Why do we not have any depth?

[orangenirvana]

 

[Ottoble]

Most of that adds up to how well are we recruiting. The 2013 class was affected by Marrone's departure. The 2014 class was better on paper, but a third of that class never made or has left. Right there is the current depth issue -- what happened with Shafer's 2013 and 2014 classes.
In contrast, the 2015 class is solid and deep. Repeat that in the 2016 cycle, add 3 or 4 jucos, and we have normal depth. Teams don't need 85 good players to have good depth. You win or lose with the top 45.

I think much of this in 2013&2014 classes is the Mcfkit affect, as our big recruiter he recruited a ton of non quals and or guys that had never visited campus. They committed, took up a slot, and never made it here, switched late, or couldn't keep up their grades/behavior. We could have recruited a solid depth player with time and expectation of an empty slot but usually the problem would present close to or after LOI day and we had to fill the gap late with a smaller pool of noncomitted players. George was probably advising HCSS that they would all qualify/turn out may be part of the falling out also.

2015 is solid with one player we took a flier on not qualifying, educated risk and 2016 is also looking very solid (reason for patience?). I do think we need to Ramp up JUCO recruiting a bit. 2015 guy Ted Taylor has been High quality depth quick this year. Not to KSU levels but a couple more a year, this past class anticipating D Depth we should have recruited 4+, Ted, then 2 more DBs and one more DL

 

[Gooorange]

For the last 15 years?

I believe we have had 4 coaches in the last 15 years. Whenever a coach changes (for whatever reason), systems change, players transfer that don't fit, others quit for personality or discipline reasons, and the process of recruiting players that fit new coaching system begins all over again. Case in point, look at who Marrone had at QB to begin his tenure - a former basketball player in Greg Paulus.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I believe we have had 4 coaches in the last 15 years. Whenever a coach changes (for whatever reason), systems change, players transfer that don't fit, others quit for personality or discipline reasons, and the process of recruiting players that fit new coaching system begins all over again. Case in point, look at who Marrone had at QB to begin his tenure - a former basketball player in Greg Paulus.

That's former Gatorade NYS HS Football Player of the Year and Parade All-American Greg Paulus.

And Marrone also had that Nassib kid that GRob left him, but he wasn't quite ready to lead as a RF yet. His Soph, Junior, and Senior years worked out pretty good.

 

[elimunelson]

Under our chicken and egg coaching vs depth argument it stands to reason that perhaps P was a better coach than we continue to rate him.

We all know he eased up on recruiting but did he if the uconn/Rutgers Ascension was inevitable. We have 13 years of data now and I'd argue it hasn't gotten better or worse since and u can argue we have facilities and acc now.

Key is the coach. Makes me excited if we find our next pied piper

 

[TheCusian]

Under our chicken and egg coaching vs depth argument it stands to reason that perhaps P was a better coach than we continue to rate him. We all know he eased up on recruiting but did he if the uconn/Rutgers Ascension was inevitable. We have 13 years of data now and I'd argue it hasn't gotten better or worse since and u can argue we have facilities and acc now. Key is the coach. Makes me excited if we find our next pied piper

Coach P was good for 2/3 of the time but the talent and program was on a downward trajectory. Firing him was the right move, IMO. We gambled and lost. I prefer that to sticking with a losing hand.

 

[elimunelson]

Coach P was good for 2/3 of the time but the talent and program was on a downward trajectory. Firing him was the right move, IMO. We gambled and lost. I prefer that to sticking with a losing hand.

I'm not disputing the firing of P but if u look at it in hindsight he was perhaps doing the best u can in the new world order of how things are. It's interesting to see unfold if a new coach w dynamic ideas can get us past our 7 win plateau

 

[Gooorange]

That's former Gatorade NYS HS Football Player of the Year and Parade All-American Greg Paulus.

And Marrone also had that Nassib kid that GRob left him, but he wasn't quite ready to lead as a RF yet. His Soph, Junior, and Senior years worked out pretty good.

Correct and thank goodness he had some football skills, however my point was that due to the lack of depth, we needed Paulus to step in...if he didn't transfer in, not sure who else was there.

 

[SoBristol]

You have to go back to when Marrone was hired. How many kids left the team when he took over, how many did not meet their potential? How many were kicked off the team because they were arrested or suspended for failure to pass the drug test?

I don't see the relevance of Marrone's first two classes (or his turn-over in 2009). No need to rehash that far back.
With 22-25 slots each year, it takes 3 cycles to rebuild. So, to me, the holes in the current roster trace to what happened with the 2013 class and the 2014 class, and then to Shafer's inability to draw from the JC ranks to fill gaps. I should not say inability as much as his philosophy not to put any emphasis on recruiting jucos.

 

[CuseLegacy]

I don't see the relevance of Marrone's first two classes (or his turn-over in 2009). No need to rehash that far back.
With 22-25 slots each year, it takes 3 cycles to rebuild. So, to me, the holes in the current roster trace to what happened with the 2013 class and the 2014 class, and then to Shafer's inability to draw from the JC ranks to fill gaps. I should not say inability as much as his philosophy not to put any emphasis on recruiting jucos.

I disagree because it takes longer than 3 cylcles to rebuild and all the Jucos that were recruited in Marrones last class are part of the problem for lack of depth we have now.

 

[dasher]

There ya go. We are doomed. And everyone stresses how important recruiting the NE is?

It is important because we can get the best guys from those areas. We won't get anywhere near the best guys from players down south.

 

[SoBristol]

I disagree because it takes longer than 3 cylcles to rebuild and all the Jucos that were recruited in Marrones last class are part of the problem for lack of depth we have now.

I don't follow that at all; although it might be debatable whether you need 4 full classes when you go outside for a new head coach.

The present lack of depth at QB at this point has nothing to do with Marrone (other than how his departure affected the 2013 class). Hunt was injured and Wilson, Long and Kimble were Shafer recruits but not the right guys. Same at RB. where Morris and McFarlane should be providing depth, but haven't developed as expected. Same at WR. In the OL, the lack of depth is due to the loss of Knapp and Curtis to injury, and the recruiting of projects (Burton, McGloster, Lasker, Ward) who haven't worked out. In the DL, we lost Johnson to injury, Harvey to transfer, and Williams (a Shafer juco) washed out for non-football reasons. In the LB unit, Shafer's projects (Perry and Bennett) did not work out; and Ted Taylor was a lightly recruited juco (a better effort in the jucos might have provided help). In the DB unit, we have numbers, but not much size or quality; Whigham & Morgan have not developed. Kelly (the only recent JUCO DB), does not explain the quality issue we have in the secondary. Shafer banked on Prater and Blair who did not qualify.

 

[CuseLegacy]

I agree with some of what you are saying in regards to injuries and kids that have not reached potential having a direct effect on depth. Also remember some kids that were recruited never made it to campus. And I wouldn't call Ward a project.. he was pretty highly recruited.

I disagree on the QB spot. Marrone left us with only Hunt and Loeb, both with no on field experience because he rode Nassib. He leaves and no Zach Allen. We try the Drew Allen experiement and fail. Next year Hunt goes down and we have 3 freshmen QBs to play...one who committed to Shafer but was recruited by Marrone...Wilson. Of the 3 only one is left on the team Wilson. Then Alin never makes it to campus. So down again goes Hunt and you are playing a true freshman QB again this year with only a walk on for a serviceable backup. Lack of depth is cumulative.

 

[GoSU96]

The roster 1-85 is as physically talented, (at least team speed, size is an issue) as it has been in a long time, it's just a very young team, for a lot of reasons. And that's not even looking at the attrition to the 2013 class.

The 2012 roster had 45 freshmen and sophs on it. Of those 45, 20 are still with on the roster. Of those 20 only one, Jacob Green, wasn't on the two deep to start the year.

Of the 25, 10 played their four years, 1 declared early, the remainder injured out, transferred, or were dismissed.

That's why it's a young team.

 

[TheCusian]

I'm not disputing the firing of P but if u look at it in hindsight he was perhaps doing the best u can in the new world order of how things are. It's interesting to see unfold if a new coach w dynamic ideas can get us past our 7 win plateau

Problem was the trend line with P. His past successes and current mediocrity were not guaranteed moving forward.

I think a new coach with a modern offense could get to 7 within a year. Competing with Clemson and FSU for the division? That's a ways away no matter what due to talent, esp in the trenches.

 

[SoBristol]

I agree with some of what you are saying in regards to injuries and kids that have not reached potential having a direct effect on depth. Also remember some kids that were recruited never made it to campus. And I wouldn't call Ward a project.. he was pretty highly recruited.
Hig
I disagree on the QB spot. Marrone left us with only Hunt and Loeb, both with no on field experience because he rode Nassib. He leaves and no Zach Allen. We try the Drew Allen experiement and fail. Next year Hunt goes down and we have 3 freshmen QBs to play...one who committed to Shafer but was recruited by Marrone...Wilson. Of the 3 only one is left on the team Wilson. Then Alin never makes it to campus. So down again goes Hunt and you are playing a true freshman QB again this year with only a walk on for a serviceable backup. Lack of depth is cumulative.

Minor point, but Ward was definitely a project. He came in vastly overweight and out of shape. Throw out the ratings, which assumed Ward was a sleek athlete at 6ft 8 and 290 lbs. He wasn't.

On QB, we seem to agree there was a lack of quality depth in 2014 and 2015, but you trace that back to Marrone. I still can't buy that. Shafer did not bring in a serviceable QB to develop behind Hunt. He missed on offers to highly rated prospects, then brought in Kimble, Wilson, and the next cycle took a chance on the tiny AJ Long, and on Edouard's grades. 4 swings, 4 misses. Yes, Wilson was originally a Marrone commit, but the other 3 were not.

The current head coach can't blame his predecessor forever. When Marrone came in, he saw the need to bring in Paulus. When Shafer took over, he went out for Allen and at least had a qualified back--up in 2013. For 2014 and 2015, Shafer stood pat with Hunt, Wilson, and a true frosh. The current staff took that gamble.

 

[tep624]

Minor point, but Ward was definitely a project. He came in vastly overweight and out of shape. Throw out the ratings, which assumed Ward was a sleek athlete at 6ft 8 and 290 lbs. He wasn't.

On QB, we seem to agree there was a lack of quality depth in 2014 and 2015, but you trace that back to Marrone. I still can't buy that. Shafer did not bring in a serviceable QB to develop behind Hunt. He missed on offers to highly rated prospects, then brought in Kimble, Wilson, and the next cycle took a chance on the tiny AJ Long, and on Edouard's grades. 4 swings, 4 misses. Yes, Wilson was originally a Marrone commit, but the other 3 were not.

The current head coach can't blame his predecessor forever. When Marrone came in, he saw the need to bring in Paulus. When Shafer took over, he went out for Allen and at least had a qualified back--up in 2013. For 2014 and 2015, Shafer stood pat with Hunt, Wilson, and a true frosh. The current staff took that gamble.

Marrone recruited 1 serviceable QB over 4 recruiting cycles. Zach Allen was the only other one that looked promising and he's now a WR at TCU. 1 serviceable upperclassman QB during 2014 and 2015 is not Shafer's fault. Unless you feel they should have gone the Greg Paulus/Drew Allen route again.

 

[OrangeFoo]

So this is our lot in life. I'm really in a dark place now

You say this but then there is a whole other thread talking about how almost every FBS school but us has been in the top 25 at least once in the last 15 years. Temple just gave nd a game and is top 25. It's only our lot in life until we choose to do something about it by spending some money.

 

[qdawgg]

I believe we have had 4 coaches in the last 15 years. Whenever a coach changes (for whatever reason), systems change, players transfer that don't fit, others quit for personality or discipline reasons, and the process of recruiting players that fit new coaching system begins all over again. Case in point, look at who Marrone had at QB to begin his tenure - a former basketball player in Greg Paulus.

Not a significant factor IMO. Look at Pitt. They were getting a new coach every month for awhile, hasn't impacted their program at all.

 

[SoBristol]

Marrone recruited 1 serviceable QB over 4 recruiting cycles. Zach Allen was the only other one that looked promising and he's now a WR at TCU. 1 serviceable upperclassman QB during 2014 and 2015 is not Shafer's fault. Unless you feel they should have gone the Greg Paulus/Drew Allen route again.

I am not defending Marrone's recruiting of QBs. He was lucky to have Nassib, and Nassib's durability was a big key to the success Marrone achieved here.

My point is that Shafer is accountable for his own decisions and his own recruiting. Take 2014. Shafer went with Hunt, plus nothing behind him. Shafer's decision, not Marrone's. Yes, Shafer could have gone the Paulus route or (my preference) brought in a juco QB. He ran a huge risk when he didn't, and the result followed. Other head coaches, in Shafer's position, would have foreseen the need and acted.

Same movie entering 2015. How obvious was it that our secondary was undersized and inexperienced? A different head coach would have been looking at JUCOs in the 2014 recruiting cycle for safeties with adequate size to play in the ACC. Shafer did not do that. He can't say Marrone should have left him with a better set of dbs.

 

[Gooorange]

Not a significant factor IMO. Look at Pitt. They were getting a new coach every month for awhile, hasn't impacted their program at all.

IMO a coaching transition does lead to a lack of depth on a team. In Syracuse.com article posted online this morning, Nate Mink makes reference to the 2013 recruiting class that "of the 22 players signed, just 4 regularly contribute by any significant measure". When a HC leaves after a bowl game (Marrone), the new guy is left scrambling to get bodies in the door, some kids de-commit based on coaching change, others may not fit the new scheme, then new coach gambles to fill scholarship quota...rarely works to the advantage of the program.

 

[qdawgg]

IMO a coaching transition does lead to a lack of depth on a team. In Syracuse.com article posted online this morning, Nate Mink makes reference to the 2013 recruiting class that "of the 22 players signed, just 4 regularly contribute by any significant measure". When a HC leaves after a bowl game (Marrone), the new guy is left scrambling to get bodies in the door, some kids de-commit based on coaching change, others may not fit the new scheme, then new coach gambles to fill scholarship quota...rarely works to the advantage of the program.

Not disagreeing with you completely. But Pitt is one example that it can be done and they have literally gone through significant coaching changes, regularly, while still retaining about the same level of play. SU is another example of how a new guy can be at a disadvantage. However, I don't know that you can say Shafer was in the same situation situation as a brand new coach. He was the DC, was an active recruiter, and knew the players on the team - it was a significantly much easier transition for him compared to a brand new coach coming in.

 

[tipphill]

This...in a nutshell.

It's also when Pitt started gaining the benefits of playing at Heinz Field.

We also stopped making upgrades in our facilities about 10 years before that while those schools were making serious upgrades.

We started losing about a half dozen recruits a year that used to choose Syracuse.

Over 10 years, that's 60 recruits.

There's your depth.

There's your problem.

your comment regarding our facilities was the key factor in our downfall---history repeated itself---it was the same at the end of the ben s. era---he could not recruit either. in fact they would go out of their way to avoid spending to much time in archbold with recruits..