Who is the greatest PG in SU history?

[Jack Hall]

Obviously I voted for my board namesake, but I have to say I am surprised the vote is so lopsided. I expected it to be close to 50/50, and I suspect RF's well written post in favor of Douglas at the beginning of this thread has something to do with his landslide advantage.

From my perspective, Douglas left Syracuse as the schools all time leader in points and steals, and the nation's all time leader in assists, and he did it in 3 years at a time when almost everybody stayed 4 years. You can't ask for much more than that from a point guard.

As vague as the term is, he was also perhaps Syracuse's biggest "winner." He would do anything to gain an advantage, and he lead Syracuse to a title game and an elite 8 appearance because of it.

From a fan perspective, there is no doubt in my mind he was the most fun basketball player to watch I have ever seen on any level of basketball.

Sherm was here 4 yrs, if you hadnt liked that post from houston i wouldnt have pointed that out

 

[RF2044]

MCW would have been if he stayed 4 years, but I think Autry had a pretty good combination of offense and defense. I'd give it to him or Jardine who I think is underrated and was not the point guard on two #1 seeds by accident.

How about best shooting guard under Boeheim. That might get interesting too. Moten had the best career,Thompson was the best athlete, Devendorf was unstoppable offensively, Waiters only had one good year, but I think he was the best guard in the country that year and you can't say that about any of the other players. Push comes to shove I'd take Rautins senior year over anybody else.

Autry is a great call--very underrated player who had an incredible senior season.

Hart / MCW have to be in that discussion, as well.

 

[jekelish]

I think you have to include Jonny Flynn in the discussion for the third PG. His stats were pretty incredible for his two seasons. Would have been interesting to see what kinds of numbers he'd have put up as a junior or even a senior.

 

[RF2044]

I think you have to include Jonny Flynn in the discussion for the third PG. His stats were pretty incredible for his two seasons. Would have been interesting to see what kinds of numbers he'd have put up as a junior or even a senior.

Flynn left just as he was beginning to figure out how to be a great facilitating lead guard without necessarily having to sacrifice his offense. I really wish he'd stuck around another year for his own development, but obviously things worked out great for us in the '09-'10 season, and I don't think we would have been as "good" that year with Flynn at the helm.

Flynn has to be atop the list of athletes to play this position [with apologies to Michael Lloyd, who was comparable]. Total package athletically. But I don't know that he made his teammates "better" -- he was explosive and a tremendous scorer, but not a transcendent lead guard [my opinion only]. For that reason, I put him below Autry. He's probably right there with Hart, Scoop, and maybe actually a little behind MCW.

Again, just my opinion. I love Flynn. Not trying to knock him.

 

[General20]

Sherm was here 4 yrs, if you hadnt liked that post from houston i wouldnt have pointed that out

He was here four years, but he only played three. The first year he sat the bench behind Pearl.

 

[jekelish]

Flynn left just as he was beginning to figure out how to be a great facilitating lead guard without necessarily having to sacrifice his offense. I really wish he'd stuck around another year for his own development, but obviously things worked out great for us in the '09-'10 season, and I don't think we would have been as "good" that year with Flynn at the helm.

Flynn has to be atop the list of athletes to play this position [with apologies to Michael Lloyd, who was comparable]. Total package athletically. But I don't know that he made his teammates "better" -- he was explosive and a tremendous scorer, but not a transcendent lead guard [my opinion only]. For that reason, I put him below Autry. He's probably right there with Hart, Scoop, and maybe actually a little behind MCW.

Again, just my opinion. I love Flynn. Not trying to knock him.

I agree with that. I admit, I would not put Scoop up there in that mix, personally. Hart is definitely in the tier after Pearl and Sherm, and I'd put MCW in about the same tier as Flynn, to be honest. I don't think MCW facilitated as well as he could have, frankly. He's a better passer, with better vision, than many of our past PGs but he didn't necessarily use that to his advantage as frequently as he could have. He also wasn't particularly special when it came to certain kinds of passes, and was a little too out of control for me to legitimately put him near the top of the list.

Autry, on the other hand, I would certainly put up there.

 

[orange79]

He was here four years, but he only played three. The first year he sat the bench behind Pearl.

Thing is, since we were blowing so many teams out, he still averaged 11+ minutes a game.

 

[Shermthegeneral]

I mean... is there even a debate? Sherman Douglas, by a landslide. I love the Pearl, and he was electric to watch. But he took games off, didn't play hard against the lesser teams on the schedule, and didn't play a lick of defense. In big games, there was nobody more clutch, but he didn't play with Sherman's relentless intensity. Sherman wanted to not only beat but to DESTROY every opponent we played. Pearl may have "built" the Dome, but Sherman Douglas elevated the program to the next level. He set the NCAA record for assists in THREE YEARS, after barely playing his freshman season. He got us to the national championship game in his first year as a sophomore. He orchestrated some of the most exciting years of play in program history, and he went on to have a very solid pro career as a starting NBA point guard. IMO, these two are on a level all to themselves when it comes to discussing all time program great point guards [and I know the younger fans will be pounding the Flynn /MCW drum], but even within this rarified pantheon of excellence, there is a huge stratification. Sherman Douglas, no question, hands down.

I agree 100% with us!

 

[Eric15]

Sherm is up 31 to 5. This is a Reagan/Mondale-esque landslide.

 

[rrlbees]

Pearl
Sherman
GMac
Hart
Autry

 

[suttree]

Obviously I voted for my board namesake, but I have to say I am surprised the vote is so lopsided. I expected it to be close to 50/50, and I suspect RF's well written post in favor of Douglas at the beginning of this thread has something to do with his landslide advantage.

From my perspective, Douglas left Syracuse as the schools all time leader in points and steals, and the nation's all time leader in assists, and he did it in 3 years at a time when almost everybody stayed 4 years. You can't ask for much more than that from a point guard.

As vague as the term is, he was also perhaps Syracuse's biggest "winner." He would do anything to gain an advantage, and he lead Syracuse to a title game and an elite 8 appearance because of it.

From a fan perspective, there is no doubt in my mind he was the most fun basketball player to watch I have ever seen on any level of basketball.

Fun, you say?


(Thanks, senorpalmer.) Got to tack on my vote in favor of Sherm, too. Growing up as a townie boy mostly on Tipp Hill, I already loved and followed the team religiously before his arrival, but he sealed the deal forever.

Have to say that, for dedication/loyalty/playing combo purposes, I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Allen Griffin. Dude lost his starting job but stuck with it and came back. Loved that guy.

 

[OttoMets]

You want a good poll? Ask who the 3rd best PG in Syracuse history was. Moss, Autry, Hart, GMac, Flynn, MCW, Ennis, Jardine, Sims? Could lead to some great debate and a discussion of does years played matter? Best career? Best season?

Great idea for a poll, especially because you left our #3 point guard out of your post.

Hint: he's got a ring.

 

[cuseincincy]

MCW would have been if he stayed 4 years, but I think Autry had a pretty good combination of offense and defense. I'd give it to him or Jardine who I think is underrated and was not the point guard on two #1 seeds by accident.

How about best shooting guard under Boeheim. That might get interesting too. Moten had the best career,Thompson was the best athlete, Devendorf was unstoppable offensively, Waiters only had one good year, but I think he was the best guard in the country that year and you can't say that about any of the other players. Push comes to shove I'd take Rautins senior year over anybody else.

Ahem...Poetry in Moten was one of my favorites (seriously who can't be a fan of somebody who because the Big East's all time leading scorer?) But I'd give best 2G to Raf Addison. I almost think SU needs a 6th category for swingmen. Guys who were not really a 2 or a 3 but were a little of both. Shackelford, Bruin, Santifer, L Rautins, Moten, Addison, Johnson, Thompson, Jackson, Cipolla, Shumpert, Duany, Pace, Southerland, Nichols. I would Gbinije and BJ are those types right now. Best "classic" 2 G I give to A Rautins. We could argue all week about whether those guys I just listed were 2's or 3's. Most importantly to me they were Orangemen. Go SU! Best classic 3 and 4 are such no brainers I won't mention even them.

 

[cuseincincy]

Pearl
Sherman
GMac
Hart
Autry

If Jason Hart could have made a layup he might have broken Moten's scoring record. Unstoppable to the rim. Missed soooo many layups. Best defensive PG since Eddie Moss, probably better than Moss.

 

[two3zone]

I'm 36 and my first memory of Syracuse basketball was Sherm, I even had a Sherman Douglas "The General" tshirt back then.

I would vote him.


I really think if Billy Edilen came here, player his 4 years and played to his capabilities (capabilities not talent) his whole time here I think every record in the books here for a point guard would be his. I think he could have been really really special here. Sad story.

 

[Corpi33]

1. The General
1A. The Pearl

 

[81South]

Sherman...for all the reasons mentioned already. I wonder which one JB would pick

 

[Eric15]

I cannot freaking believe this thread. I was literally just this morning starting work on an article comparing Pearl and Sherm with this exact premise.

Damn you, Eric15

Jekelish, be honest, you had some champagne to celebrate your 20,000th like...

 

[Henny & Coke]

Pearl
Sherman
GMac
Hart
Autry

MCW has to be top 5 (IMO).

As more time passes, it becomes more astonishing to me that he was as good as he was (2nd most assists in a season in SU History; most steals ever in a season in SU History) and took SU to the Final Four that year...I mean, the group of players he had around him pales in comparison to what guys like Sherm & Pearl, etc had:

MCW - Triche, Fair, Southerland...these guys are all nice enough players, but none so talented that they are playing in NBA right now (don't think)...then a real offensive drop off to guys like (Soph season) RAK & Keita. When I think about the number of assists he put up with that group around him, I shake my head in disbelief.

And then compare to the supporting cast of some of the others:

Sherm - Derrick Coleman, Rony Seikaly, Stephen Thompson, Billy Owens...these are SU legends. All 4 of those guys are better than the best guy MCW had on his squad.

Pearl - Raf Addison, Rony Seikaly...both future NBA players (that had long pro careers) & better than the best guy MCW had.

Autry - Billy Owens, Lawrence Moten, Dave Johnson, John Wallace...again, these guys are some of the best to ever play at SU.

Hart - Best player he played with was Etan Thomas, who had a very nice pro career. Besides Etan, though, the relative talent level of rest of team looks about similar to what MCW had to work with.

I'm just surprised that it doesn't get mentioned often...how MCW had such a great season & led SU to the Final Four with just an "average" (relatively speaking, for SU purposes) supporting cast.

 

[Jack Hall]

True but Grant and Rak were also on that team and both hopefully will be legit nba players. Grant looks that way so far...

But i do believe if MCW had stayed one more year, like Pearl, he would be mentioned up there w Sherm and Pearl

 

[Jake]

Exposure. Just go back and watch the 30 for 30 on the Big East. Hell we were on all the time.

And nobody else was...

 

[tbonezone]

depends on my team . i'll take pearl creating on his own or sherm with a little help from his friends.

 

[stone567]

It is a tough question to answer. I agree that Sherm might be the best pure point guard in this history of Syracuse. But, Pearl is in the argument as the single-most dominant player in this history of Syracuse I did not see Bing play, so that is an unanswered question). Pearl had an ability to completely dominant a game that I have never seen since he left. The only one close was Carmelo. This is an impossible question to answer. If I was going to pick an all time SU team, I would pick Sherm as the PG and Pearl as the greatest player.

 

[Jake]

It's a helluva lot closer than 31-6. Completely different players in my mind.

:30 to go down 1 in a big game? Pearl

Running a team for 40 minutes, give me Sherm.

Want to be entertained? Pearl in a landslide.

Leadership skills? Sherm in another landslide.

Defense. To be honest, neither were outstanding. Someone mentioned above that Pearl didn't play defense. Let the record show that his 2.3 steals per game rank him way above Sherman's 1.8 and I think top 3 all time.

Did Pearl take plays off? Yep. But he had an incredible knack for jumping a passing lane or picking someone's pocket clean for break away.

Sherm was the smartest player I ever saw on the court.

Pearl was the most intuitive.

Sherman played with great intensity.

Pearl played with great joy...like he was toying with you.

Go watch the 30 for 30. Watch the segment on Pearl. There was just something about him, at that time, in that conference, against those Hoyas that can't be replicated.

If you ask me who the greatest PURE PG is...I'd probably say Sherm.

If you ask me who the greatest scoring PG is, I'd say Pearl.

I'd love to see Pearl play 2 seasons with Coleman or Owens.

It cannot be argued that Sherman played with a more talented cast. Those alley oops probably wouldn't have been as successful if Andre Hawkins and Sean Kerins were on the other end.

 

[rrlbees]

MCW has to be top 5 (IMO). As more time passes, it becomes more astonishing to me that he was as good as he was (2nd most assists in a season in SU History; most steals ever in a season in SU History) and took SU to the Final Four that year...I mean, the group of players he had around him pales in comparison to what guys like Sherm & Pearl, etc had: MCW - Triche, Fair, Southerland...these guys are all nice enough players, but none so talented that they are playing in NBA right now (don't think)...then a real offensive drop off to guys like (Soph season) RAK & Keita. When I think about the number of assists he put up with that group around him, I shake my head in disbelief. And then compare to the supporting cast of some of the others: Sherm - Derrick Coleman, Rony Seikaly, Stephen Thompson, Billy Owens...these are SU legends. All 4 of those guys are better than the best guy MCW had on his squad. Pearl - Raf Addison, Rony Seikaly...both future NBA players (that had long pro careers) & better than the best guy MCW had. Autry - Billy Owens, Lawrence Moten, Dave Johnson, John Wallace...again, these guys are some of the best to ever play at SU. Hart - Best player he played with was Etan Thomas, who had a very nice pro career. Besides Etan, though, the relative talent level of rest of team looks about similar to what MCW had to work with. I'm just surprised that it doesn't get mentioned often...how MCW had such a great season & led SU to the Final Four with just an "average" (relatively speaking, for SU purposes) supporting cast.

Yea I had a tough time deciding who to leave off between the 6. It came down to MCW being a 1 year guy basically. Nothing more.