zone The game has passed JB by

[MarketCuse]

he did it after Fla St too

There seems to be an agenda on this board by a select few posters who must be riding on Hopkins jock strap. I don't understand it! Were they just too vocal during our slide this year and are now pouting with damaged ego's or is there hidden friction between hop and JB and we are seeing HOP's minions? I'm guessing its just spoiled brats.

Not too long ago we were a regular high level program who required a rebuilding year or two. These last several years (a decade or so) we have become elite and a handful of these anti-JB posters are starting to sound like the ignorant egocentric fans we hate from other elite programs.

Our run last year was as impressive a coaching job as you will find. Year after year with all kinds of adversity our staff is still putting things together to remain an elite-level program.

Watching these ignorant spoiled brat pissants ooze out negativity against our own team is I suppose one of the downsides of our re-emergence as an elite program.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

I wrote about that last week. They did. Once their best athlete returned to the court after sitting out the last eight minutes of the first half with breathing problems, they erased 16 points off an 18-point lead. We just made enough free throws down the stretch to hold on. Give the players credit for doing so.

They lost the game by 10. Shot 38% from the floor, got outrebounded, had 9 shots blocked, and had 15 turnovers. Bacon is athletic right? Isaac isn't their only athlete. He played all but 12 minutes of the game.

 

[MarketCuse]

Agreed. Perhaps a better way to enjoy is to not attack others on the board when we win a big game.

I wasn't and am not in the camp at which you seemed to aim this thread. I have actually defended Coach Boeheim many times on this board.

However, there seems to be an awful lot of bullying on this board lately, and I find that sad. I also find that a lot of arguments are made and then not supported with concrete evidence, but the arguers expect the readers to accept the opinions as fact. If they don't, they are somehow "not real fans."

I think a well-rounded and reasoned examination of the topic being discussed is far better than provocative thread-starters. That's all I will say on it.

I genuinely hope you enjoy the rest of your weekend, Dasher.

I often find that whiny people complain about bullies, while the rest of the world just scrapes the off their shoe and goes about their day. The world needs BOTH duller arrows AND thicker skin it's a homeostatic domain.

Whining about deficiencies after a win and whining about bullies is nothing if not consistent. Have you considered the possibility that your actions may be influencing how others interact with you?

 

[Coach Orange]

They lost the game.

Yup--at least in part because their best, most athletic player was sidelined for several first-half minutes that he could have spent hurting our zone like he did in the second half, allowing us to build a huge lead that we almost gave up.

Again, the offense down the stretch and the free-throws played a big role. Coach Hamilton's defensive strategy wasn't very good (they never forced Gillon to score on his dribble drives outside of once at the very end of the game, allowing him to simply be a passer), and SU took advantage of it. The kids (especially Gillon) deserve praise for exploiting that.

 

[Coach Orange]

I often find that whiny people complain about bullies, while the rest of the world just scrapes the . . . . off their shoe and goes about their day. The world needs BOTH duller arrows AND thicker skin it's a homeostatic domain.

Whining about deficiencies after a win and whining about bullies is nothing if not consistent. Have you considered the possibility that your actions may be influencing how others interact with you?

Wow. What a world view. This is your 44th post here? I'll be sure not to read a 45th. Good luck to you.

 

[MarketCuse]

The point is, the game hasn't passed the zone by. It isn't now, and never was the reason why the team played so badly for so much of the season. As I said back then and will reiterate now, it has always been, and will always be about whether the players are able to play it well enough. You can argue if the kids ever will be good enough, but that usually hasn't been the argument.

The kids showed today (in the second half, at least) as they have showed in spurts over the past two weeks, that when they work hard enough, stay active, and most importantly play the zone the way JB wants them too, they are capable of competing with and even beating the top teams in the nation.

As we all know, SU isn't capable of competing for the top players in the country, and never have been able to do so consistently. By playing the zone, it has allowed a level of consistency that is unrivaled. And, given the right players, even a chance to compete for the championship at times.

Well that is certainly news to me... have you seen the draft boards over the last several years?

I don't understand what is going through the heads of some SU fans. Inferiority complexes and a lack of perspective are colliding to create a twilight zone of insanity. This isn't directed at you, but this program was just sanctioned and we still made the final four for crying out loud.

We have had an excellent run the last several years and JB has overcome early departures and injuries by the handful while still kicking serious ass.

I'm baffled by the negativity as to the state of our program. So we are going to have a bad recruiting year next year? Who gives a , happens! Take a step back from your obsession and you will gain some perspective. It wasn't long ago we had a bad recruiting year every two years.

 

[MarketCuse]

Wow. What a world view. This is your 44th post here? I'll be sure not to read a 45th. Good luck to you.

To you as well, give peace a chance!

 

[CaptainJ]

There seems to be an agenda on this board by a select few posters who must be riding on Hopkins jock strap. I don't understand it! Were they just too vocal during our slide this year and are now pouting with damaged ego's or is there hidden friction between hop and JB and we are seeing HOP's minions? I'm guessing its just spoiled brats.

Not too long ago we were a regular high level program who required a rebuilding year or two. These last several years (a decade or so) we have become elite and a handful of these anti-JB posters are starting to sound like the ignorant egocentric fans we hate from other elite programs.

Our run last year was as impressive a coaching job as you will find. Year after year with all kinds of adversity our staff is still putting things together to remain an elite-level program.

Watching these ignorant spoiled brat pissants ooze out negativity against our own team is I suppose one of the downsides of our re-emergence as an elite program.

(To warn anyone, this post of mine rambles, I am not sure if anyone other than mods will read it, being they have to, lol. I think I tried to shift focus away from the entitled fans onto the team and the rest of us, if you want a summary. It's the mantle Ottoingrotto spoke of, and sometimes I really try, regardless of the outcome!)

I liked your post not because I agree with everything, but there certianly seemed to be some truth in it. Ive seen years of threads arguing about how we should be included as "elite" or "blue bloods". I think this season humbled some of those folks, but the last few games have made most of us grateful. I'm not going to seek out who is in a hurry to get rid of JB, but am going to choose to focus on the joy that's currently available to us.

I mean is it all JB? Did he inspire Gillon to go @p3$h ? To nail the crazy and heroic 3 in response to the opponent's crazy and heroic 3? Or any number of plays toward the end of today's game, could have had it going the other way...and we could be having very different conversations. It is what it is though, and all of these coaches have players that at times excecute out of their minds(how about Dennis Smith Jr on that Globetrotteresque spin shot?).

Im not exactly sure what I'm trying to say, other than how arbitrary all of this can be at times...including BBallBeadle 's article about the scientific aspect of energy (anyone who saw the first McGregor/Diaz fight might understand why McGregor kept talking about energy after his loss...it wasn't in the common usage of the term), of forces we can't see of often fully understand. I imagine coaching and inspiration effects these energies and outcomes. Sometimes these type of things can be referred to as "magic", and certain folks in different professions seem to possess it in different amounts. RITUALS/BELIEFS can lead to their manifestation, and I believe Boeheim's zone is part of it. You really can compare it to a "religion", and I think it goes along with Beadle's article.

No, I am not drunk nor high(other than "energy shots"!!), but I like if folks can look at as many angles as possible...especially being that's what these boards are greared for. Market, I think you're at least partially right about the spoiled/entitled mentality that has fomented here, but I still see it as less jerkish than some other teams' fans. I certainly dont see it in everyone, and even in those whom I do see it(I rarely pay attention to names or even remember who says what), I like to gently tease. Maybe there is something wrong with me if I take pleasure in seeing the former Big East flip off the posters on here who revel in calling the people who beat us "mid majors", which really is a concept very similar to racism, mocking something that cant be changed/controlled. Those teams exacted revenge on these egos this season. They won their "superbowls", at least. I'd love if we can win ours, whatever it may be this season(I'd settle for Duke, lol). Regardless who is coach next year, I hope we can appreciate the heck out of the coach and team we have this year. I also hope the aforementioned will be like Eckhart Tolle and appreciate the sacred Now, and forget about the earlier season.

JB and his players are putting out in heroic fashion right now, doing at least enough to keep us in the discussion(and make folks with a guilty conscience like Andy Katz make wild proclamations! lol).

JB shocked the board when he called last season (his) BEST(before correcting himself with the NC season). This season still has the opportunity to surpass it with the stepping stones recently taken. Just get us a ticket to the dance, and let JB and this team work it's magic. Let's embrace the anxiety and rename it "excitement". It's my wish we can all rally around a team that I think has every bit a possibility to be even more special than last year's, byt JB's own definition!!! Let's go Orange!!!!!!!

 

[SoBeCuse]

Wow. What a world view. This is your 44th post here? I'll be sure not to read a 45th. Good luck to you.

Don't waste your time Coach. I'd chalk it up to a reading comprehension issue in this thread. You take the time to post accurate and articulate recaps of strategy on both sides going inside and beyond the box score and stats. There are reasons for the results we saw in Florida St and UVA wins. I can only guess it comes down to reading comprehension if posters are claiming you are undermining a win and/or not giving the team credit.

 

[Coach Orange]

They lost the game by 10. Shot 38% from the floor, got outrebounded, had 9 shots blocked, and had 15 turnovers. Bacon is athletic right? Isaac isn't their only athlete. He played all but 12 minutes of the game.

Bacon is a scorer. He doesn't affect games in any other way. He still scored 19, but he is not a superior athlete that changes games beyond scoring. His season numbers show this.

Again, nothing you have added in terms of the stats suggest that their offensive performance couldn't have been improved if they had Isaac's services all game. In fact, they were far worse percentages-wise before Isaac returned. Furthermore, we did hit several fts down the stretch to finish with a 10-point victory. The defense was good in the first half when Isaac wasn't there, and that helped us win. Doesn't change the fact that the same defense that helped build the lead all but gave it up. Basketball is played on two ends, and our offense carried the day when we needed it. Florida St. couldn't get a stop when they needed to late.

I'm not trying to be a jerk at all; I'm just not sure why the adamant argument that it was all because of our defense that we won. :noidea:

 

[MarketCuse]

(To warn anyone, this post of mine rambles, I am not sure if anyone other than mods will read it, being they have to, lol. I think I tried to shift focus away from the entitled fans onto the team and the rest of us, if you want a summary. It's the mantle Ottoingrotto spoke of, and sometimes I really try, regardless of the outcome!)

I liked your post not because I agree with everything, but there certianly seemed to be some truth in it. Ive seen years of threads arguing about how we should be included as "elite" or "blue bloods". I think this season humbled some of those folks, but the last few games have made most of us grateful. I'm not going to seek out who is in a hurry to get rid of JB, but am going to choose to focus on the joy that's currently available to us.

I mean is it all JB? Did he inspire Gillon to go @p3$h . . ? To nail the crazy and heroic 3 in response to the opponent's crazy and heroic 3? Or any number of plays toward the end of today's game, could have had it going the other way...and we could be having very different conversations. It is what it is though, and all of these coaches have players that at times excecute out of their minds(how about Dennis Smith Jr on that Globetrotteresque spin shot?).

Im not exactly sure what I'm trying to say, other than how arbitrary all of this can be at times...including BBallBeadle 's article about the scientific aspect of energy (anyone who saw the first McGregor/Diaz fight might understand why McGregor kept talking about energy after his loss...it wasn't in the common usage of the term), of forces we can't see of often fully understand. I imagine coaching and inspiration effects these energies and outcomes. Sometimes these type of things can be referred to as "magic", and certain folks in different professions seem to possess it in different amounts. RITUALS/BELIEFS can lead to their manifestation, and I believe Boeheim's zone is part of it. You really can compare it to a "religion", and I think it goes along with Beadle's article.

No, I am not drunk nor high(other than "energy shots"!!), but I like if folks can look at as many angles as possible...especially being that's what these boards are greared for. Market, I think you're at least partially right about the spoiled/entitled mentality that has fomented here, but I still see it as less jerkish than some other teams' fans. I certainly dont see it in everyone, and even in those whom I do see it(I rarely pay attention to names or even remember who says what), I like to gently tease. Maybe there is something wrong with me if I take pleasure in seeing the former Big East flip off the posters on here who revel in calling the people who beat us "mid majors", which really is a concept very similar to racism, mocking something that cant be changed/controlled. Those teams exacted revenge on these egos this season. They won their "superbowls", at least. I'd love if we can win ours, whatever it may be this season(I'd settle for Duke, lol). Regardless who is coach next year, I hope we can appreciate the heck out of the coach and team we have this year. I also hope the aforementioned will be like Eckhart Tolle and appreciate the sacred Now, and forget about the earlier season.

JB and his players are putting out in heroic fashion right now, doing at least enough to keep us in the discussion(and make folks with a guilty conscience like Andy Katz make wild proclamations! lol).

JB shocked the board when he called last season (his) BEST(before correcting himself with the NC season). This season still has the opportunity to surpass it with the stepping stones recently taken. Just get us a ticket to the dance, and let JB and this team work it's magic. Let's embrace the anxiety and rename it "excitement". It's my wish we can all rally around a team that I think has every bit a possibility to be even more special than last year's, byt JB's own definition!!! Let's go Orange!!

I love it! I know most people here don't fall into this characterization but it was just an observation from a fan who hasn't been on here in a long while. Mostly I was referencing off-the-board type people although I was annoyed by an undertone of negativity towards JB on here last night as well.

When I was an annoying pissant myself, I used to come on this board and lambaste the zone and JB, frequently in fact. But that was before I grew up and mostly before I absorbed enough knowledge to understand the complexities of our defense and the way it impacts opposition strategy.

I used to hate the zone! But I know that JB is a terrific coach and he often does much more with much less. I love JAB even with all his flaws, I am wise enough to now know those are our flaws... The entire SU basketball community's. Point being Jimmy's complete loyalty is un-phased and perhaps his most important characteristic. He walked onto SU's campus when he was 17 years old and he never left. He walked up that hill before the dome existed and before our program had much more than a couple impressive years out of 60 or so and without his steady leadership and personal connections we would never be even a shadow of what we are today.

The idea that we will luck out twice in a row with Hopkins being an elite level coach from the get go is a pipe dream IMO. Sure we can hope, we can get ansy and anticipate a bright future but we cannot count on anything and above all else we cannot be disloyal to the man who gave his entire existence to Syracuse Basketball.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Bacon is a scorer. He doesn't affect games in any other way. He still scored 19, but he is not a superior athlete that changes games beyond scoring. His season numbers show this.

Again, nothing you have added in terms of the stats suggest that their offensive performance couldn't have been improved if they had Isaac's services all game. In fact, they were far worse percentages-wise before Isaac returned. Furthermore, we did hit several fts down the stretch to finish with a 10-point victory. The defense was good in the first half when Isaac wasn't there, and that helped us win. Doesn't change the fact that the same defense that helped build the lead all but gave it up. Basketball is played on two ends, and our offense carried the day when we needed it. Florida St. couldn't get a stop when they needed to late.

I'm not trying to be a jerk at all; I'm just not sure why the adamant argument that it was all because of our defense that we won. :noidea:

Bacon is a scorer. Is he an athletic scorer? Does Bacon play defense? Again, Florida State has plenty of athletes. Isaac isn't the only one. and he played 28 minutes-3 more than his season average. Nobody plays them all. Was the fact he only played 28 the reason they were outrebounded, turned the ball over so much and shot so poorly? FSU didn't exploit the zone, obviously. Basketball is a game of runs. FSU outscored Syracuse by 10 in the 2nd half after being down by 18 at the half. And they lost. By 10.

I'm not being adamant that the defense was the reason we beat FSU. I'm adamant they didn't exploit our zone. Our defense was fantastic in the first half, without question, and our offense was excellent. We completely shut down FSU in the first half, even when Isaac was in the game. Why so adamant to refuse to give them credit?

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

There are reasons for the results we saw in Florida St and UVA wins.

Agree...our defense was really good in both games. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. But refusing the give the defense credit and trying to "lessen the value" of those wins seems weird, right?

Also, it seems obvious the game hasn't passed JB by, and he's not too old or mailing it in, wouldn't you now agree? Those were rediculous arguments that the original poster was poking fun at. He was spot on.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Well that is certainly news to me... have you seen the draft boards over the last several years?

I don't understand what is going through the heads of some SU fans. Inferiority complexes and a lack of perspective are colliding to create a twilight zone of insanity. This isn't directed at you, but this program was just sanctioned and we still made the final four for crying out loud.

We have had an excellent run the last several years and JB has overcome early departures and injuries by the handful while still kicking serious ass.

I'm baffled by the negativity as to the state of our program. So we are going to have a bad recruiting year next year? Who gives a . . . . , . . . . happens! Take a step back from your obsession and you will gain some perspective. It wasn't long ago we had a bad recruiting year every two years.

Excellent post. People lose sight of the fact we have had early departures (because we recruit so well) and had to deal with NCAA sanctions, not to mention playing in a loaded conference. 2 Final Fours in 4 years are not enough for some. Have to win the ACC every year. When was the last time Arizona or Kansas played in a Final Four?

 

[SBU72]

(To warn anyone, this post of mine rambles, I am not sure if anyone other than mods will read it, being they have to, lol. I think I tried to shift focus away from the entitled fans onto the team and the rest of us, if you want a summary. It's the mantle Ottoingrotto spoke of, and sometimes I really try, regardless of the outcome!)

I liked your post not because I agree with everything, but there certianly seemed to be some truth in it. Ive seen years of threads arguing about how we should be included as "elite" or "blue bloods". I think this season humbled some of those folks, but the last few games have made most of us grateful. I'm not going to seek out who is in a hurry to get rid of JB, but am going to choose to focus on the joy that's currently available to us.

I mean is it all JB? Did he inspire Gillon to go @p3$h . . ? To nail the crazy and heroic 3 in response to the opponent's crazy and heroic 3? Or any number of plays toward the end of today's game, could have had it going the other way...and we could be having very different conversations. It is what it is though, and all of these coaches have players that at times excecute out of their minds(how about Dennis Smith Jr on that Globetrotteresque spin shot?).

!!

A coach never really wins ANY game. He can only put his team/players in position to win. If he does this and they perform, and they do win, then he is successful. If he does and either the players can't or don't perform, then they will most likely lose. If he doesn't and the players are able to over come that, then they could win.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Agree...our defense was really good in both games. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. But refusing the give the defense credit and trying to "lessen the value" of those wins seems weird, right?

Also, it seems obvious the game hasn't passed JB by, and he's not too old or mailing it in, wouldn't you now agree? Those were rediculous arguments that the original poster was poking fun at. He was spot on.

I've lost track of this whole thread. I frankly don't see anyone trying to "lessen the value" of the wins or diminish. I think it is fair to point out that in the Florida St. game the defense was non-existent in the first 8-10 minutes of the 2H. The game became a game as quickly as it hit NC St. the other day. We were desperately holding on and made some free throws and some great plays at the end. It is fair to point out that Isaac having to go out frequently was important. It's fair to point out that Florida St. had some athletic but unskilled guys in the paint who couldn't finish. Their PG has not been able to contain anybody. Yes, of course it was a great win for us but I think it is reasonable to say that FSU isn't a very elite team nor is Virginia. The likelihood of either making the F4 or staying a Top 10 team in the polls is highly unlikely, IMO. Virginia is clearly missing guys like Gill, Brogdon, and Toby. They are very good and very well coached but I don't see many difference makers on that team. Again, this is NOT diminishing our W. To come back like we did against a slow paced and fundamentally sound team like UVA was impressive. Our defense had way more to do with the UVA win than FSU, I think. We still have work to do to make the Tourney, incidentally.

I think it is fair to ponder if he has been mailing it in with recruiting the past few years. Francis and others have documented our struggles even pre-sanctions with pieces not fitting, recruiting misses, and such. If Final 4s really matter to recruits why aren't players lining up in droves to come here. It's fair to argue that we generally have had very mediocre bodies of work as a whole the past 3-4 years. The zone is the reason we got to F4s. Not the offense for sure. That's great. Very few, if any, ELITE recruits want to play zone 100%! That's pretty telling I think if a program gets to a F4s based on a style of D yet it is the one of the big reasons and deterrents for a program not getting the top recruits. It's fair to ponder, in terms of the game passing JB by, why he won't ever try other defenses. As far as in game coaching and passion for the game I have never thought he mailed it in. Maybe in a couple of blowouts but what's the guy supposed to do when the team gives up. Anyone can tell even from a single presser his passion and knowledge of the game. Can we question some concepts? Of course we can. I personally thought last year was the best coaching job I have ever seen from JB. If we make the Tourney then it will even trump last year which would be truly incredible. But, personally, I want the Hopkins era to start ASAP and I'm not any less of a fan than you, sir.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Excellent post. People lose sight of the fact we have had early departures (because we recruit so well) and had to deal with NCAA sanctions, not to mention playing in a loaded conference. 2 Final Fours in 4 years are not enough for some. Have to win the ACC every year. When was the last time Arizona or Kansas played in a Final Four?

Claiming like fans and posters such as myself expect us to win the ACC every year is ludicrous. The fact is that we have been middle of the pack in the ACC since joining. 27-29 I believe since the Tyler Ennis miracle shot @ Pitt. You are fine then with this kind of performance as a whole moving forward? That would put us a bubble team every year most likely. Top recruits won't come to constant bubble programs.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Excellent post. People lose sight of the fact we have had early departures (because we recruit so well) and had to deal with NCAA sanctions, not to mention playing in a loaded conference. 2 Final Fours in 4 years are not enough for some. Have to win the ACC every year. When was the last time Arizona or Kansas played in a Final Four?

If you think that making a tourney as a ten seed (and a controversial one at that) and then getting the benefit of a 15/2 upset followed up by playing an 11 seed mid major in the sweet sixteen is sustainable, then good on you.

And please dispense with the "win the ACC every year" strawman or take to Syracuse.com where logic like that would make you a top tier poster.

 

[pearl31]

And please dispense with the "win the ACC every year" strawman or take to Syracuse.com where logic like that would make you a top tier poster.

Know what would be even more distinguished at syracuse.com? Discounting a terrific 2nd half defensive performance (the best of the year) by saying it doesn't really count because Virginia isn't athletic.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Know what would be even more distinguished at syracuse.com? Discounting a terrific 2nd half defensive performance (the best of the year) by saying it doesn't really count because Virginia isn't athletic.

Good thing no one is doing that.

 

[pearl31]

Good thing no one is doing that.

You might want to read the first page or so of this thread.

 

[HOFCeluck]

You might want to read the first page or so of this thread.

I did.

Please point out where Coach O (or anyone for that matter) is "discounting a terrific 2nd half defensive performance."

Then we can compare that to the "you won't be happy unless we win the ACC every year" classic hot take.

 

[pearl31]

To be fair, Virginia's lack of athleticism had as much to do with the effectiveness of the zone as anything. They clearly lack speed off the dribble, which is what hurts the zone more than anything. They also don't have bigs that athletically play above the rim. There were very few lobs for dunks, which we've seen hurt us in other games.

Obviously not a hot take or anything, but that poster is clearly going out of their way to brand one of the most efficient offensive teams in the country (that made L'vlle's various zone configurations look silly) as inept, rather than acknowledging JB's zone and players in the zone made that super-efficient offense look inept for the entire 2nd half

 

[orangecuse]

Agree...our defense was really good in both games. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. But refusing the give the defense credit and trying to "lessen the value" of those wins seems weird, right?

Also, it seems obvious the game hasn't passed JB by, and he's not too old or mailing it in, wouldn't you now agree? Those were rediculous arguments that the original poster was poking fun at. He was spot on.

"Lessening the value" is your interpretation based upon your own thinking. In my view, pointing out technical and objective variables when breaking down a win or loss is fair & concrete, and it in no way "lessons" anything. However, the same as you voluntarily choose your train of thought, I, and others do as well.

For what it's worth, JB himself stated in the FSU post game presser that Hamilton basically had the wrong lineup in the game during the first half, playing too many guys that shouldn't have been in there which contributed to our big lead at halftime. In the second half, JB stated, Hamilton went with only 6 guys he should've been playing all along in the first half as that was the requisite for success, proven by how quickly our 18 point halftime lead was down to 2.

What JB stated is an objective and technical observation, similar to what Coach Orange has mentioned as well. I don't think JB's remarks "lessened" the win for him anymore than Coach Orange, or for ones that may share the same sentiment.

Remember, you're the owner of your own thinking.

 

[pearl31]

Remember, you're the owner of your own thinking

that is deep, profound stuff - invaluable really