zone The game has passed JB by | Page 6 | Syracusefan.com

zone The game has passed JB by

To be fair, Virginia's lack of athleticism had as much to do with the effectiveness of the zone as anything. They clearly lack speed off the dribble, which is what hurts the zone more than anything. They also don't have bigs that athletically play above the rim. There were very few lobs for dunks, which we've seen hurt us in other games.

Obviously not a hot take or anything, but that poster is clearly going out of their way to brand one of the most efficient offensive teams in the country (that made L'vlle's various zone configurations look silly) as inept, rather than acknowledging JB's zone and players in the zone made that super-efficient offense look inept for the entire 2nd half

To start off, before I get blasted by the long time posters, I mostly lurk now a days. I do want to make a comment before I fall back into my hole. I don't see how anyone who watched the game doesn't at least see the point he is trying to make. I didn't take his assessment as a dig to Virginia, but more of a reasoning behigh their struggles and drought. If Virginia had a big who was remotely decent inside the high low was available all day. They continued to float a guy into the middle as well who couldn't make a play, including numerous time where the ball went right between his hands. Now I will also give credit to the coaching staff in the second half and pushing up defensively, running the shooters off the line and forcing them to try to score in other ways, like dribble drives and kick outs which forced Virginia into turnovers.

I think in general most of us are on here to talk basketball, but it does seem incredibly hard at times when people refuse to accept differences of opinions or at least acknowledge they aren't correct all the time.
 
Yep probably a good idea to let this season and this years recruiting class conclude before we make any grand pronouncements...imo

I'm not making any grand announcements, but it's odd to be complaining about the state of the program when we currently look like one of the best teams in the conference. I also know at the end of the day we will find talented players to fill out the roster. We always do.
 
To start off, before I get blasted by the long time posters, I mostly lurk now a days. I do want to make a comment before I fall back into my hole. I don't see how anyone who watched the game doesn't at least see the point he is trying to make. I didn't take his assessment as a dig to Virginia, but more of a reasoning behigh their struggles and drought. If Virginia had a big who was remotely decent inside the high low was available all day. They continued to float a guy into the middle as well who couldn't make a play, including numerous time where the ball went right between his hands. Now I will also give credit to the coaching staff in the second half and pushing up defensively, running the shooters off the line and forcing them to try to score in other ways, like dribble drives and kick outs which forced Virginia into turnovers.

I think in general most of us are on here to talk basketball, but it does seem incredibly hard at times when people refuse to accept differences of opinions or at least acknowledge they aren't correct all the time.

I didn't think the high/low was that open yesterday compared to other games we have played. I thought the back line, Lydon specifically had their best defensive game of the year and cut off the rim the entire second half.
 
To start off, before I get blasted by the long time posters, I mostly lurk now a days. I do want to make a comment before I fall back into my hole. I don't see how anyone who watched the game doesn't at least see the point he is trying to make. I didn't take his assessment as a dig to Virginia, but more of a reasoning behigh their struggles and drought. If Virginia had a big who was remotely decent inside the high low was available all day. They continued to float a guy into the middle as well who couldn't make a play, including numerous time where the ball went right between his hands. Now I will also give credit to the coaching staff in the second half and pushing up defensively, running the shooters off the line and forcing them to try to score in other ways, like dribble drives and kick outs which forced Virginia into turnovers.

I think in general most of us are on here to talk basketball, but it does seem incredibly hard at times when people refuse to accept differences of opinions or at least acknowledge they aren't correct all the time.
Thats a fair point and a good perspective! But i think otoh it is missing the fact there just arent any perfect teams this year. Any warts uva has, the other top ten teams also likely have. Just different types of warts. Villanova is as good of a team as i have seen this year in terms of being ranked supposed #1. Virginia had them beat at villanova. And to me that is the point of yesterdays game where as fans we should stay positive. Ie, this year, if you can beat Virginia AND keep playing like that on a consistent basis (big if)...you can play with anyone in the country. Go Cuse
 
I'm not making any grand announcements, but it's odd to be complaining about the state of the program when we currently look like one of the best teams in the conference. I also know at the end of the day we will find talented players to fill out the roster. We always do.
Wasnt referring to you. I was referring to the people predicting the future is bleak
 
To start off, before I get blasted by the long time posters, I mostly lurk now a days. I do want to make a comment before I fall back into my hole. I don't see how anyone who watched the game doesn't at least see the point he is trying to make. I didn't take his assessment as a dig to Virginia, but more of a reasoning behigh their struggles and drought. If Virginia had a big who was remotely decent inside the high low was available all day. They continued to float a guy into the middle as well who couldn't make a play, including numerous time where the ball went right between his hands. Now I will also give credit to the coaching staff in the second half and pushing up defensively, running the shooters off the line and forcing them to try to score in other ways, like dribble drives and kick outs which forced Virginia into turnovers.

I think in general most of us are on here to talk basketball, but it does seem incredibly hard at times when people refuse to accept differences of opinions or at least acknowledge they aren't correct all the time.

Virginia exploited the zone with great passing in the first half. They are a great passing team. They also shoot the ball well from 3, and surely hit a bunch. JB and the staff did a nice job adjusting on D in the second half, and without question the 2-3 was very good in the second half. Their lack of athleticism didn't prevent them from carving up the zone in the first half.
 
Weird? I guess that's the way one can look at it if the primary interest is to echo-chamber a "rah rah." Others try to be more objective, though, and look for concrete elements that contribute to a win or a loss.

That doesn't mean I haven't given the defense credit (you apparently have never read anything I have written here before), but it appears the fact that I have done so has been overlooked for the sake of keeping the zone mythology intact in the face of precise contexts.

I've given specific examples of how these teams didn't have the personnel to exploit the zone's issues as they've been demonstrated, or that said personnel was not available for stretches of games but, once available, exposed the flaws in our zone. In doing so, I have argued that rankings actually don't really tell the whole story--match-ups matter. North Carolina is an example of a team that currently presents a bad match-up. They are not the only team.

I have not said "Get rid of the zone--it doesn't work." I would argue that's why Coach Boeheim plays zone; he knows that most teams can't regularly field the personnel in terms of athletic playmakers needed to defeat the zone.

Point out a single athlete on Virginia that is more athletic than our top-three players. Having more of the better athletes seems to matter, at least to some extent, in a game where only five players per team are on the court at a time. DSJ for NC ST. is an athlete, and he hurt our zone. Fortunately, their defense was worse than ours, and our kids took advantage to get a nice road win. Our defense made enough stops to win the game, but I wouldn't say it was our "defense" against the Wolfpack that won the game. Coach Boeheim didn't exactly give it a ringing endorsement in the post-game presser, either. Virginia does not currently possess anyone close to DSJ's athleticism. Not by coincidence, the zone operated more effectively.

The disagreement seems to keep coming back to Bacon, who is a good, not great, athlete. Great athletes tend to affect games in more ways than one. He had four rebounds against us (slightly above, but just about, his season average--two of which were offensive rebounds), and zeroes in all other columns (though he did turn it over twice, so give the defense credit for those).

His season numbers don't support the claim that he is a great defender or playmaker. To praise our own player, White is essentially Bacon; he averages slightly more ppg, has a better effective fg%, averages almost one rebound more a game, and does about the same in the other stats. Do you consider White a "great athlete?" If Bacon is such a great athlete, he's not really using it to affect games unless we are going to consider White an equally great athlete. Many on this board consider White a good player (including me--I have written about how I enjoy watching him play elsewhere), but they don't consider him athletically "great." Bacon scores--that's it. So have lots of good-but-not-great athletes at this level.

Isaac returned to the court and scored 11 points in three minutes to start the second half. He also recorded four rebounds in the first three and a half minutes. He drew fouls and had an offensive rebound put-back. He also hit a three-pointer in that stretch. He wound up with 19 and 12 (three offensive), despite being forced to miss the last eight consecutive minutes of the first half. Could Isaac have helped their offense in that time? Will we ever know? Nope, but I would guess if he was on the floor, he'd make some difference.

College basketball is about match-ups, game location, and more than one end of the floor. At this point, I'm willing to agree to disagree. Have a good rest of your weekend. :)


Watch the highlights.

Clemson vs. Florida State - Game Summary - February 5, 2017 - ESPN

FSU is VERY atheltic and it's not just Isaac.
 
I didn't think the high/low was that open yesterday compared to other games we have played. I thought the back line, Lydon specifically had their best defensive game of the year and cut off the rim the entire second half.

Yep, they had a lob for a dunk in the 1st half, a sort of no look from Perrantes I think?. After that Lydon and co, adjusted and shut the tap off.
 
I didn't think the high/low was that open yesterday compared to other games we have played. I thought the back line, Lydon specifically had their best defensive game of the year and cut off the rim the entire second half.

Yea, I shouldn't discredit the defensive performance Lydon had in the middle. He was very solid. What also allowed Lydon to push a bit more was the empty trips Virginia had when getting their big the ball in the gray area. The bigs for Virginia were very uncomfortable finishing around the rim. Credit the wings collapsing and applying pressure, but generally many of those will result in dunks or finishes. The one play that really sticks out is when the starting center for Virginia tried to reverse a lay up and brought ball down below his waist and threw up an air ball. They lost any confidence throwing them ball down there.

It's great as a fan to see the progress this team has made. The chemistry is showing now. JB is making great adjustments in games and has made great adjustments on players minutes. Getting away from the pick and roll yesterday was huge and really opened the offense. Putting his players in positions to score points and got away from the high ball screen which Virginia was hedging on and trapping.
 
If Virginia had a big who was remotely decent inside the high low was available all day. They continued to float a guy into the middle as well who couldn't make a play, including numerous time where the ball went right between his hands.
And this is all because Virginia isn't athletic. Got it.
Wilkins and Diakate weren't/aren't decent bigs, huh?
(don't ask me why Bennett didn't play Diakate more in the 2nd half)

Our defense has mostly been terrible this year, as evidenced with our 100+ KP defensive ranking. It's been completely ineffective against the "unathletic" UVA teams until yesterday's 2nd half (it took a trunkmonkey and a sizzling Malachi in the tourney last year). But it was very, very good in the 2nd half yesterday against one of the more efficient offenses in the country. Why not just acknowledge that, especially in the immediate aftermath of such a hard-earned win?
 
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Well that is certainly news to me... have you seen the draft boards over the last several years?

I don't understand what is going through the heads of some SU fans. Inferiority complexes and a lack of perspective are colliding to create a twilight zone of insanity. This isn't directed at you, but this program was just sanctioned and we still made the final four for crying out loud.

We have had an excellent run the last several years and JB has overcome early departures and injuries by the handful while still kicking serious ass.

I'm baffled by the negativity as to the state of our program. So we are going to have a bad recruiting year next year? Who gives a . . . . , . . . . happens! Take a step back from your obsession and you will gain some perspective. It wasn't long ago we had a bad recruiting year every two years.

My post made no implication of an SU fan inferiority complex on my part. I simply stated that SU does not get the top players. It never has.

SU gets its share of top 100 kids, but The top kids are top 10, maybe top 25. And historically, SU does not get these kids. On the occasion, they may get a kid or 2 from the elite, but not on a regular basis. This isn't pessimism on my account, that is historical fact. It also doesn't overly concern me, just like it didn't overly concern me that SU lost out on the possibility of a truly great recruiting class this year. History showed the odds were stacked against it happening. Yet the chicken little's of the board (including some really highly respected posters) were ready to dump JB in the (has)bin. Despite my repeated reminders of the penalties levied against the program. People have continued to underestimate their affects.

But JB has usually worked his magic with the top 25-75 kids and sprinkled in a few diamonds in the rough. That has always been his sweet spot. Grab the occasional top player, and now the formula seems to be including grad transfers, and you have the formula. The key is, he has recruited kids who are ideally suited to play the zone for quite some time now. He has proven that he is willing to give up getting a higher ranked player to get one suited to the zone.

The zone works. The game hasn't passed it by. It's only a matter of whether the kids are able to learn how to play it, as it isn't a question of whether the coaches are able to teach it. The have proven that to all but the people with an agenda.

And recent years results have shown that it is a method that works. The interesting thing is that years ago everyone used to complain how the team would peak early, then fade as the year went along. It now seems that he is getting more players who are not quite ready at the beginning of the season, but grow into the team and the defense as the year goes along. Fans used to complain about having such a good team, and going out early. If only JB could get a team to peak later in the year and be ready by the time the tournament comes around.

So, SU has started having those teams. The beginning of the season has not looked pretty for several years, yet there they are at the end, going deep into the tournament. Of course, what that means, is we have short-sighted posters. Posters who write off the team in November. Posters who blast the players and the coaches. Posters who down every aspect of the program at times.

I've seen this all. I may not post much, but I have been a lurker for many years and many iterations of this board. The posters names change, but the theme stays the same. Yet we will all be very sad when JB finally hangs it up. A level of consistency never before seen, and a level of excellency only few have ever achieved.
 
"The zone works. The game hasn't passed it by. It's only a matter of whether the kids are able to learn how to play it, as it isn't a question of whether the coaches are able to teach it. The have proven that to all but the people with an agenda."

haven't ever read many posts that say the zone is useless. what many posters here ( myself included) ask is why we can't seem to mix up both like 90% of the other programs out there.
it should never be a question of either/or for a well coached team. both are viable.
 
well these limits are in fact self imposed and are in no way mandated under ncaa rules .
 
haven't ever read many posts that say the zone is useless. what many posters here ( myself included) is why we can't seem to mix up both like 90% of the other programs out there.

What is it that drives the need to be like everyone else? Just because most do it, doesn't necessarily mean that it is the best to do. JB doesn't mix man & zone. He mixes zone & press. That is his mixing. So, it isn't that you don't think he mixes (unless you don't watch or don't understand), it is that he doesn't do exactly as you want him to do. Unless you are secretly coach K, I don't think your views hold much water in comparison to JB's.

His method has proven to be successful. Why is that not good enough? Because it isn't how you and others want it done?
 
proven successful ? name one other program that won a title playing zone only ? what proof ?

(edit : also our only title we don't get by ok st without trunk monkey. )

and if zone was the answer every coach in ncaa would do it. they've seen the tape. they don't.
so draw your own conclusions. and tell me again how having options on D is a bad thing.
 
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- Let's not get carried away. The SU press is a desperation ploy/tactic. Everyone uses it when they are screwed. Teams like Louisville, Villanova, WVU, Cincinnati, etc., use it as a regular weapon.

- Virginia has had some very good athletes in the past. Just having one or two of those kinds of guys truly transforms that team to an elite group combined with the solid all around role player types. Brogdon, Justin Anderson, Gill, are a few of those types. They don't have those types of guys on this team.
 
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pressure defense also requires some depth. depth which only good recruiting can provide.
 
"The zone works. The game hasn't passed it by. It's only a matter of whether the kids are able to learn how to play it, as it isn't a question of whether the coaches are able to teach it. The have proven that to all but the people with an agenda."

haven't ever read many posts that say the zone is useless. what many posters here ( myself included) ask is why we can't seem to mix up both like 90% of the other programs out there.
it should never be a question of either/or for a well coached team. both are viable.

We play 100% zone. That's what we do and have been successful doing it. Maybe other teams should try it.
 
zone is 1 for 40. (not even really) m2m is 39 of 40. what's the definition of success exactly ?


(edit: i say not really cuz boeheim used to know how to mix defenses to his advantage. )
 
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proven successful ? name one other program that won a title playing zone only ? what proof ?

(edit : also our only title we don't get by ok st without trunk monkey. )

and if zone was the answer every coach in ncaa would do it. they've seen the tape. they don't.
so draw your own conclusions. and tell me again how having options on D is a bad thing.
Why are more teams than ever playing it? Why did coach K have JB tell him all about it, so he could implement it?

The zone can be the answer like man can be the answer. More coaches are turning to it. He wins plenty and does more with less. Every coach has their own philosophy, who cares as long as you're winning, and winning consistently?
 
zone is 1 for 40. (not even really) m2m is 39 of 40. what's the definition of success exactly ?


(edit: i say not really cuz boeheim used to know how to mix defenses to his advantage. )
That's a terrible attempt at the point you're trying to make.
 
sorry but you make it sound like coach K and many others are turning to it EXCLUSIVELY ?
 

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