This just cant be true

[nzm136]

More than a few USF/UCF/Memphis recruits would not be admitted to SU.

Think back 15 years. TWO publically bemoaned the fact that SU football was at a competitive disadvantage in the Big East because of the difference in academics vis-a-vis LVille, Cincinnati, USF.

Don’t forget about WVU.

Those schools can do things within the rules that would be cheating pretty much anywhere else.

 

[NailstheCusefan12]

That’s funny, I bought seasons tickets for the first time in my life precisely BECAUSE we just had a baby (10 months old now).

I wanted to get good seats while they were available (per OP they are indeed available) so I can lock them up for decades of enjoyment to come.

We will not be going to every game (hope to catch 3-4 a year) while she is little but at least as our family grows our seats are secured.

If you need someone to watch your little one during the game I’m sure my girlfriend would rather do that than actually watch the game.

 

[tipphill]

Why are you guys arguing like it's one or the other? It's not.

A boring 7 or 8 win team will not move the needle beyond us diehards. A run and gun team that struggles to get to 6 won't either. We don't need to be the highest scoring team in the country, but putting up big numbers on our way to winning seasons while going toe to toe with bigtime teams will raise interest.

Tipphill, we will have a running game. The lack of one up to this point has not been by choice. DB wants to be able to rip teams up the middle as much as he wants to scorch them over the top. We just haven't had the make up to do it. That is changing. Look at the young RB's that have been recruited versus who DB inherited along with the progress from the offensive line last year. Given the team make up when DB arrived, it was easier and quicker to change the passing game than the run game. Defense is changing too. The first half of last season there was dramatic progress compared to any point in 2016. The improved depth and maturation of D lineman and DB's should allow improvement to carryover into the latter parts of the season this year.

The last two years I have been one of the people that tried to temper expectations when others were beating the 40 ppg drum. I just didn't think DB could turn us around in the ACC as quickly as he could with his previous teams in lesser conferences. Right or wrong, my expectations are raised for this year. A jump to 35 ppg with with a small decrease in defensive PPG on our way to 6 wins seems reasonable.

6 QUALITY wins.

 

[blizz]

I think that fans are cooking the books to distort reality

Never realized our fanbase had a disproportionate share of shady accountants... things that make you go hmmm...

 

[bevosu]

Check Duke's attendance numbers after they began to come to life. Not much difference.

Of course they don't have the football history that we have (had).

 

[TheCusian]

I think that he also ignored the number of possessions, which is 100% cooking the numbers.

I haven’t checked since Dino’s first season, but SS’ offense was more efficient, meaning it was better at scoring points when it got the ball (i.e. 90% of what an offense is supposed to do). THAT is the problem w/ Dino’s scheme.

HOWEVER, Dino has brought in some great talent (at least on paper), and he has been consistent w/ his philosophy. So, I do think that it will improve.

AND the defense made MASSIVE strides last year, and was actually quite good in my eyes. Talent/depth showed in the last 2 games. But I’m not concerned about our direction on that’s front.

Net-net, I think that fans are cooking the books to distort reality, but I also think that we have the coach to take us to where we need to go.

This is the gap in your logic. With Shafer, there was no room for error. The efficiency had to be great to even get close. We lost more close games under Shafer because we had declining talent levels, bad HC decisions, too much trust in the D and not enough in the O, and no room to be inefficient. And with slow, methodical drives we’d not have enough time. We’d be down 10 in the 4th and most here would say with confidence that it was over.

Under Babers - it takes more to be truly out of it. Does tempo allow the opposing team more chances too? Sure. But in games with a lot of plays and possession you have more cushion. Down 10 with 4 min left, I’m thinking we’ll do it. That’s why you play this way with the talent pool historically available to us.

The best way to think of it is that it’s like boxing. Jabbing and dancing against a superior fighter gives you more chances to outlast a tired opponent, more chances means more moments where you can get the opponent where you can take advantage, and if you find yourself down on the scorecard you have time and energy to take advantage (you train exclusively for this kind of fight). Dino’s system provides this. Shafer was slow and methodical- you get 3-4 chances for a knockout and you miss? Lights out. Better opponents could see it coming and punched harder.

 

[sufandu]

6 QUALITY wins.

6 quality wins will bring people like us hope. We understand what that means regarding progress against the kind of schedule we have to play. It'll take more than that to gain interest from the casual fan. Most of them won't see the 6 wins, they'll see the 6 losses.

 

[tipphill]

6 quality wins will bring people like us hope. We understand what that means regarding progress against the kind of schedule we have to play. It'll take more than that to gain interest from the casual fan. Most of them won't see the 6 wins, they'll see the 6 losses.

very true--glass half empty syracuse syndrome re most things

 

[SWC75]

very true--glass half empty syracuse syndrome re most things

If we make it to a bowl game the season will be a bit more handsome. If we could win one, it would be gorgeous after four losing seasons.

 

[Newhouser]

What's everyone think we cap at fan wise with a number of successful winning seasons? Where 7 or 8 is the expected and achieved win total?

 

[nzm136]

Never realized our fanbase had a disproportionate share of shady accountants... things that make you go hmmm...

20 years of justifying bad football will do wonders for that statistic.

 

[nzm136]

This is the gap in your logic. With Shafer, there was no room for error. The efficiency had to be great to even get close. We lost more close games under Shafer because we had declining talent levels, bad HC decisions, too much trust in the D and not enough in the O, and no room to be inefficient. And with slow, methodical drives we’d not have enough time. We’d be down 10 in the 4th and most here would say with confidence that it was over.

Under Babers - it takes more to be truly out of it. Does tempo allow the opposing team more chances too? Sure. But in games with a lot of plays and possession you have more cushion. Down 10 with 4 min left, I’m thinking we’ll do it. That’s why you play this way with the talent pool historically available to us.

The best way to think of it is that it’s like boxing. Jabbing and dancing against a superior fighter gives you more chances to outlast a tired opponent, more chances means more moments where you can get the opponent where you can take advantage, and if you find yourself down on the scorecard you have time and energy to take advantage (you train exclusively for this kind of fight). Dino’s system provides this. Shafer was slow and methodical- you get 3-4 chances for a knockout and you miss? Lights out. Better opponents could see it coming and punched harder.

What? Tempo has nothing to do with needing to be more or less efficient.

Yes, being down (insert number here) is less of a big deal w/ a higher tempo team, but they’re also more likely to be down by more if they’re down. Tempo is a lever. It leads to bigger margins of victory/defeat.

You’re still not grasping the implications of the other team getting more chances to score.

If you score more net points (offensive/special teams points netted against points scored by the other team’s defense) per possession than the other team, then, barring and incredible mathematical outlier, you will win, regardless of tempo. The opposite is also true. That’s why you can’t just look at raw numbers.

And, FWIW, the less talented team wants fewer chances for everyone so that random chance (Which is 50-50) decides the game.

 

[FasterCuse]

What's everyone think we cap at fan wise with a number of successful winning seasons? Where 7 or 8 is the expected and achieved win total?

I think consistent 7-8 win seasons get's us in the higher 30 range consistently (37k-39k), and then sell outs for major games. I'm talking actual butts in seats and not announced attendance. I think if we could get to being consistently ranked in the 15-25 range we bump that up to somewhere in the lower 40's.

 

[DoctorBombay]

we don't have time for 5 years when the rebuild is rebuilding 3 other rebuilds.

This is a “2 steps forward, 3 steps back” type of mentality, IMO.
If we’re serious about a true rebuild, and i believe HCDB and SU definitely are this time, then we have to sell out to his philosophy.
The Dome carpet w/ exciting, fast-paced football, capped by wins & bowl games is the ultimate goal. But building up unrealistic expectations 2 years in only leads to resentment from the fans, and more stagnation.
Let’s give the man time and a genuine chance to succeed, before going down the rabbit hole of another rebuild, with another coach. 5 years minimum ought to be the standard. After that...all bets are off.

 

[Ozcuse]

What's everyone think we cap at fan wise with a number of successful winning seasons? Where 7 or 8 is the expected and achieved win total?

35-42k if we are a perennial low bowl team in a refreshed dome. We are already getting a decent crowd for games like Clemson and FSU. We need to get crowds for WF, NCST, BC, and Pitt. That happens when people think we can/should win those games.

 

[sufandu]

I think consistent 7-8 win seasons get's us in the higher 30 range consistently (37k-39k), and then sell outs for major games. I'm talking actual butts in seats and not announced attendance. I think if we could get to being consistently ranked in the 15-25 range we bump that up to somewhere in the lower 40's.

The ranking part is big for drawing casual fans.

 

[sufandu]

35-42k if we are a perennial low bowl team in a refreshed dome. We are already getting a decent crowd for games like Clemson and FSU. We need to get crowds for WF, NCST, BC, and Pitt. That happens when people think we can/should win those games.

I think it has to be more than just perennial bowl. Six wins will get us that. To average in the 40's I think we need teams that are expected to win 8 along with the up and down years that inevitably add/subtract a win or two.

 

[RandomGuy]

What? Tempo has nothing to do with needing to be more or less efficient.

Yes, being down (insert number here) is less of a big deal w/ a higher tempo team, but they’re also more likely to be down by more if they’re down. Tempo is a lever. It leads to bigger margins of victory/defeat.

You’re still not grasping the implications of the other team getting more chances to score.

If you score more net points (offensive/special teams points netted against points scored by the other team’s defense) per possession than the other team, then, barring and incredible mathematical outlier, you will win, regardless of tempo. The opposite is also true. That’s why you can’t just look at raw numbers.

And, FWIW, the less talented team wants fewer chances for everyone so that random chance (Which is 50-50) decides the game.

Efficiency is equally important with tempo. Why Babers was preaching, "consistently good, not occasionally great."

In regards to the less talented team wanting fewer chances.. Pace may allow a less talented team, to be successful, because of confusion and fatigue. More "talented" at tempo. What's been missing, is efficiency. Make that true, and more chances can work in the Tempo teams favor.

 

[TheCusian]

What? Tempo has nothing to do with needing to be more or less efficient.

Yes, being down (insert number here) is less of a big deal w/ a higher tempo team, but they’re also more likely to be down by more if they’re down. Tempo is a lever. It leads to bigger margins of victory/defeat.

You’re still not grasping the implications of the other team getting more chances to score.

If you score more net points (offensive/special teams points netted against points scored by the other team’s defense) per possession than the other team, then, barring and incredible mathematical outlier, you will win, regardless of tempo. The opposite is also true. That’s why you can’t just look at raw numbers.

And, FWIW, the less talented team wants fewer chances for everyone so that random chance (Which is 50-50) decides the game.

I get tempo gives both teams more possessions. I do. I’m asking you to think beyond that simple reading of Dino’s system and philosophy.

If you can play at tempo efficiently and score more than a team that is either less efficient, slow, or can’t cash in with points at the end of a drive - that’s a huge advantage.

The goal of going fast isn’t to go fast. Dino isn’t saying “hey, let’s both have more possessions!” He’s making a bet that his offense can play more efficiently over all of the possessions than your offense can. It works best with a lead, but he knows even down his o is potent enough that you must keep piling up yards and have meaningful productive drives all game.

The system isn’t *just* tempo.

The less talented team wants to dictate the terms of the battle. If you train for tempo, get a billion reps so that you’re pretty confident you can drive the ball on anyone, if you are playing a tired defense, etc... if you think all that - you don’t need to rely on getting lucky.

 

[sufandu]

I get tempo gives both teams more possessions. I do. I’m asking you to think beyond that simple reading of Dino’s system and philosophy.

If you can play at tempo efficiently and score more than a team that is either less efficient, slow, or can’t cash in with points at the end of a drive - that’s a huge advantage.

The goal of going fast isn’t to go fast. Dino isn’t saying “hey, let’s both have more possessions!” He’s making a bet that his offense can play more efficiently over all of the possessions than your offense can. It works best with a lead, but he knows even down his o is potent enough that you must keep piling up yards and have meaningful productive drives all game.

The system isn’t *just* tempo.

The less talented team wants to dictate the terms of the battle. If you train for tempo, get a billion reps so that you’re pretty confident you can drive the ball on anyone, if you are playing a tired defense, etc... if you think all that - you don’t need to rely on getting lucky.

And to build on that, there's the chaos factor. When we find a matchup that we can take advantage of, we don't want the defense to substitute and adjust. Or if a team runs a complex defense it may force them to stay more basic. When a team isn't used to the tempo, it feels chaotic and disorganized to them, makjng it more likely they blow an assignment and give us a big play. One or two opportunities like that can lead to scores that tip the game to our favor. Improved efficiency will increase those opportunities.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Clemson and LSU crowds show there is no big problem with our fanbase. Win 9/10 games or be ranked for an extended period of time and attendance will increase big time i.e. 10k more season tickets and 10k more casual fans for big games.

Our schedule and being stuck in the tough half of the ACC are killers. If we were on the other side of the conference it wouldn't be too hard to win 9 games every couple years and technically have a shot to win the ACC into November. We really need the ACC to go to a 9 game schedule.

 

[SUskibum]

And to build on that, there's the chaos factor. When we find a matchup that we can take advantage of, we don't want the defense to substitute and adjust. Or if a team runs a complex defense it may force them to stay more basic. When a team isn't used to the tempo, it feels chaotic and disorganized to them, makjng it more likely they blow an assignment and give us a big play. One or two opportunities like that can lead to scores that tip the game to our favor. Improved efficiency will increase those opportunities.

This is the part I think gets overlooked the most.

Making a defense play on its heals, react instead of attack, simplify scheme out of nessessity, not to mention being flat out gassed for the last 20 or so snaps of the game.

Oh, plus it’s fun to watch!

 

[DoctorBombay]

Clemson and LSU crowds show there is no big problem with our fanbase. Win 9/10 games or be ranked for an extended period of time and attendance will increase big time i.e. 10k more season tickets and 10k more casual fans for big games.

Our schedule and being stuck in the tough half of the ACC are killers. If we were on the other side of the conference it wouldn't be too hard to win 9 games every couple years and technically have a shot to win the ACC into November. We really need the ACC to go to a 9 game schedule.

This.
If we’re 5-0 and a Clemson, FSU, Miami, or LSU comes to town...the fans will show up.
Win, and attendance increases. The rest is just rhetoric.

 

[RandomGuy]

You’re still not grasping the implications of the other team getting more chances to score.
.

Initially, I completely agreed with this statement. Basic, factual, statistically provable football logic.

At Bowling Green, Babers won 10 games with 27 minutes of possession. 8 the year before with 26 minutes. Even with the defense implosion at the end of last year-to your point- there were still 69 teams that allowed their opponent more snaps. It's a very interesting discussion because traditional facts, stats, and logic aren't necessarily neatly applied. (TOP, last year was 30:01..)

Remarkably, the defense gave up less points since before 2009, in the first 9 games..24

 

[SWC75]

And to build on that, there's the chaos factor. When we find a matchup that we can take advantage of, we don't want the defense to substitute and adjust. Or if a team runs a complex defense it may force them to stay more basic. When a team isn't used to the tempo, it feels chaotic and disorganized to them, makjng it more likely they blow an assignment and give us a big play. One or two opportunities like that can lead to scores that tip the game to our favor. Improved efficiency will increase those opportunities.

The big thing I remember about the Virginia Tech and Clemson upsets is that the other team was out of gas at the end of the game and we weren't. That was the product of tempo, which was the product of efficiency. We kept the ball and made it into the game we wanted it to be.