Time for a complete cleanse

[Goin' Deep]

I would accept a hire from within candidate if significant changes would be made.
Changing defenses, getting more athletic players so that CUSE plays with more speed
and intensity. And play 9 guys 6-8 minutes at least every game. It's no mystery why we're folding
in the 2nd half lately...losing the 2nd half by 15 pts or more half the time.

You gotta believe JB is going to want to "appoint" his successor...does the AD
unconditionally allow it?

gonna be some "walking on eggshells"...

 

[Cusefan0307]

It doesn't happen often. Duke and UNC are doing it now and IMO both will fail. But they are bigger programs and are still at the top, so it will be easy to recover. UConn, Indiana, UNC, Oklahoma State all did it and it failed. Kansas, Illinois, Arizona, Cincy, Temple, Kentucky, Louisville all didn't do it and it worked out. Michigan State and Gonzaga did it and it worked. Oklahoma, UNLV, Mizzou didn't and it failed. Michigan, Louisville didn't do it and it is TBD but off to a good start. Wisconsin did it and it is TBD but not looking good. Maryland didn't do it but where do we put this? Failed because he was fired? Or worked out because the record was fine? Can you call getting fired a success? Can you call getting fired in year 11 a failure?

Inside Job
2-4-3

Outside
7-3-2 plus Turgeon who avg'd 10.5-7.9 in conference and 22-11 overall.

The outside hires have done better.

EDIT

And how can I forget Georgetown to the list of failures? Which brings that to 2-5 with 3 TBD. Also can we really count Few as they aren't a P5 school? They did not have the mean$ to go out and get a decent HC when he was hired. So really in the last 40 seasons Izzo is the only one who worked out from a major program.

EDIT II

And we can also add St Johns to that list of failures (2-6 now). Shouldn't we learn from the failures of our rivals (GTown, UConn, St Johns)?

Another post where someone exaggerates. You’re cherry picking at best here. I agree we should get the best candidate possible, but you aren’t looking at every scenario possible and your conveniently cherry picking data.

Let's get the facts on each job you mentioned.

Arizona's first outside hire after Lute Olson got fired(Kevin O'Neill)...19-15. They are on their third coach since Olson retired.

Louisville has about the same record as us since Mack got there. He's made the tournament once and lost in the first round. How can you say this is a good hire? Our fans would not be happy with what he has done.

Kentucky? Where are you going with this... They hired Billy Gillespie after Tubby and he got fired. Everyone thought he was a great hire at the time. Our fans would not be happy with what he did.

Greg Gard also has been a fine hire for Wisconsin. He won the Big 10 two years ago and they have been in the tournament every year, but one since he took over. For Wisconsin he has done a great job.

And Turgeon? Please. This board would not be happy with him either. He lost early in the tournament every year. Despite what this board says we will not be happy with just regular season success. I can bump posts from 10 years ago to prove that.

And be ready to hire an alum. I know the fans aren't going to like it, but everything points to that happening unless Wildhack surprises me. Again, not saying I agree with it, but I am saying what I think is going to happen.

And finally posters on this board need to start posting facts and stop exaggerating stuff. It makes us look stupid.

 

[DilemaCuse]

It doesn't happen often. Duke and UNC are doing it now and IMO both will fail. But they are bigger programs and are still at the top, so it will be easy to recover. UConn, Indiana, UNC, Oklahoma State all did it and it failed. Kansas, Illinois, Arizona, Cincy, Temple, Kentucky, Louisville all didn't do it and it worked out. Michigan State and Gonzaga did it and it worked. Oklahoma, UNLV, Mizzou didn't and it failed. Michigan, Louisville didn't do it and it is TBD but off to a good start. Wisconsin did it and it is TBD but not looking good. Maryland didn't do it but where do we put this? Failed because he was fired? Or worked out because the record was fine? Can you call getting fired a success? Can you call getting fired in year 11 a failure?

Inside Job
2-4-3

Outside
7-3-2 plus Turgeon who avg'd 10.5-7.9 in conference and 22-11 overall.

The outside hires have done better.

EDIT

And how can I forget Georgetown to the list of failures? Which brings that to 2-5 with 3 TBD. Also can we really count Few as they aren't a P5 school? They did not have the mean$ to go out and get a decent HC when he was hired. So really in the last 40 seasons Izzo is the only one who worked out from a major program.

EDIT II

And we can also add St Johns to that list of failures (2-6 now). Shouldn't we learn from the failures of our rivals (GTown, UConn, St Johns)?

Good research HRE

Good debate, I just cant get behind an in house hire, unless the team/program significantly improves from this point forward. When things are rolling you keep it in house, see Duke and ND football this year.

When your head coach is underperforming, you go outside and swing big, see USC and LSU football during this coaching carousel. Yeah I know football and Basketball arent the same and circumstances are different, but if you think you're a big time program (which historically SU is) then you think BIG, and make a big hire. Going internal in the current state things, I just can't see it being successful, Gmac or Autry are not the recruiters Hop was. They might have a chance if they are not married to the zone, (top players dont want to sit in a zone), and evaluate and recruit a different type of player.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Another post where someone exaggerates. You’re cherry picking at best here. I agree we should get the best candidate possible, but you aren’t looking at every scenario possible and your conveniently cherry picking data.

Let's get the facts on each job you mentioned.

Arizona's first outside hire after Lute Olson got fired(Kevin O'Neill)...19-15. They are on their third coach since Olson retired.

Louisville has about the same record as us since Mack got there. He's made the tournament once and lost in the first round. How can you say this is a good hire? Our fans would not be happy with what he has done.

Kentucky? Where are you going with this... They hired Billy Gillespie after Tubby and he got fired. Everyone thought he was a great hire at the time. Our fans would not be happy with what he did.

Greg Gard also has been a fine hire for Wisconsin. He won the Big 10 two years ago and they have been in the tournament every year, but one since he took over. For Wisconsin he has done a great job.

And Turgeon? Please. This board would not be happy with him either. He lost early in the tournament every year. Despite what this board says we will not be happy with just regular season success. I can bump posts from 10 years ago to prove that.

And be ready to hire an alum. I know the fans aren't going to like it, but everything points to that happening unless Wildhack surprises me. Again, not saying I agree with it, but I am saying what I think is going to happen.

And finally posters on this board need to start posting facts and stop exaggerating stuff. It makes us look stupid.

ONeill was named interim HC he wasn't given a contract as HC.

Louisville I was counting Crum to Pitino. Since Pitino was fired there was no chance at hiring from within.

Kentucky I am counting Pitino to Tubby. Maybe you are too young to remember? When there is continuation hiring opportunities it doesn't happen when the HC is fired that is just silly.

Wisconsin is trending down fast. He has already had a .500 and a below .500 record in the B1G. But it is too early to tell which is why the TBD.

Turgeon IMO is a Push. He was there over 10 seasons. Regular season he was successful. NCAAT he failed. How can you call his regular seasons for a 10 year span a failure? I didn't count him as a success.

NAME ME WHAT WAS CHERRY PICKED OR EXAGGERATED. YOU HAVE BACKED UP YOUR OPINION WITH NOTHING! WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS?

 

[Cusefan0307]

ONeill was named interim HC he wasn't given a contract as HC.

Louisville I was counting Crum to Pitino. Since Pitino was fired there was no chance at hiring from within.

Kentucky I am counting Pitino to Tubby. Maybe you are too young to remember? When there is continuation hiring opportunities it doesn't happen when the HC is fired that is just silly.

Wisconsin is trending down fast. He has already had a .500 and a below .500 record in the B1G. But it is too early to tell which is why the TBD.

Turgeon IMO is a Push. He was there over 10 seasons. Regular season he was successful. NCAAT he failed. How can you call his regular seasons for a 10 year span a failure? I didn't count him as a success.

NAME ME WHAT WAS CHERRY PICKED OR EXAGGERATED. YOU HAVE BAKCED UP YOUR OPINION WITH NOTHING!

You exaggerated. Deal with it.

This is what happened at Arizona:

Later the same month, on December 18, Arizona athletic director Jim Livengood announced O'Neill as the designated successor to Olson. Olson said at the time he planned to return for the 2008–09 season; Livengood stated that O'Neill would succeed Olson upon his retirement.[8] In March 2008, Olson confirmed that he would return as head coach for the 2008–2009 season, and said that he planned to coach until his contract ended in 2011.[9] With the announcement of Olson's return, the O'Neill succession plan was thrown into question amidst media rumors of disagreement between Olson and O'Neill.[10]

Only a month later, Lute Olson announced that O'Neill would not be retained on the University of Arizona staff.[11] After spending the spring and summer preparing for the upcoming season, Olson abruptly and unexpectedly announced his permanent retirement from the Arizona basketball program in October 2008; his personal physician cited health concerns as the reason.[12]

Gard went 14-6 in the Big 10 in 19 and 20.

He went 12-6 in 2017.

They are 8-2 this year 1-1 in conference.

Last year they were .500... He is 58-40 overall in Big 10 play.

And we would NOT be happy with Turgeon. Just stop.

Again hire the best candidate possible, but post facts. This is why the board has gone to sht.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

You exaggerated. Deal with it.

This is what happened at Arizona:

Later the same month, on December 18, Arizona athletic director Jim Livengood announced O'Neill as the designated successor to Olson. Olson said at the time he planned to return for the 2008–09 season; Livengood stated that O'Neill would succeed Olson upon his retirement.[8] In March 2008, Olson confirmed that he would return as head coach for the 2008–2009 season, and said that he planned to coach until his contract ended in 2011.[9] With the announcement of Olson's return, the O'Neill succession plan was thrown into question amidst media rumors of disagreement between Olson and O'Neill.[10]

Only a month later, Lute Olson announced that O'Neill would not be retained on the University of Arizona staff.[11] After spending the spring and summer preparing for the upcoming season, Olson abruptly and unexpectedly announced his permanent retirement from the Arizona basketball program in October 2008; his personal physician cited health concerns as the reason.[12]

Gard went 14-6 in the Big 10 in 19 and 20.

He went 12-6 in 2017.

They are 8-2 this year 1-1 in conference.

Last year they were .500... He is 58-40 overall in Big 10 play.

And we would NOT be happy with Turgeon. Just stop.

Again hire the best candidate possible, but post facts. This is why the board has gone to sht.

How is what I posted not a fact? You still haven't countered a thing I said. Posters making up stuff like you is what makes the board worse.

Never said we would be happy with Turgeon. You are making things up.

ONeill came in as a bench coach. Olsen got sick so ONeill took over. Olsen was going to retire so they named Oneill HCIW. But then Olsen changed his mind and ONeill left. What you posted backs up as FACT what I said. How can you say he was HC when Olsen was still there? Exaggerate much?

If you want to count ONeill then it is an internal hire and we are at 2-7 with internal hires, which is even worse.

You are quite dense.

 

[Cusefan0307]

How is what I posted not a fact? You still haven't countered a thing I said. Posters making up stuff like you is what makes the board worse.

Never said we would be happy with Turgeon. You are making things up.

ONeill came in as a bench coach. Olsen got sick so ONeill took over. Olsen was going to retire so they named Oneill HCIW. But then Olsen changed his mind and ONeill left. What you posted backs up as FACT what I said. How can you say he was HC when Olsen was still there? Exaggerate much?

If you want to count ONeill then it is an internal hire and we are at 2-7 with internal hires, which is even worse.

You are quite dense.

No. I didn't make anything up. Everything I posted was factual and I will continue to be factual. O'Neill was the next coach and was hired by the AD to be the next coach while first being on the Arizona staff until Olson pulled a power move because he didn't want him and that is exactly what I posted.

Most coaches are external hires. Ton's of external hires fail. I made my point by the posts above. I want the best coach possible, but be prepared for it to be an alum. I'd argue that there may be 20% schools that are happy with their coaching situation right now. It's not a lot. Most coaches fail. Both external and internal.

 

[RealMcNeil]

Luke Murray. Young guy, and an excellent talent evaluator / recruiter. Would take some time to get the Hurley stench off, but stops at Xavier, Louisville and UConn aren’t anything to scoff at.

Bonus: periodic Bill Murray appearances.

 

[kirbivore]

I would accept a hire from within candidate if significant changes would be made.
Changing defenses, getting more athletic players so that CUSE plays with more speed
and intensity. And play 9 guys 6-8 minutes at least every game. It's no mystery why we're folding
in the 2nd half lately...losing the 2nd half by 15 pts or more half the time.

You gotta believe JB is going to want to "appoint" his successor...does the AD
unconditionally allow it?

gonna be some "walking on eggshells"...

When JB suggests the next coach JW should tell him we'll take it under advisement

 

[LockedOnSyr]

We discussed a lot of this stuff on the pod today. Scared about 5-10 years from now.

 

[TexanMark]

I'm really appreciative of Jim and his legacy at Cuse...but like Bobby Bowden, Frank Beamer, etc...the sunset isn't pretty. I hope Jim moves on when Buddy leaves (22 or 23) and I would love to see him stay involved in college basketball as an analyst.

Going forward, the zone can be a complimentary part of our defense but as the game has evolved we aren't getting elite athletes anymore to keep it relevant. We need to switch to more pressure m2m with the next coach...be it outside or inside the program.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

We discussed a lot of this stuff on the pod today. Scared about 5-10 years from now.

Nothing to be scared about. CBBall is all about the HC. You can turn a program around in a year. If we are willing to pay we will get a good one eventually. Oats IMO is too late, we missed the boat.

 

[TexanMark]

Nothing to be scared about. CBBall is all about the HC. You can turn a program around in a year. If we are willing to pay we will get a good one eventually. Oats IMO is too late, we missed the boat.

Agreed Bama has play money laying around to keep Oats. They don't necessarily like hoops in Bama but they still want to be great at it...for bragging rights. Kinda like all the FB fans who showed up to watch UT's F4 in 2003...they were mostly idiots about the game but wanted to be at the event.

 

[DilemaCuse]

We discussed a lot of this stuff on the pod today. Scared about 5-10 years from now.

Scared??? this program is a sleeping giant that is gradually being run into the ground of mediocrity.

I am scared at how bad they could be next year when they lose a ton of experience in Boheim boys and Swider unless they hit portal lottery

 

[FrancoPizza]

I'm really appreciative of Jim and his legacy at Cuse...but like Bobby Bowden, Frank Beamer, etc...the sunset isn't pretty. I hope Jim moves on when Buddy leaves (22 or 23) and I would love to see him stay involved in college basketball as an analyst.

Going forward, the zone can be a complimentary part of our defense but as the game has evolved we aren't getting elite athletes anymore to keep it relevant. We need to switch to more pressure m2m with the next coach...be it outside or inside the program.

Even if we had elite athletes I think the zone is schematically flawed in the Steph Curry era of cbb.

 

[CuseN]

Yeah that will solve everything, promote from within. We will magically have the horses lining up to come here.

If we went to playing a mix of man and zone, we wouldn’t have missed on a few high 5 stars that had us in their top 3 the last few years. Even with only playing zone, we are still bringing in a top 15 recruiting class next year. I think a younger coach that can relate better to the current players and a focus on staying true to Syracuse history by playing some zone, but playing man defense will fix the program. Who wouldn’t want to play in the Dome in front of 30K fans? The Dome is the greatest recruiting tool we have

 

[CousCuse]

Syracuse can win the ACC this year, or finish in the top 2 or 3 for sure. I don't know what people here who are so definitive at this point in the season would think or say, not that they have anything meaningful to say anyhoo.

 

[Deleted member 8116]

I personally want to see GMAC get a shot to run things.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I personally want to see GMAC get a shot to run things.

I'm curious what Red did to piss everybody off.

It seems the two most popular choices are
1. GMac
2. Hire from outside.

Autry was coaching in 2006 while GMac was still a floor slapper.

 

[PauliePeppas]

I'm curious what Red did to piss everybody off.

It seems the two most popular choices are
1. GMac
2. Hire from outside.

Autry was coaching in 2006 while GMac was still a floor slapper.

Reds the best choice imo

 

[Deleted member 8116]

I'm curious what Red did to piss everybody off.

It seems the two most popular choices are
1. GMac
2. Hire from outside.

Autry was coaching in 2006 while GMac was still a floor slapper.

Nothing against Red, but GMAC just seems more of the fresher choice. I would still take Red over a outside hire.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Nothing against Red, but GMAC just seems more of the fresher choice. I would still take Red over a outside hire.

At this point we should just hire Devo.

 

[kcsu]

SU has been a great program Since Roy was coach.
Personally i dont think it makes any sense to throw out 60 years of continuous success unless you dont have qualified assistant coaches.
Red and Mac are both qualified. Give them a chance. Two no more than 3 years.
If it doesn't go well than go outside but dont flush 60 years of continuity.
That would be almost as crazy as retiring 44

 

[RF2044]

SU has been a great program Since Roy was coach.
Personally i dont think it makes any sense to throw out 60 years of continuous success unless you dont have qualified assistant coaches.
Red and Mac are both qualified. Give them a chance. Two no more than 3 years.
If it doesn't go well than go outside but dont flush 60 years of continuity.
That would be almost as crazy as retiring 44

What would be crazy is promoting an AC who has zero offers to be a head coach in 30+ years of being an assistant coach. Even more stark: combined, Red and GMac have ZERO head coaching offers.

That's one indication of them not being qualified.

The ONLY reason to hire from within is in the interest of continuity -- to sustain things that are going well. Anyone who wants continuity with the status quo needs their head examined. Not attempting to reverse this multi-year trend of decline would be what's crazy.

What this program needs is new blood and an influx of new ideas, not a perpetuation of mediocrity, limiting ourselves to a talent pool of under qualified candidates who are no trick ponies in the sense that they would likely continue the same systems, only with neither of them being in JB's league in terms of X's and O's.

I love those two for all of their contributions to the program, as both players and head coaches. But if they are the best we can do, we're in trouble. Remember when many posters were proclaiming how excited they were about Hop being the next man up? Good thing we avoided that lead balloon by having him go outside the cozy amniotic sack of Syracuse basketball to test his mettle.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

What would be crazy is promoting an AC who has zero offers to be a head coach in 30+ years of being an assistant coach. Even more stark: combined, Red and GMac have ZERO head coaching offers.

That's one indication of them not being qualified.

The ONLY reason to hire from within is in the interest of continuity -- to sustain things that are going well. Anyone who wants continuity with the status quo needs their head examined. Not attempting to reverse this multi-year trend of decline would be what's crazy.

What this program needs is new blood and an influx of new ideas, not a perpetuation of mediocrity, limiting ourselves to a talent pool of under qualified candidates who are no trick ponies in the sense that they would likely continue the same systems, only with neither of them being in JB's league in terms of X's and O's.

I love those two for all of their contributions to the program, as both players and head coaches. But if they are the best we can do, we're in trouble. Remember when many posters were proclaiming how excited they were about Hop being the next man up? Good thing we avoided that lead balloon by having him go outside the cozy amniotic sack of Syracuse basketball to test his mettle.

I agree with what you said. But I have no faith in our AD. When the time comes it really doesn't matter Red or GMac. What matters is the assistants. One of them HAS to go. They aren't pulling their weight. Then the winner should hire Hop for recruiting and the next Rob Murphy (or even the man himself). We had that great run when we had Hop and Weaver/Murph bringing kids in. What we have now is a joke.