn’t done squat in years. But Joe’s running, coupled w/ Hurley at qb & Art Monk moved to WR, bought genuine buzz to otherwise mediocre seasons.

 

[nzm136]

73-121. That's our record since 2001 and that's all you need to know. With a few exceptions we haven't played winning football in 18 years and an argument can be made that we haven't played fun football since 1998. We have a generation of sports fans that can't remember what it's like for Syracuse football to be fun. Even when we start to win, there will likely be a little lag between the winning and the return of the casual fans.

THIS.

We need wins. Consistent winning will fix everything.