were better with howard in

[Cusefan0307]

If GBinje has 6 of his 7 turnovers with Howard on the court that counts against Howard. If Lydon or GBinje rain 3's when Cooney is on the court that counts against Howard. It's sort of a dumb metric.

In those same 100 possessions Cooney is shooting .323% (the 2nd worst) while jacking up 19.9 attempts (the 2nd most).

Cooney is also behind Howard in rebounds, assists, steels, blocks and remember defense. He only edges Howard in turnovers.

No it's not. That's not the formula. You are just anti-Cooney, but in reality we are better with him on the court than Howard.

 

[Ghost]

I really don't think there are a lot of holes. Go back and look at MCW's stats from 11-12. He was light years better than Howard.
People don't like to believe stats when it doesn't back up their opinion.

to take ur argument to its illogical conclusion, you'd have to concede JB is an utter moron for not playing MCW's 40 minutes 's per game in conference play. 67% on twos, 70% on threes, over 5 rebounds pregame, over 6 assists, and a 3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. MCW was utilized much differently than Howard.
He played garbage minutes. Howard ain't. And by NO MEANS do I think Howard is anywhere near MCW, just not sure ur stats are a fair comparison. .
Howard shot the ball well in exhibition games, does that mean we can conclude he can shoot?

 

[rrlbees]

If GBinje has 6 of his 7 turnovers with Howard on the court that counts against Howard. If Lydon or GBinje rain 3's when Cooney is on the court that counts against Howard. It's sort of a dumb metric. In those same 100 possessions Cooney is shooting .323% (the 2nd worst) while jacking up 19.9 attempts (the 2nd most). Cooney is also behind Howard in rebounds, assists, steels, blocks and remember defense. He only edges Howard in turnovers.

It's dumb offensively but also defensively. On both sides there are a zillion things it doesn't and can't take into account.

 

[jr4750]

Of course Cooney is also known to work the hardest off the court. So maybe he's overtraining off the court, too.

Agreed. My initial post wasn't a Cooney bash at all. With the way he runs around out there, and the way other teams try to beat him up, I totally understand how he starts to lose explosiveness around this time. Just wish we planned for that a bit more. Ah well, it's too late now.

 

[Ghost]

It's dumb offensively but also defensively. On both sides there are a zillion things it doesn't and can't take into account.

I wish all the advanced metrics meant more to me, I just can't fathom how accurate they are. I guess the idea is that over time you get an accurate average based on volume? Seems like there must be so many variables though that can't be accounted for. Oh well, I'm sure some people have a better take on those than me.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Come on all his FG's are lay ups. He's made like 1 shot beyond 3 feet.

A very astute observation.

 

[CorduroyG]

It's been noted a couple times even on the broadcast that we packed it in even more. You didn't see any guard extend to far. We got what we wanted and it worked like it usually does.

Hey bees has cooney made a mistake in his career at su?? He could give up an open 3 cuz he was picking his nose and youd say "thats part of the zone, coach thinks that nose picking distracts the opponent" lol

 

[General20]

No way is Syracuse better with Howard in the game. Not even close.

One thing I have not seen anybody mention is that a lot of Howard's success is predicated by the fact that Boeheim is picking and choosing ideal situations to play him in.

Because he accounts for so few minutes and so little production, teams are not putting a lot of time and effort into scouting him, and making adjustments to counteract his strengths.

When you don't score much, and your best ability is passing to other people, you can be game planned against fairly easily. If Howard played say 30 minutes a game, teams would adjust to what he does and shut him down completely, making him a very ineffective player.

Even when Cooney is not shooting well he is providing spacing, and there is no way to gameplan against that. Its simply an advantage Syracuse gets by playing Cooney.

I think Howard can be a good player for us down the line, but right now he's not very good. In an ideal world he's not playing at all this year. Hopefully he will be ready to give us 20 good minutes a game next year, and be a productive starter as a junior and senior. I think that is very possible.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Even when Cooney is not shooting well he is providing spacing, and there is no way to gameplan against that.

Opponents must not be scouting very well. Cooney's shooting % is actually worse when he's open.

 

[rrlbees]

Hey bees has cooney made a mistake in his career at su?? He could give up an open 3 cuz he was picking his nose and youd say "thats part of the zone, coach thinks that nose picking distracts the opponent" lol

Mature response.

My post was in response to a post talking about the defense "we" played.

And yes Cooney makes mistakes and when he does, JB lets him know it.

 

[rrlbees]

Opponents must not be scouting very well. Cooney's shooting % is actually worse when he's open.

1. You have no way of knowing that.
2. That wasn't the Generals point.

 

[PhatOrange]

It's dumb offensively but also defensively. On both sides there are a zillion things it doesn't and can't take into account.

oh I agree 100%

 

[Cusefannotindc]

Come on all his FG's are lay ups. He's made like 1 shot beyond 3 feet.

The actual answer appears to be 3.

 

[General20]

Opponents must not be scouting very well. Cooney's shooting % is actually worse when he's open.

Why do our fans love taking cheap shots at Cooney? I assume this is a cheap shot and you don't actually think that teams should stop guarding him on purpose.

 

[realorange]

Why do our fans love taking cheap shots at Cooney? I assume this is a cheap shot and you don't actually think that teams should stop guarding him on purpose.

The fans taking cheap shots at Cooney were taking them at Triche and now their trying to decide who it will be next year.
If you're a fan, you want to boost the confidence of all your players whether they are playing well or not. My experience has been that many times people who like to try and make others less are not very happy with themselves.

 

[Dave85]

I hope Howard does well next year. That's his time and chance.

Every minute he plays this season is success nectar for next season.

 

[Dave85]

Why do our fans love taking cheap shots at Cooney? I assume this is a cheap shot and you don't actually think that teams should stop guarding him on purpose.

He plays really good defense and helps bring the ball up the court. His hot and cold shooting can be frustrating but Malachi and Lydon do not have perfect success every game either. I think at this point Cooney should be beyond criticism. We should just be thankful for the successes we've had this year. This team is not a top 10 team but they did not hurt the Orange brand or our recruiting one iota. If we get into the NCAA tournament Cooney deserves some credit at that point. I'm hopeful.

 

[Dave85]

The fans taking cheap shots at Cooney were taking them at Triche and now their trying to decide who it will be next year.
If you're a fan, you want to boost the confidence of all your players whether they are playing well or not. My experience has been that many times people who like to try and make others less are not very happy with themselves.

You only criticize and hate in other people what you do not like about your own character.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Why do our fans love taking cheap shots at Cooney? I assume this is a cheap shot and you don't actually think that teams should stop guarding him on purpose.

Shh. Florida state assistants might be reading this board for clues. Let's hope they guard him real tight.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

No way is Syracuse better with Howard in the game. Not even close.

One thing I have not seen anybody mention is that a lot of Howard's success is predicated by the fact that Boeheim is picking and choosing ideal situations to play him in.

Because he accounts for so few minutes and so little production, teams are not putting a lot of time and effort into scouting him, and making adjustments to counteract his strengths.

When you don't score much, and your best ability is passing to other people, you can be game planned against fairly easily. If Howard played say 30 minutes a game, teams would adjust to what he does and shut him down completely, making him a very ineffective player.

Even when Cooney is not shooting well he is providing spacing, and there is no way to gameplan against that. Its simply an advantage Syracuse gets by playing Cooney.

I think Howard can be a good player for us down the line, but right now he's not very good. In an ideal world he's not playing at all this year. Hopefully he will be ready to give us 20 good minutes a game next year, and be a productive starter as a junior and senior. I think that is very possible.

I think this was much more relevant, especially the part about spacing, when Cooney was the only one capable of hitting a three. With Mal, G, and Lydon on the floor, we have three capable shooters so we have more than enough spacing.

I've never seen you so down on one player like this. Very interesting.

 

[Ghost]

No way is Syracuse better with Howard in the game. Not even close.

One thing I have not seen anybody mention is that a lot of Howard's success is predicated by the fact that Boeheim is picking and choosing ideal situations to play him in.

Because he accounts for so few minutes and so little production, teams are not putting a lot of time and effort into scouting him, and making adjustments to counteract his strengths.

When you don't score much, and your best ability is passing to other people, you can be game planned against fairly easily. If Howard played say 30 minutes a game, teams would adjust to what he does and shut him down completely, making him a very ineffective player.

Even when Cooney is not shooting well he is providing spacing, and there is no way to gameplan against that. Its simply an advantage Syracuse gets by playing Cooney.

I think Howard can be a good player for us down the line, but right now he's not very good. In an ideal world he's not playing at all this year. Hopefully he will be ready to give us 20 good minutes a game next year, and be a productive starter as a junior and senior. I think that is very possible.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with some (ALL) of this. Also, going to go on some tangents as always. Although I am concerned that nobody is saying you're bashing Howard in this one!!! (Just joking)

I'm a tad lost on the second paragraph. He puts him in during the first half, typically under normal game circumstances. He's put him in when we were down a couple recently, so it's not predicated upon us building a lead. Plus, we rarely build cushions anyway. Do you just mean by playing him primarily in the first half that is by itself an "ideal situation?" If so, fair point. Otherwise, just wondering what you mean by "ideal."

I would take some exception to terming it, "so little production." At least from my perspective. I mean, if you take assists/points/rebounds in conference only, where Howard tends to play non-garbage minutes as well:

7 assists per 40 minutes, versus 2 for TC with a better turnover to assist ratio. Frosh PG vs. a 5th Year Senior, one plays SG one plays PG, but still, a pretty steep contrast.

About two more rebounds per 40 minutes for Howard in conference. Howard averages more steals per 40 minutes as well.

He also shoots higher from 2 point range (37% vs 30%), worse from three point range (34% vs. 13%). We're not so desperately in need of three point shooting this year though either, as may have been the case in years past. Cooney takes home the huge win in points per game, 13.5 to 5.5.

There are plenty of pass-first, low output point guards. If JB was to up his minutes to 2o or 30 per game, I would imagine to a certain extent he would also be removing the red light - he would at least have the same leash as Joseph had last season. That would allow for more penetration, more mid-range stuff, etc. I'm not sure drawing HUGE conclusions about his offensive aptitude when he has a red-light is logical, but we can disagree on that.

In M2M, TC is simply an easy mark - throw a chaser on him, and if he's at all adept on defense, you win the war. If the choice was to double the post by hedging off the the screen, or guard Cooney, that would be helpful, but nobody is that concerned with us throwing the ball into the post so they chase.

You can overplay him all day and he's not going to burn you with any consistency. His passing is blah, his handle is good but he's slow with the ball, his mid-range game is weak, finishing terrible, etc...Obviously, having TC closely guarded opens up lanes as well, but we're really starting to stretch it to come up with reasons to justify his big minutes when this is all we got.

With our roster the way it is, having a penetrator would be quite beneficial. Howard is by no means the BIG answer either at this point. He's clearly a Frosh PG with limitations. However, having someone who can make plays off the bounce, drive to the rim, etc...does force the defense to react/adjust. You get defenders to hedge, and the movement opens up other passing lanes. Does Cooney being closely guarded/his constant movement help? Yup. Does having a legit PG on the floor? Yup. People discount that pretty readily though. Lots of things help.

It's not Cooney's fault. We should have recruited better, but these arguments year after year always morph into immeasurables as the year progresses. The primary reason is that people need to justify PT for someone who plays big minutes due to poor recruiting - but is INCREDIBLY easy to root for.

Pretty much one side argues things that aren't even close to quantifiable to justify his playing time. These have pretty much been the arguments as they have evolved:

• If Cooney had a post presence that he could play off of, watch out! Hey, Rak! Oh, didn't help.
• If Cooney had a second shooter AND a big man, watch out! Hey, Rak, hey G! Oh, didn't help.
• Without his spacing the team LITERALLY could not score. Oh, but they did.
• And as the February swoon hits, the defense reaches all-world levels.

Yet, the same people that follow that pattern will still tell you that nobody else is seeing what they're seeing. Okay. Maybe. It's quite possible that's the case.

The other argument is that he didn't get to play with the right lineups. A shooting guard shouldn't really need to have a team built to complement his skill set. It's kind of a given most shooting guards will be multi-faceted enough to deal. How about life would have been easier for Joseph or G if they had a shooting guard with a more developed skill-set. Or if G could have played off the ball this year more.

I might play him similar minutes, probably 5-10 (or 25) less per game, mostly because recruiting has been poor at that position, but these arguments seem to be stretching it a tad at times.

And I DO NOT think Howard should get more minutes than Cooney, just that people that argue that Cooney is not one of our bigger issues, and eats up too many minutes are befuddling to me personally. I know some people see it other ways, and that's fine too. Bees, br, etc...think the defense (amongst other positives) is a game-changer, and they may very well be right. I don't see it that way, I think he's kind of slow on defense, and that's why forwards have to cheat up much more the past few years...but otherwise he positions himself very well. JB knows best though, I hope.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with some (ALL) of this. Also, going to go on some tangents as always. Although I am concerned that nobody is saying you're bashing Howard in this one!!! (Just joking)

I'm a tad lost on the second paragraph. He puts him in during the first half, typically under normal game circumstances. He's put him in when we were down a couple recently, so it's not predicated upon us building a lead. Plus, we rarely build cushions anyway. Do you just mean by playing him primarily in the first half that is by itself an "ideal situation?" If so, fair point. Otherwise, just wondering what you mean by "ideal."

I would take some exception to terming it, "so little production." At least from my perspective. I mean, if you take assists/points/rebounds in conference only, where Howard tends to play non-garbage minutes as well:

7 assists per 40 minutes, versus 2 for TC with a better turnover to assist ratio. Frosh PG vs. a 5th Year Senior, one plays SG one plays PG, but still, a pretty steep contrast.

About two more rebounds per 40 minutes for Howard in conference. Howard averages more steals per 40 minutes as well.

He also shoots higher from 2 point range (37% vs 30%), worse from three point range (34% vs. 13%). We're not so desperately in need of three point shooting this year though either, as may have been the case in years past. Cooney takes home the huge win in points per game, 13.5 to 5.5.

There are plenty of pass-first, low output point guards. If JB was to up his minutes to 2o or 30 per game, I would imagine to a certain extent he would also be removing the red light - he would at least have the same leash as Joseph had last season. That would allow for more penetration, more mid-range stuff, etc. I'm not sure drawing HUGE conclusions about his offensive aptitude when he has a red-light is logical, but we can disagree on that.

In M2M, TC is simply an easy mark - throw a chaser on him, and if he's at all adept on defense, you win the war. If the choice was to double the post by hedging off the the screen, or guard Cooney, that would be helpful, but nobody is that concerned with us throwing the ball into the post so they chase.

You can overplay him all day and he's not going to burn you with any consistency. His passing is blah, his handle is good but he's slow with the ball, his mid-range game is weak, finishing terrible, etc...Obviously, having TC closely guarded opens up lanes as well, but we're really starting to stretch it to come up with reasons to justify his big minutes when this is all we got.

With our roster the way it is, having a penetrator would be quite beneficial. Howard is by no means the BIG answer either at this point. He's clearly a Frosh PG with limitations. However, having someone who can make plays off the bounce, drive to the rim, etc...does force the defense to react/adjust. You get defenders to hedge, and the movement opens up other passing lanes. Does Cooney being closely guarded/his constant movement help? Yup. Does having a legit PG on the floor? Yup. People discount that pretty readily though. Lots of things help.

It's not Cooney's fault. We should have recruited better, but these arguments year after year always morph into immeasurables as the year progresses. The primary reason is that people need to justify PT for someone who plays big minutes due to poor recruiting - but is INCREDIBLY easy to root for.

Pretty much one side argues things that aren't even close to quantifiable to justify his playing time. These have pretty much been the arguments as they have evolved:

• If Cooney had a post presence that he could play off of, watch out! Hey, Rak! Oh, didn't help.
• If Cooney had a second shooter AND a big man, watch out! Hey, Rak, hey G! Oh, didn't help.
• Without his spacing the team LITERALLY could not score. Oh, but they did.
• And as the February swoon hits, the defense reaches all-world levels.

Yet, the same people that follow that pattern will still tell you that nobody else is seeing what they're seeing. Okay. Maybe. It's quite possible that's the case.

The other argument is that he didn't get to play with the right lineups. A shooting guard shouldn't really need to have a team built to complement his skill set. It's kind of a given most shooting guards will be multi-faceted enough to deal. How about life would have been easier for Joseph or G if they had a shooting guard with a more developed skill-set. Or if G could have played off the ball this year more.

I might play him similar minutes, probably 5-10 (or 25) less per game, mostly because recruiting has been poor at that position, but these arguments seem to be stretching it a tad at times.

And I DO NOT think Howard should get more minutes than Cooney, just that people that argue that Cooney is not one of our bigger issues, and eats up too many minutes are befuddling to me personally. I know some people see it other ways, and that's fine too. Bees, br, etc...think the defense (amongst other positives) is a game-changer, and they may very well be right. I don't see it that way, I think he's kind of slow on defense, and that's why forwards have to cheat up much more the past few years...but otherwise he positions himself very well. JB knows best though, I hope.

Such an incredible post. Seriously. Very well articulated. And you're not "hating" at all.

Well done. Agree with it all.

 

[Cuse House]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with some (ALL) of this. Also, going to go on some tangents as always. Although I am concerned that nobody is saying you're bashing Howard in this one!!! (Just joking)

I'm a tad lost on the second paragraph. He puts him in during the first half, typically under normal game circumstances. He's put him in when we were down a couple recently, so it's not predicated upon us building a lead. Plus, we rarely build cushions anyway. Do you just mean by playing him primarily in the first half that is by itself an "ideal situation?" If so, fair point. Otherwise, just wondering what you mean by "ideal."

I would take some exception to terming it, "so little production." At least from my perspective. I mean, if you take assists/points/rebounds in conference only, where Howard tends to play non-garbage minutes as well:

7 assists per 40 minutes, versus 2 for TC with a better turnover to assist ratio. Frosh PG vs. a 5th Year Senior, one plays SG one plays PG, but still, a pretty steep contrast.

About two more rebounds per 40 minutes for Howard in conference. Howard averages more steals per 40 minutes as well.

He also shoots higher from 2 point range (37% vs 30%), worse from three point range (34% vs. 13%). We're not so desperately in need of three point shooting this year though either, as may have been the case in years past. Cooney takes home the huge win in points per game, 13.5 to 5.5.

There are plenty of pass-first, low output point guards. If JB was to up his minutes to 2o or 30 per game, I would imagine to a certain extent he would also be removing the red light - he would at least have the same leash as Joseph had last season. That would allow for more penetration, more mid-range stuff, etc. I'm not sure drawing HUGE conclusions about his offensive aptitude when he has a red-light is logical, but we can disagree on that.

In M2M, TC is simply an easy mark - throw a chaser on him, and if he's at all adept on defense, you win the war. If the choice was to double the post by hedging off the the screen, or guard Cooney, that would be helpful, but nobody is that concerned with us throwing the ball into the post so they chase.

You can overplay him all day and he's not going to burn you with any consistency. His passing is blah, his handle is good but he's slow with the ball, his mid-range game is weak, finishing terrible, etc...Obviously, having TC closely guarded opens up lanes as well, but we're really starting to stretch it to come up with reasons to justify his big minutes when this is all we got.

With our roster the way it is, having a penetrator would be quite beneficial. Howard is by no means the BIG answer either at this point. He's clearly a Frosh PG with limitations. However, having someone who can make plays off the bounce, drive to the rim, etc...does force the defense to react/adjust. You get defenders to hedge, and the movement opens up other passing lanes. Does Cooney being closely guarded/his constant movement help? Yup. Does having a legit PG on the floor? Yup. People discount that pretty readily though. Lots of things help.

It's not Cooney's fault. We should have recruited better, but these arguments year after year always morph into immeasurables as the year progresses. The primary reason is that people need to justify PT for someone who plays big minutes due to poor recruiting - but is INCREDIBLY easy to root for.

Pretty much one side argues things that aren't even close to quantifiable to justify his playing time. These have pretty much been the arguments as they have evolved:

• If Cooney had a post presence that he could play off of, watch out! Hey, Rak! Oh, didn't help.
• If Cooney had a second shooter AND a big man, watch out! Hey, Rak, hey G! Oh, didn't help.
• Without his spacing the team LITERALLY could not score. Oh, but they did.
• And as the February swoon hits, the defense reaches all-world levels.

Yet, the same people that follow that pattern will still tell you that nobody else is seeing what they're seeing. Okay. Maybe. It's quite possible that's the case.

The other argument is that he didn't get to play with the right lineups. A shooting guard shouldn't really need to have a team built to complement his skill set. It's kind of a given most shooting guards will be multi-faceted enough to deal. How about life would have been easier for Joseph or G if they had a shooting guard with a more developed skill-set. Or if G could have played off the ball this year more.

I might play him similar minutes, probably 5-10 (or 25) less per game, mostly because recruiting has been poor at that position, but these arguments seem to be stretching it a tad at times.

And I DO NOT think Howard should get more minutes than Cooney, just that people that argue that Cooney is not one of our bigger issues, and eats up too many minutes are befuddling to me personally. I know some people see it other ways, and that's fine too. Bees, br, etc...think the defense (amongst other positives) is a game-changer, and they may very well be right. I don't see it that way, I think he's kind of slow on defense, and that's why forwards have to cheat up much more the past few years...but otherwise he positions himself very well. JB knows best though, I hope.

Such a phenomenal post! I agree with you 100%. To me Howard is a creater and helps the offense flow more freely. Sure, Cooney is a better defender but overall, we need the offensive output. I love TC, when he is hot give him 35+ minutes. When he is not though, the offense is stagnant and he is a liability. I never understand the viewpoint that Howard is an offensive liability. The dude gets his teammates layups and open looks consistently. That is offense! Seems to me the Cooney defenders have beefed up their chests to defend our hardworking senior. Sometimes that isn't enough to warrant minutes. Once again I root for TC as I do everyone.

 

[br801]

There are many excellent posts within this thread coming from all sides of this debate. If anything, I'm more confused than before. But that's fine.

 

[Cusefannotindc]

He also shoots higher from 2 point range (37% vs 30%), worse from three point range (34% vs. 13%). We're not so desperately in need of three point shooting this year though either, as may have been the case in years past. Cooney takes home the huge win in points per game, 13.5 to 5.5.

These comparisons don't really matter. It is not a game of horse, an attempt is an attempt. Cooney's eFG is 44.4%, Howard's is 30.4%. Cooney's True Shooting % (which accounts for free throws) is 49%, Howard's is 34%.

A shot from Cooney is just more valuable than one from Howard.