zone The game has passed JB by

[Coach Orange]

Bacon is a scorer. Is he an athletic scorer? Does Bacon play defense? Again, Florida State has plenty of athletes. Isaac isn't the only one. and he played 28 minutes-3 more than his season average. Nobody plays them all. Was the fact he only played 28 the reason they were outrebounded, turned the ball over so much and shot so poorly? FSU didn't exploit the zone, obviously. Basketball is a game of runs. FSU outscored Syracuse by 10 in the 2nd half after being down by 18 at the half. And they lost. By 10.

I'm not being adamant that the defense was the reason we beat FSU. I'm adamant they didn't exploit our zone. Our defense was fantastic in the first half, without question, and our offense was excellent. We completely shut down FSU in the first half, even when Isaac was in the game. Why so adamant to refuse to give them credit?

Agree...our defense was really good in both games. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. But refusing the give the defense credit and trying to "lessen the value" of those wins seems weird, right?

Also, it seems obvious the game hasn't passed JB by, and he's not too old or mailing it in, wouldn't you now agree? Those were rediculous arguments that the original poster was poking fun at. He was spot on.

Weird? I guess that's the way one can look at it if the primary interest is to echo-chamber a "rah rah." Others try to be more objective, though, and look for concrete elements that contribute to a win or a loss.

That doesn't mean I haven't given the defense credit (you apparently have never read anything I have written here before), but it appears the fact that I have done so has been overlooked for the sake of keeping the zone mythology intact in the face of precise contexts.

I've given specific examples of how these teams didn't have the personnel to exploit the zone's issues as they've been demonstrated, or that said personnel was not available for stretches of games but, once available, exposed the flaws in our zone. In doing so, I have argued that rankings actually don't really tell the whole story--match-ups matter. North Carolina is an example of a team that currently presents a bad match-up. They are not the only team.

I have not said "Get rid of the zone--it doesn't work." I would argue that's why Coach Boeheim plays zone; he knows that most teams can't regularly field the personnel in terms of athletic playmakers needed to defeat the zone.

Point out a single athlete on Virginia that is more athletic than our top-three players. Having more of the better athletes seems to matter, at least to some extent, in a game where only five players per team are on the court at a time. DSJ for NC ST. is an athlete, and he hurt our zone. Fortunately, their defense was worse than ours, and our kids took advantage to get a nice road win. Our defense made enough stops to win the game, but I wouldn't say it was our "defense" against the Wolfpack that won the game. Coach Boeheim didn't exactly give it a ringing endorsement in the post-game presser, either. Virginia does not currently possess anyone close to DSJ's athleticism. Not by coincidence, the zone operated more effectively.

The disagreement seems to keep coming back to Bacon, who is a good, not great, athlete. Great athletes tend to affect games in more ways than one. He had four rebounds against us (slightly above, but just about, his season average--two of which were offensive rebounds), and zeroes in all other columns (though he did turn it over twice, so give the defense credit for those).

His season numbers don't support the claim that he is a great defender or playmaker. To praise our own player, White is essentially Bacon; he averages slightly more ppg, has a better effective fg%, averages almost one rebound more a game, and does about the same in the other stats. Do you consider White a "great athlete?" If Bacon is such a great athlete, he's not really using it to affect games unless we are going to consider White an equally great athlete. Many on this board consider White a good player (including me--I have written about how I enjoy watching him play elsewhere), but they don't consider him athletically "great." Bacon scores--that's it. So have lots of good-but-not-great athletes at this level.

Isaac returned to the court and scored 11 points in three minutes to start the second half. He also recorded four rebounds in the first three and a half minutes. He drew fouls and had an offensive rebound put-back. He also hit a three-pointer in that stretch. He wound up with 19 and 12 (three offensive), despite being forced to miss the last eight consecutive minutes of the first half. Could Isaac have helped their offense in that time? Will we ever know? Nope, but I would guess if he was on the floor, he'd make some difference.

College basketball is about match-ups, game location, and more than one end of the floor. At this point, I'm willing to agree to disagree. Have a good rest of your weekend.

 

[Coach Orange]

To be fair, Virginia's lack of athleticism had as much to do with the effectiveness of the zone as anything. They clearly lack speed off the dribble, which is what hurts the zone more than anything. They also don't have bigs that athletically play above the rim. There were very few lobs for dunks, which we've seen hurt us in other games.

Obviously not a hot take or anything, but that poster is clearly going out of their way to brand one of the most efficient offensive teams in the country (that made L'vlle's various zone configurations look silly) as inept, rather than acknowledging JB's zone and players in the zone made that super-efficient offense look inept for the entire 2nd half

Show me the great athletes that they have. I have shown concrete examples of things that have hurt our zone that Virginia could not do against it. Those precise examples show that the zone was more effective because of Virginia's lack of athletes who can exploit the flaws our zone has demonstrated previously.

No where did I say "let's lessen the value of our zone or our win." That's being added by those that didn't want an objective discussion of how that win occurred. I did, however, argue that match-ups often matter to the success or effectiveness of an aspect of the game in a single contest.

I would call your claim about Virginia's offense making Louisville look inept a tad hyperbolic. They scored 61 points and shot 25% from three. Perhaps their defense mattered to winning that game, and perhaps Louisville's personnel and how they matched-up mattered in that contest, too.

By the way, efficiency numbers are not considered wholly credible in coaching circles because they contain flaws that don't tell the whole story. Just throwing that out there since that seems to be the evidence for the claim to why athleticism doesn't matter when our zone works well.

Edit: For transparency's sake, I want to add that I did say that the value of top-ten wins is devalued some in the current era based on the frequency that such victories occur. Look how many happened just yesterday. However, I am not devaluing SU's wins in a vacuum. I'm applying that across the board, so SU's wins are as valuable as other teams' good wins. My analysis was explanatory in nature, not punitive to SU alone.

 

[DoctorBombay]

There is so much fail, on so many different levels in this thread- it's impossible to list them all.
I'll just say that personally, I have and have always had faith in JB to figure things out. The record more than speaks for itself.
In my adult lifetime, this year was probably the first where I feared a losing record and irrelevancy from MBB, and I'm in my mid-50's...think about that.
So, I looked with bemusement at those chicken-littles who forever seem destined to miss the forest for the trees. They're found in every fanbase, without exception.
It's important to remind ourselves, once again, that a bad year for us, for 40+ years now, has been a trip to the NIT, and NOT a losing record.
We've taken and continue to take JB for granted, and become spoiled and entitled. No, the game hasn't passed him by. It's the perspective of irrational, spoiled-brat, "I think, therefore I'm right", woe-is-us, nattering internet fans, that has. JMHO

 

[Cusefan0307]

I love how some of our own fans are ready to bury us even when we win games will make excuses for other teams when we beat them that they never would make if we lost. Comical.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

I've lost track of this whole thread. I frankly don't see anyone trying to "lessen the value" of the wins or diminish.

I do. The guy who used the words "lessen the value" in his post. The guy arguing that a very athletic Florida State team only has one athlete, and they only struggled because he was out for 8 minutes.


I think it is fair to point out that in the Florida St. game the defense was non-existent in the first 8-10 minutes of the 2H.

I think it's fair to point out our defense completely stymied a very athletic FSU in the first half to the point were we had an 18 point lead.

Yes, of course it was a great win for us but I think it is reasonable to say that FSU isn't a very elite team nor is Virginia.

Who is elite then?

The likelihood of either making the F4 or staying a Top 10 team in the polls is highly unlikely, IMO.

Why is that?

Virginia is clearly missing guys like Gill, Brogdon, and Toby.

They blew out Louisville on the road. Is Louisville elite? Virginia has the best defense in the country.

I think it is fair to ponder if he has been mailing it in with recruiting the past few years.

Yeah, he didn't recruit Top 25 kids. I think this absurd.

If Final 4s really matter to recruits why aren't players lining up in droves to come here.

Schools like Kentucky, Duke, UNC and Kansas are always going to get the top kids. Florida won 2 NC's. Why didn't kids line up to go there? Are kids lining up to play for Pitino?

It's fair to argue that we generally have had very mediocre bodies of work as a whole the past 3-4 years. The zone is the reason we got to F4s.

So it's also fair to point out that we've reached the FF twice in the last 4 years, instead of pretending they were an accident or didn't happen? That's not mediocre. Kansas has 0 FF's in the last 4 years.

Not the offense for sure. That's great. Very few, if any, ELITE recruits want to play zone 100%!

Is the zone the reason? Is Tyus Battle elite? Malachi Richardson? McCullough? Ennis? Rak? MCW? Dion Waiters? We're putting kids in the NBA, and getting under the radar kids like Jerami Grant, Tyler Lydon and Taurean Thompson, who are all better than their rankings.

That's pretty telling I think if a program gets to a F4s based on a style of D yet it is the one of the big reasons and deterrents for a program not getting the top recruits.

Yeah...there's nothing out there proving the zone is a deterrent for recruiting.


It's fair to ponder, in terms of the game passing JB by, why he won't ever try other defenses.

No, it's not. The guy just went to 2 FF's in 4 years. It's idiotic, and the facts prove it. We play zone. That's what we do.

I personally thought last year was the best coaching job I have ever seen from JB.

But now, less than a year later, the game has passed him by?

If we make the Tourney then it will even trump last year which would be truly incredible. But, personally, I want the Hopkins era to start ASAP and I'm not any less of a fan than you, sir.

Yeah...well..we know JB is a brilliant coach. JB may get to another Final Four again this year. The point is, writing off Boeheim 1/3 way through the season as too old, not passionate, mailing it in, or having the game passed him by is absurd. We don't know if Hopkins can coach yet.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

The fact is that we have been middle of the pack in the ACC since joining. 27-29 I believe since the Tyler Ennis miracle shot @ Pitt. You are fine then with this kind of performance as a whole moving forward? That would put us a bubble team every year most likely. Top recruits won't come to constant bubble programs.

The fact is we play in the toughest conference ever. We finished 2nd in the ACC in our first season. Then flamed out in the ACC and NCAAT. I'd rather finish 9th and go to FF.

 

[HOFCeluck]

The fact is we play in the toughest conference ever. We finished 2nd in the ACC in our first season. Then flamed out in the ACC and NCAAT. I'd rather finish 9th and go to FF.

Again, the final four was awesome last year, but kind of fool's gold if you're using it as a barometer for the program going forward.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

"Lessening the value" is your interpretation based upon your own thinking.

Not just me, right? Several have said the same.

In my view, pointing out technical and objective variables when breaking down a win or loss is fair & concrete, and it in no way "lessons" anything. However, the same as you voluntarily choose your train of thought, I, and others do as well.

You posted that because other top ten teams are losing to lesser teams really lessens the win, didn't you?

For what it's worth, JB himself stated in the FSU post game presser that Hamilton basically had the wrong lineup in the game during the first half, playing too many guys that shouldn't have been in there which contributed to our big lead at halftime. In the second half, JB stated, Hamilton went with only 6 guys he should've been playing all along in the first half as that was the requisite for success, proven by how quickly our 18 point halftime lead was down to 2.

Our defense stymied FSU completely in the first half. And FSU is very athletic. Correct?

What JB stated is an objective and technical observation, similar to what Coach Orange has mentioned as well. I don't think JB's remarks "lessened" the win for him anymore than Coach Orange, or for ones that may share the same sentiment.

JB said Virginia is the best defensive team in the nation.

Remember, you're the owner of your own thinking.

Remember, if you continue to minimize great win, others will think you have an agenda

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Again, the final four was awesome last year, but kind of fool's gold if you're using it as a barometer for the program going forward.

What about the Final Four in 2013?

 

[HOFCeluck]

What about the Final Four in 2013?

A great accomplishment that, again, doesn't tell you much about the state of the program in 2017.

 

[NineOneSeven]

The fact is we play in the toughest conference ever. We finished 2nd in the ACC in our first season. Then flamed out in the ACC and NCAAT. I'd rather finish 9th and go to FF.

What's more likely to happen- you get to the final four as a 1-3 seed or a 8+ seed?

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Weird? I guess that's the way one can look at it if the primary interest is to echo-chamber a "rah rah." Others try to be more objective, though, and look for concrete elements that contribute to a win or a loss.

Do objective people think beating FSU and Virginia were not great wins? Both were Top 10 teams.

That doesn't mean I haven't given the defense credit (you apparently have never read anything I have written here before), but it appears the fact that I have done so has been overlooked for the sake of keeping the zone mythology intact in the face of precise contexts.

What zone mythology? The zone hasn't been good for most of the season. But it was really good against FSU and UVA.

I've given specific examples of how these teams didn't have the personnel to exploit the zone's issues as they've been demonstrated, or that said personnel was not available for stretches of games but, once available, exposed the flaws in our zone.

No, you tried to say athletic teams exploit the zone. I pointed out FSU was very athletic and didn't. Then you tried to make the excuse that Jonothan Isaac missed 12 minutes in the game, and that's why they couldn't. It's a crazy argument, because FSU is loaded with athletes and couldn't solve the zone at all in the first half, despite all that athleticism. It seems like you're trying hard to lesson both wins, which is weird.

In doing so, I have argued that rankings actually don't really tell the whole story--match-ups matter. North Carolina is an example of a team that currently presents a bad match-up. They are not the only team.

Rankings aside, both FSU and Virginia have a lot of great wins. Both are clearly really good teams and we beat both.

I have not said "Get rid of the zone--it doesn't work." I would argue that's why Coach Boeheim plays zone; he knows that most teams can't regularly field the personnel in terms of athletic playmakers needed to defeat the zone.

Athletic playmakers like FSU has? Boston College killed us. Do they have better athletes?

DSJ for NC ST. is an athlete, and he hurt our zone.

They lost the game. He didn't score much, did he? 10 pts?

Fortunately, their defense was worse than ours, and our kids took advantage to get a nice road win. Our defense made enough stops to win the game, but I wouldn't say it was our "defense" against the Wolfpack that won the game.

I wouldn't either. We scored 100 pts.

Coach Boeheim didn't exactly give it a ringing endorsement in the post-game presser, either. Virginia does not currently possess anyone close to DSJ's athleticism. Not by coincidence, the zone operated more effectively.

Is Miami athletic? How about Pitt?

The disagreement seems to keep coming back to Bacon, who is a good, not great, athlete. Great athletes tend to affect games in more ways than one. He had four rebounds against us (slightly above, but just about, his season average--two of which were offensive rebounds), and zeroes in all other columns (though he did turn it over twice, so give the defense credit for those).

C'mon man. Bacon is pretty athletic, not to mention being a very big, physical guard. You're really reaching here. Also, that entire FSU team is athletic. Rediculous argument.

His season numbers don't support the claim that he is a great defender or playmaker. To praise our own player, White is essentially Bacon;

Crazy. Bacon is far more athletic than White.

Isaac returned to the court and scored 11 points in three minutes to start the second half. He also recorded four rebounds in the first three and a half minutes. He drew fouls and had an offensive rebound put-back. He also hit a three-pointer in that stretch. He wound up with 19 and 12 (three offensive), despite being forced to miss the last eight consecutive minutes of the first half. Could Isaac have helped their offense in that time? Will we ever know? Nope, but I would guess if he was on the floor, he'd make some difference.

So you think if Issac doens't miss 8 minutes, they don't get outrebounded, don't turn the ball over 15 times, and don't shoot 38%? This is too much. This is what I mean when I say you're going out of your way to discount the win.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

A great accomplishment that, again, doesn't tell you much about the state of the program in 2017.

Last year's FF does.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

What's more likely to happen- you get to the final four as a 1-3 seed or a 8+ seed?

3 seed, obviously. Kansas was a 1 seed last year? What was Kentucky? Duke?

 

[SoBeCuse]

The fact is we play in the toughest conference ever. We finished 2nd in the ACC in our first season. Then flamed out in the ACC and NCAAT. I'd rather finish 9th and go to FF.

We just have different opinions about the state of the program CURRENTLY and the trajectory moving forward. It's fine. It does not make any of us who disagree with you less of a bleeding Orange entity.

The likelihood of 9-9 teams making the Final 4, let alone the Tournament, is an unrealistic proposal and/or outlook to bet on. Again, this would put us on the bubble. I don't think any program or coach wants to be on the bubble constantly. Ask Seth Greenburg.

I'm not going to dive much more into recruiting since we just won't agree. I'm not sure what happened with Florida. Lots of injuries and some underachieving. But, they were getting big time players coming in shortly after those titles. Patric Young, Casey Prather, Calathes, Bradley Beal, Chris Walker, Parsons, etc. I guess they just didn't pan out except for Beal and Parsons. You can name the Malachi/Ennis/McCullough types but they aren't really elite talents, IMO. Bottom of the first rounders. Very true about the gems like Lydon and TT. But, it is only fair to also include the struggles in identifying and developing a PG since 2013. All of the recruiting misses and players who aren't even here as well. Again, I'm not any less of a fan just merely trying to objective and fair.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Last year's FF does.

Sure. We can totally make the final four as a mediocre team consistently... If the 2 and 3 in our region gets upset and we get a superhuman elite 8 performance.

Yes, very sustainable.

 

[Cusefan0307]

If we finish top four in the conference this year is the state of the program still bad?

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Show me the great athletes that they have. I have shown concrete examples of things that have hurt our zone that Virginia could not do against it. Those precise examples show that the zone was more effective because of Virginia's lack of athletes who can exploit the flaws our zone has demonstrated previously.

Who cares about great athletes? Did Villanova have better athletes than UNC last year? Virginia is a Top 10 team. Kentucky has elite athletes. Are they elite?

No where did I say "let's lessen the value of our zone or our win." That's being added by those that didn't want an objective discussion of how that win occurred. I did, however, argue that match-ups often matter to the success or effectiveness of an aspect of the game in a single contest.

I would call your claim about Virginia's offense making Louisville look inept a tad hyperbolic. They scored 61 points and shot 25% from three. Perhaps their defense mattered to winning that game, and perhaps Louisville's personnel and how they matched-up mattered in that contest, too.

Virginia has the best defense in the nation despite not being athletic? How do they crush athletic teams like Louisvlle and VT?[/QUOTE

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Sure. We can totally make the final four as a mediocre team consistently... If the 2 and 3 in our region gets upset and we get a superhuman elite 8 performance.

Yes, very sustainable.

Who said that was the business model going forward? It happened, and it wasn't luck. We were a pretty good team in 2013 as well. Or was that luck too? I'll take FF's over 30 wins in a lesser conference and a flameout in the NCAAT.

 

[tbonezone]

i'd MUCH rather be ranked top 20 going into the tourney and take my chances.

 

[Jack Hall]

Uk is arguably the most potent program in the nation the last 8 years. But theyve looked like a complete mess in losing 3 of last 4. I think im going to go read uks fan forum right now for a good chuckle. All depends on the timeframe you choose to focus on. In terms of trying to predict the future, few have that ability. Ie who would have predicted FF last year??

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

i'd MUCH rather be ranked top 20 going into the tourney and take my chances.

Like Duke, UK, Kansas, Virginia and Michigan State last year? I'd rather go to the FF.

 

[realorange]

A great accomplishment that, again, doesn't tell you much about the state of the program in 2017.

Looking pretty damn good right now!

 

[Jack Hall]

If we finish top four in the conference this year is the state of the program still bad?

Yep probably a good idea to let this season and this years recruiting class conclude before we make any grand pronouncements...imo

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Uk is arguably the most potent program in the nation the last 8 years. But theyve looked like a complete mess in losing 3 of last 4. I think im going to go read uks fan forum right now for a good chuckle. All depends on the timeframe you choose to focus on. In terms of trying to predict the future, few have that ability. Ie who would have predicted FF last year??

Kids are lining up to play at UK, and they haven't lit the world on fire. Same with Duke and Michigan State. Those were the top 3 recruiting classes last year. But there's still a month left. Too early to write teams off.