Which is better?

[SWC75]

JB stressed the Final Fours that we went to in 2013 and 2016, when we went 30-10 and 23-14 and finished the regular season ranked 19th and not even receiving votes as if it made those seasons as good as the 2010, 2012 and 2014 seasons when we went 30-5, 34-3 and 28-6 and wound up ranked 3rd, 2nd and 11th after being ranked #1 for a total of 10 weeks.

Obliviously the ultimate goal is a post season run to a championship and any Final Four run is enjoyable but I have to say that i enjoyed 2010, 2012 and 2014 more than 2013 and 2016 because we were good for four months rather than two weeks. We had a better team to root for with far fewer controversies and frustrations. This board is a more pleasant read after a win, (or at least a winning streak) than after a loss and our outlook tends to be dictated by how recent seasons have gone. We were clearly a happier fan base from 2009-14 than in 2015-21. I'm sure we'd like to go back - or get back - to those days.

Did you enjoy 2013 and 2016 as much as 2010, 2012 and 2014? Did the runs we had at the end of those season make them as good as season as 2010, 2012 and 2014? Were the teams as good? Did the runs make you feel as good about the state of the program?

 

[Cuse#1]

though the end result, championship is the ultimate goal but being very good to great like we were in that stretch is also imo very important because being relavant, much more coverage and recruiting is an all year around game.

 

[Alsacs]

I asked this 4 years ago.

Kansas is an example why the college basketball regular season doesn't really matter

I mean they have been super successful and that fanbase should appreciate Bill Self. 385-83 in 13 years. 12 regular season Big XII titles 7 Big XII tournament titles 1 National Title 2 Final Fours Self has had Kansas as a 4 seed or better EVERY year. 2004- 4 seed Elite 8 2005- 3 seed first round...

syracusefan.com

 

[Eric15]

It's more important for national prestige purposes to get to the Final Four and win titles, because for better or for worse, that's ultimately how college basketball greatness is measured.

That being said, what the 2010 and 2012 teams accomplished is more much, much more impressive than what the 2016 team accomplished. Like not even close. And regular season success is generally a better predictor of how a team will do the next season than a tourney run (observational, not data-backed).

It doesn't make sense that we don't hang banners for regular season conference basketball titles. Even if it's just one banner but years listed on them. Bob Knight in all his awfulness was always on the money when he would argue that regular season titles are meaningful and don't really get enough respect.

 

[Cusefan0307]

We won 30 games in 2013. According to KenPom that was our third best team in the last 25 seasons. Better than the National Title team per 100 possessions. The only reason that team lost a lot of games was because the Big East was ridiculous that year.

 

[Alsacs]

It's more important for national prestige purposes to get to the Final Four and win titles, because for better or for worse, that's ultimately how college basketball greatness is measured.

That being said, what the 2010 and 2012 teams accomplished is more much, much more impressive than what the 2016 team accomplished. Like not even close. And regular season success is generally a better predictor of how a team will do the next season than a tourney run.

It doesn't make sense that we don't hang banners for regular season conference basketball titles. Even if it's just one banner but years listed on them. Bob Knight in all his awfulness was always on the money when he would argue that regular season titles are meaningful and don't really get enough respect.

If regular season conference titles are true round robin then okay.
However they aren’t.
Conferences schedules in the ACC, Big Ten and SEc aren’t true round robins.

 

[Alsacs]

If my choices are 7 medicore regular seasons in a row and 1 Final Four and no NC or the last 7 years of West Virginia with 5 really solid regular seasons, 2 seasons no NCAAT and not advancing beyond the sweet 16 then it’s really hard to choose.

 

[Eric15]

If regular season conference titles are true round robin then okay.
However they aren’t.
Conferences schedules in the ACC, Big Ten and SEc aren’t true round robins.

Even still, I think going 17-1 in the Big East (which could have been 18-0 with Fab) is one of the hardest accomplishments of the Boeheim era.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Even still, I think going 17-1 in the Big East (which could have been 18-0 with Fab) is one of the hardest accomplishments of the Boeheim era.

TBH I remember the 2013 team more fondly. That team had the talent to win it all, without the pressure and distractions as the season before. I really don’t remember 2012 that well just because of the drama surrounding it.

 

[Alsacs]

2012 got a tough draw Wisconsin was a smart team and Ohio State with Sullinger had been top 5 most of the season.
Even without Melo if we had a fairly officiated Elite 8 game I think we play Kentucky for the title and lose to Anthony Davis most likely.
With Fab we could have won it all.

2013 we started hot. Lost a dumb game to Temple at MSG.
Then faced a meat grinding Big East schedule. The defense was the best ever Jim Boeheim zone.

The problem is he didn’t help the offense at all. We relied on ISO ball and Southerland 3’s.
CJ Fair, Triche, MCW carried the half court offense.

We didn’t get anything easy in the half court.
We played awful against Georgetown but finally beat them at MSG.
Our half court offense was atrociously designed.

We should have beaten Michigan and played poorly first half and they missed like 6 FTs the last minutes. If Triche didn’t get screwed by Jordan Morgan obvious slide under him we tie that game and go to OT.

Those teams were perfect college teams.

 

[Eric15]

TBH I remember the 2013 team more fondly. That team had the talent to win it all, without the pressure and distractions as the season before. I really don’t remember 2012 that well just because of the drama surrounding it.

I don't blame you, NCAA runs are what get remembered. There were a number of SU teams better than 1996 (a 4 seed that only had to beat one higher seeded team before playing Kentucky) but that is one we are most nostalgic about.

Per SRS, 1988 Kansas is the 42nd best team in program history. But I bet it gets talked about the most.

 

[Scooch]

As has been the case all too often lately, JB’s premise was off, and it’s really a false choice.

The 2013 team was very good, and went into the tourney as a #4 seed. I tend to think that anytime you’re a #4 seed or better you have a legitimate shot at the Final Four. Making it is the culmination of a very good season, not some flukey March run.

2016 is, obviously, the example of said flukey run. It was a lot of fun, and we’ll all take it over the alternative of not making the tourney or flaming out in the first round. But it’s not a sustainable model for a program to experience success.

So I’ll be blunt, if JB’s goal for the program is to have .500 conference records, scrape our way into the tourney some years, and hope we knock off a team or two en route to the Final Four... that’s dumb.

 

[dan7800]

Beating Georgetown is most important. They are nerds.

 

[Alsacs]

I don't blame you, NCAA runs are what get remembered. There were a number of SU teams better than 1996 (a 4 seed that only had to beat one higher seeded team before playing Kentucky) but that is one we are most nostalgic about.

Per SRS, 1988 Kansas is the 42nd best team in program history. But I bet it gets talked about the most.

1996 wasn’t a freebie run.
Georgia beat Purdue.
I mean we lost to 8 seed Alabama in 2004.
Kansas was legit then had Paul Pierce, Jacque Vaughn and LaFrentz it was a stacked team.

That Mississippi State team was damn good. They beat up UConn and had Erick Dampier when he actually gave a full effort. That Mississippi State team was on a huge winning streak. They had beaten Kentucky in the SEC tournament.

96 wasn’t a fluke if we didn’t faced 96 Kentucky one of the best college teams we could have won the NC.

 

[Cusefan0307]

13 was better than 2003. 96 and 13 were both better than 87.

Syracuse Orange Men's Basketball Index | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

Check out the Syracuse Orange College Basketball History, Stats, Records, Polls, Leaders and More College Basketball Stats at Sports-Reference.com

www.sports-reference.com

 

[syrBossHogg]

TBH I remember the 2013 team more fondly. That team had the talent to win it all, without the pressure and distractions as the season before. I really don’t remember 2012 that well just because of the drama surrounding it.

I do remember when Southerland got suspended and fans being all "Here we go again" given the recent history with AO and Fab. But yeah thankfully it was only that and Southerland gave us an incredible BET run

 

[Cusefan0307]

I do remember when Southerland got suspended and fans being all "Here we go again" given the recent history with AO and Fab. But yeah thankfully it was only that and Southerland gave us an incredible BET run

Yeah and without him we beat the number 1 team in the country on their court.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Having the better team is better. Which is marked by Season Performance.

The overall objective is to win the NCAA tournament. But, having the better team during the season is the best way to accomplish that. A winning streak during the tournament with a less-impressive season performance... that's very nice, but...

• The objective when you start a season is to win each game; win your conference; be ranked very highly to attract future players and prime tv broadcasts and PR; get the best NCAA seed to maximize your odds of succeeding in the tournament; and then to win the tournament.

For the purpose of illustrating the point, here's an exaggerated example:

A team that goes undefeated during the season, is ranked No. 1 from wire to wire, wins the ACC tournament, gets a No 1 seed, and then loses in the first round...

is better than

A team that goes 19-11, is never ranked top 25, finishes .500 in the ACC, loses in the first round of the ACC Tournament, is on the bubble but sneaks into the NCAA, gets the benefit of two higher-seeded potential opponents losing before we get to them, then wins a few games and reaches a Final Four.

NCAA runs get remembered... by those of us who are already fans. Which does nothing toward building the program. We don't build or maintain our legacy/heritage/image by being on the bubble and sneaking into a FF every ten years. Recruits don't recognize that stuff while they're in junior high and high school unless it happens while they're actively being recruited by us or they were already fans.

We are in a period of not signing top talent because we are in a long period of not being nationally relevant (ranked), not being nationally respected as a power. Sanctions may have had some role in all of that, but the kids don't know about sanctions. They know which teams play an exciting game, which ones get high, impactful draft picks, which ones are on tv a lot.

 

[CU44SE]

2012 got a tough draw Wisconsin was a smart team and Ohio State with Sullinger had been top 5 most of the season.
Even without Melo if we had a fairly officiated Elite 8 game I think we play Kentucky for the title and lose to Anthony Davis most likely.
With Fab we could have won it all.

2013 we started hot. Lost a dumb game to Temple at MSG.
Then faced a meat grinding Big East schedule. The defense was the best ever Jim Boeheim zone.

The problem is he didn’t help the offense at all. We relied on ISO ball and Southerland 3’s.
CJ Fair, Triche, MCW carried the half court offense.

We didn’t get anything easy in the half court.
We played awful against Georgetown but finally beat them at MSG.
Our half court offense was atrociously designed.

We should have beaten Michigan and played poorly first half and they missed like 6 FTs the last minutes. If Triche didn’t get screwed by Jordan Morgan obvious slide under him we tie that game and go to OT.

Those teams were perfect college teams.

I don’t believe in conspiracy theories. But that was a very tough draw we got in 2012 as you said. And that may have been one of the worst officiated games I have ever seen against Ohio State. As you said, we are not winning the title without Fab Melo but we could have deffinetly beat Ohio State.

Not looking at success. 2009-10 and 2011-12 may be my most fond memories. Those seasons were incredibly fun. The best offensive team and the best defensive team I can remember watching at Syracuse. Both were title contenders before the injury and suspension. Those teams play the season 10 times I think they win the title 5 times. That’s why I would rather regular season success. It’s a long winter, it brings joy. You can be proud of your team and you have hope. As someone above mentioned, it’s a 5 month enjoyment rather then a 3 week endeavor. I am also of the belief that regular season success generally leads to tournament success so yes, I take the regular season success all day every day.

 

[syrBossHogg]

I enjoyed 2010 and 2012 the most but I was also on campus during those years so it made them extra special. 2013 was both a good regular season and a good postseason year IMO. What made 2016 so special was it felt we could still succeed despite the sanctions, and that we would return to elite form soon.

These past 2-3 years have made me finally realized we're not the program we used to be, sadly.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Beating Georgetown is most important. They are nerds.

Well, not most of the players

 

[MSOrange]

I don’t believe in conspiracy theories. But that was a very tough draw we got in 2012 as you said. And that may have been one of the worst officiated games I have ever seen against Ohio State. As you said, we are not winning the title without Fab Melo but we could have deffinetly beat Ohio State.

Not looking at success. 2009-10 and 2011-12 may be my most fond memories. Those seasons were incredibly fun. The best offensive team and the best defensive team I can remember watching at Syracuse. Both were title contenders before the injury and suspension. Those teams play the season 10 times I think they win the title 5 times. That’s why I would rather regular season success. It’s a long winter, it brings joy. You can be proud of your team and you have hope. As someone above mentioned, it’s a 5 month enjoyment rather then a 3 week endeavor. I am also of the belief that regular season success generally leads to tournament success so yes, I take the regular season success all day every day.

Very good post. This sentence sums it up for me - "I am also of the belief that regular season success generally leads to tournament success so yes, I take the regular season success all day every day."

YES! Just because it happened in 2016 as a low seed for us doesn't mean it happens on a regular basis. If you look at the final 4 participants over the years, your chances are much better if you have a really good regular season.

 

[CU44SE]

Very good post. This sentence sums it up for me - "I am also of the belief that regular season success generally leads to tournament success so yes, I take the regular season success all day every day."

YES! Just because it happened in 2016 as a low seed for us doesn't mean it happens on a regular basis. If you look at the final 4 participants over the years, your chances are much better if you have a really good regular season.

To your point. Here is two charts which show the history of the tournament up until this year.

 

[Alsacs]

Very good post. This sentence sums it up for me - "I am also of the belief that regular season success generally leads to tournament success so yes, I take the regular season success all day every day."

YES! Just because it happened in 2016 as a low seed for us doesn't mean it happens on a regular basis. If you look at the final 4 participants over the years, your chances are much better if you have a really good regular season.

We were literally the first 10 seed to make the final four.

11 seeds have made it 4 times.
1986 LSU, 2006, George Mason, 2011 VCU, 2018 Loyola.

 

[bozophobe]

Even still, I think going 17-1 in the Big East (which could have been 18-0 with Fab) is one of the hardest accomplishments of the Boeheim era.

Alsacs has a great point about the hard choice, but stepping back and looking at our whole lives plus basketball, instead of just the latter, makes the choice easier for me. I'm talking about (living in the North) the seasonal changes and relying on basketball culture as part of our Winter experience.

I don't feel as strongly about baseball as I used to, but man does it feel good when that (and so much else) takes off again every year- especially when recovering from the latest gut punch when S.U. got knocked out of the Tournament again (as most teams do). Or didn't make it. That Keith Smart shot lingered in me a little for 16 years, until Hak bizarrely paid that ghost to leave town from that same spot of hardwood. But that's gravy and glory. Bucket list stuff. Not sustenance.

So a good long Winter season seems better, overall, because we weren't going to end on a positive note, anyway. The tournament is a crapshoot.