Army Game... | Page 19 | Syracusefan.com

Army Game...

Army in lacrosse and Pitt in basketball have found away to get in the heads of Cuse players.
 
OrangeXtreme said:
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...and the backpack has a bologna sandwich, a bag of chips, an apple and a drink...
 
I'm equating this loss to a Danowski, slow Duke season start type loss. The sky isn't falling, last week several people on this forum mention losing as being a very distinct possibility. Army had the week refocus and sharpen their game after UVA and did so impressively. Disappointing? Yes, extremely. Season ending, absolutely not. This could be the best thing to have happen.

The good news is that all the hype about "Unfinished Business" and "Championship or Bust" and picking up where they left off last season just got completely kicked to curb. If a loss like that doesn't humble and refocus a team nothing will. There were no moral victories, it was a good old fashioned a$$ kicking for 3 quarters. I'm hoping all the 5th year senior leadership takes over and some personal pride and hard work is exuded from this point forward. They proved the ability was there in the 1st quarter. I think the team got a cruel reminder that people don't fear the Orange anymore and wins have to be earned with 4 quarters of work.

The bad news, UVA is in good form. Gonna be a steep hill to climb this week. Giddy up boys!
 
I will say that after watching a good portion of the replay, my main concern is more with the defense than the offense. Looking back the main problems with our offense were sloppy turnovers, unnecessary low percentage shots early in the shot clock, and not making shots that we absolutely should make. We had a boat load of wide open looks, some in completely point blank scenarios right in front of the goal (Cook, Buttermore, and Scanlan x2 or 3). Along with the failure from point blank range we had shots from slightly outside that were also quite makable for our guys. Curry Trimboli and Dordevic all had looks barreling down the middle that didn't go. Quite a few of the misses were pipes, but I don't like getting too hung up on that. A miss is a miss. Those problems are vastly different than some of the ones we were pointing out in the early season Denver games, where it seemed like nobody could even beat their man to initiate the types of rotations that lead to a goal. I had similar thoughts watching Hopkins v Ohio state.

While I agree with quite a bit of the critiques on the attack, given the dodging ability and ability to invert our starting mids (at least for Curry and Dordy), I like that we have two guys in Scanlan and Rehfuss who are good at making things happen after the defense has rotated around. They both have skill at finding skip passes in an over rotated defense and I think it works well with the strength of our middie dodgers. It's early but I saw similar skills from Hiltz as well. Scanlan was off when it came to capitalizing on his shots, but he has proven in the past that he can work a short stick and a weaker long pole in his own style, and anyone who has seen him play knows that he usually makes the most of open shots. Yesterday was a bad day at the office from him and that's not just an excuse, it's clear from his stats the last two years. He will be better. The O has too much talent to be denied and I still have faith in Pat March.
 
DoctahLexus said:
I will say that after watching a good portion of the replay, my main concern is more with the defense than the offense. Looking back the main problems with our offense were sloppy turnovers, unnecessary low percentage shots early in the shot clock, and not making shots that we absolutely should make. We had a boat load of wide open looks, some in completely point blank scenarios right in front of the goal (Cook, Buttermore, and Scanlan x2 or 3). Along with the failure from point blank range we had shots from slightly outside that were also quite makable for our guys. Curry Trimboli and Dordevic all had looks barreling down the middle that didn't go. Quite a few of the misses were pipes, but I don't like getting too hung up on that. A miss is a miss. Those problems are vastly different than some of the ones we were pointing out in the early season Denver games, where it seemed like nobody could even beat their man to initiate the types of rotations that lead to a goal. I had similar thoughts watching Hopkins v Ohio state.

While I agree with quite a bit of the critiques on the attack, given the dodging ability and ability to invert our starting mids (at least for Curry and Dordy), I like that we have two guys in Scanlan and Rehfuss who are good at making things happen after the defense has rotated around. They both have skill at finding skip passes in an over rotated defense and I think it works well with the strength of our middie dodgers. It's early but I saw similar skills from Hiltz as well. Scanlan was off when it came to capitalizing on his shots, but he has proven in the past that he can work a short stick and a weaker long pole in his own style, and anyone who has seen him play knows that he usually makes the most of open shots. Yesterday was a bad day at the office from him and that's not just an excuse, it's clear from his stats the last two years. He will be better. The O has too much talent to be denied and I still have faith in Pat March.
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Completely agree. I posted this sentiment right after the game that the D was alarmingly bad and floored by the relative ease of team known for its D to go off like some offensive juggernaut. Which, they are far from being. I was stunned watching it unfold. Ugh!
 
DoctahLexus said:
I will say that after watching a good portion of the replay, my main concern is more with the defense than the offense. Looking back the main problems with our offense were sloppy turnovers, unnecessary low percentage shots early in the shot clock, and not making shots that we absolutely should make. We had a boat load of wide open looks, some in completely point blank scenarios right in front of the goal (Cook, Buttermore, and Scanlan x2 or 3). Along with the failure from point blank range we had shots from slightly outside that were also quite makable for our guys. Curry Trimboli and Dordevic all had looks barreling down the middle that didn't go. Quite a few of the misses were pipes, but I don't like getting too hung up on that. A miss is a miss. Those problems are vastly different than some of the ones we were pointing out in the early season Denver games, where it seemed like nobody could even beat their man to initiate the types of rotations that lead to a goal. I had similar thoughts watching Hopkins v Ohio state.

While I agree with quite a bit of the critiques on the attack, given the dodging ability and ability to invert our starting mids (at least for Curry and Dordy), I like that we have two guys in Scanlan and Rehfuss who are good at making things happen after the defense has rotated around. They both have skill at finding skip passes in an over rotated defense and I think it works well with the strength of our middie dodgers. It's early but I saw similar skills from Hiltz as well. Scanlan was off when it came to capitalizing on his shots, but he has proven in the past that he can work a short stick and a weaker long pole in his own style, and anyone who has seen him play knows that he usually makes the most of open shots. Yesterday was a bad day at the office from him and that's not just an excuse, it's clear from his stats the last two years. He will be better. The O has too much talent to be denied and I still have faith in Pat March.
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You make some very good points about not overreacting about the offense based on one game. However, you can understand how many of us are concerned. We did struggle offensively versus Army last year, down 5-2 at the half under Pat March. While it was a great effort to win that game, it was far from vindication of the offense. We seemed to have no answer for Army's adjustments after the first quarter yesterday - certainly cause for concern. With our offensive talent, a run and gun offense could be a better option than the ball-possession, plodding one we saw yesterday (which seemed to be more concerned about clock management than scoring). As for your main concern about the defense, I think the experience and talent is there, much like the offense, with continuity from last year when the defense did perform pretty well against admittedly mediocre opponents.
 
orangecuse said:
Completely agree. I posted this sentiment right after the game that the D was alarmingly bad and stunned by the relative ease of team known for its D to go off like some offensive juggernaut. Which, they are far from being.
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I'm definitely on the side that says it's not time to hit the panic button. Although I was incredible disappointed in the outcome it's just one game and it's our first game. We saw a Cuse team that made a lot of mistakes that would've never happened with more practice time & especially a scrimmage. Coaches and players both got to see some things yesterday that they haven't experienced in the short spring schedule. They'll learn from this, adjust, and I believe will get better.
There is no doubt that communication was off on defense; especially between the poles and short sticks. Army did a great job of inverting our DM's and then took advantage of them from behind the cage. This will definitely be a huge area of focus leading up to Virginia.

We made some silly transition mistakes which cost us at least 2-3 goals. On multiple occasions our mids ran off the field way late during transition leaving no opportunity for the LSM/DM to impact the play. It created a man up situation which Army quickly capitalized on. You know our guys have been taught this since grade school so this will be fixed.

Murphy going down was also felt quickly as Hapney got burned twice on the crease during a man down situation. I've heard Hapney is solid but probably hasn't received enough reps on the Man Down unit.

Early season losses, though painful, are not always bad. These boys definitely have the talent; however, they probably had a big ego before the game. Learn, Get Better, & Move On!
 
Laxatively said:
You make some very good points about not overreacting about the offense based on one game. However, you can understand how many of us are concerned. We did struggle offensively versus Army last year, down 5-2 at the half under Pat March. While it was a great effort to win that game, it was far from vindication of the offense. We seemed to have no answer for Army's adjustments after the first quarter yesterday - certainly cause for concern. With our offensive talent, a run and gun offense could be a better option than the ball-possession, plodding one we saw yesterday (which seemed to be more concerned about clock management than scoring). As for your main concern about the defense, I think the experience and talent is there, much like the offense, with continuity from last year when the defense did perform pretty well against admittedly mediocre opponents.
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I hear you. To me it come's down to what is easier to solve quickly. The looks were there for the offense yesterday. Dialing in shots, avoiding sloppy turnovers, not taking low percentage shots early in the shotclock, these problems seem easier to overcome. Flicking a switch and asking the D to turn around and navigate picks properly, avoid ball watching, get settled when the other team comes down in transition, to get their slide rotations as a unit in top shape, all things that looked terrible yesterday, it is a much bigger ask, especially against a more potent offense in UVA. When army gets on a roll they are dangerous. This has been the case for years. Some of those offensive plays you just had to tip your cap, but not all.
 
Terrible game. They got their asses handed to them. Maybe it’s a good thing for their heads. Not overly concerned as this was one game and we have the talent to go the distance. Desko will figure it out. Overall, thought there were 3 guys that looked to the part. Tucker, Kennedy, and refuss. Other than that, our young short stick d middies have a lot to work on, getting beat straight up and losing their guy very easily off ball. Think we may need to make a switch on attack. Hilts needs to start, he’s clearly more talented than other guys on the team, need to start him at attack moving forward. We will return to form this week. Trimboli and curry gonna have a big week. Need to get scanlon going as well.
 

I agree with Ted’s take on the attack unit; especially about Cook and Hiltz.
 
DoctahLexus said:
I will say that after watching a good portion of the replay, my main concern is more with the defense than the offense. Looking back the main problems with our offense were sloppy turnovers, unnecessary low percentage shots early in the shot clock, and not making shots that we absolutely should make. We had a boat load of wide open looks, some in completely point blank scenarios right in front of the goal (Cook, Buttermore, and Scanlan x2 or 3). Along with the failure from point blank range we had shots from slightly outside that were also quite makable for our guys. Curry Trimboli and Dordevic all had looks barreling down the middle that didn't go. Quite a few of the misses were pipes, but I don't like getting too hung up on that. A miss is a miss. Those problems are vastly different than some of the ones we were pointing out in the early season Denver games, where it seemed like nobody could even beat their man to initiate the types of rotations that lead to a goal. I had similar thoughts watching Hopkins v Ohio state.

While I agree with quite a bit of the critiques on the attack, given the dodging ability and ability to invert our starting mids (at least for Curry and Dordy), I like that we have two guys in Scanlan and Rehfuss who are good at making things happen after the defense has rotated around. They both have skill at finding skip passes in an over rotated defense and I think it works well with the strength of our middie dodgers. It's early but I saw similar skills from Hiltz as well. Scanlan was off when it came to capitalizing on his shots, but he has proven in the past that he can work a short stick and a weaker long pole in his own style, and anyone who has seen him play knows that he usually makes the most of open shots. Yesterday was a bad day at the office from him and that's not just an excuse, it's clear from his stats the last two years. He will be better. The O has too much talent to be denied and I still have faith in Pat March.
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Well said. I think the offense is much better than it showed yesterday, but things definitely need to be ironed out. Scanlan taking a lot of heat early on, and he deserves some of it for sure, but he also had a number of nice passes that weren't finished by his teammates. In back to back sequences in the third, he fed from X and Rhefuss got stuffed right in front of the goal, the next possession Seebold dropped a wide open pass as he was streaking in from the box leading to a turnover. I think Scanlan was thrown off by the short stick matchup - it looked to me he decided that he needed to exploit that matchup and it got into his head. Not trying to make excuses but he seemed over eager to go to the goal - the first four possessions of the game it was a Scanlan goal followed by three quick turnovers, I think all by 22.

To me, it felt like Army was aiming for corners, and if they weren't hitting (and they usually were) at least they were maintaining possession on the backup. 'Cuse on the other hand seemed to hit Schlupper right in the chest or the stick, and their possessions ended almost as quickly as they began. Like the Scanlan critique, it definitely felt like guys were not playing as a team - there were nice passes to the crease that got stuffed, but overall it was hard to tell what offense the group was trying to run.

Defense was such a mess its almost hard to go through and point out all the issues. When Syracuse does struggle on defense, it seems like its always the same issues, bad rotations, bad slides and shorties getting exposed. Frustrating. I did think Porter played pretty well, a lot of the shots Army was hitting, most goalies aren't making those saves - and he was left out to dry a number of times. To me, if there is one thing to work on he seems to be very slow when getting to low shots.

So where does Syracuse go from here? I have two suggestions and its the two things we've been debating all off-season. I think, if Kennedy is not going to be a lockdown defender, then there is no reason to take away his best gifts (transition and chaos making in the middle of the field) if star attackmen are going to still put up 7 points. It clearly wasn't all his fault, Nichtern got matched up with a shorty a number of times, but it hit me that Kennedy is not being utilized the best way. They seemed to move him back to LSM at the end of the game and inserted Horan (who got beat by Nichtern pretty easily twice but didn't score).

The question remains who becomes that Alpha defender? Certainly no one on the unit distinguished themselves against Army. Hoping maybe Wykoff can fill in for Kennedy at close, but we shall see, we don't have anything to go on right now. Also, looking at groundball stats, no defender except for Dearth had more than one groundball (he had three) - that is really discouraging to see. Clary was pretty non existent on the wing, and Kennedy would be an upgrade there. Phaup is good but he is limited when he gets the ball in his stick. He can't do it all himself all game long and needs help from his wings.

The second change I think needs to be made is pretty obvious at this point, and I don't know why it was such a hard question to answer. Hiltz needs to be in for Cook. I wasn't blown away by Hiltz in this game, he had a nice goal and an assist but he also had a really bad turnover at the end of the game (he tried a bounce pass to Curry that was ugly). But, if he's getting all this hype, and he's supposed to be #2 recruit in the country, and Cook isn't going to produce, then you have to get him on the field as much as possible. Cook can still be rotated in, and while his riding is really something to watch, we just need much much more production from the position. There is no time right now to waste, if Hiltz is the guy, he needs the most reps.

Thought this quote from Dordevic was interesting - maybe reading too much into it, but kind of sounds like he's advocating for Hiltz to be moved to attack. I know he's discussing man-up, but I think its a good sign if he's talking about the chemistry between two lefties.

 
Powellfan said:
Well said. I think the offense is much better than it showed yesterday, but things definitely need to be ironed out. Scanlan taking a lot of heat early on, and he deserves some of it for sure, but he also had a number of nice passes that weren't finished by his teammates. In back to back sequences in the third, he fed from X and Rhefuss got stuffed right in front of the goal, the next possession Seebold dropped a wide open pass as he was streaking in from the box leading to a turnover. I think Scanlan was thrown off by the short stick matchup - it looked to me he decided that he needed to exploit that matchup and it got into his head. Not trying to make excuses but he seemed over eager to go to the goal - the first four possessions of the game it was a Scanlan goal followed by three quick turnovers, I think all by 22.

To me, it felt like Army was aiming for corners, and if they weren't hitting (and they usually were) at least they were maintaining possession on the backup. 'Cuse on the other hand seemed to hit Schlupper right in the chest or the stick, and their possessions ended almost as quickly as they began. Like the Scanlan critique, it definitely felt like guys were not playing as a team - there were nice passes to the crease that got stuffed, but overall it was hard to tell what offense the group was trying to run.

Defense was such a mess its almost hard to go through and point out all the issues. When Syracuse does struggle on defense, it seems like its always the same issues, bad rotations, bad slides and shorties getting exposed. Frustrating. I did think Porter played pretty well, a lot of the shots Army was hitting, most goalies aren't making those saves - and he was left out to dry a number of times. To me, if there is one thing to work on he seems to be very slow when getting to low shots.

So where does Syracuse go from here? I have two suggestions and its the two things we've been debating all off-season. I think, if Kennedy is not going to be a lockdown defender, then there is no reason to take away his best gifts (transition and chaos making in the middle of the field) if star attackmen are going to still put up 7 points. It clearly wasn't all his fault, Nichtern got matched up with a shorty a number of times, but it hit me that Kennedy is not being utilized the best way. They seemed to move him back to LSM at the end of the game and inserted Horan (who got beat by Nichtern pretty easily twice but didn't score).

The question remains who becomes that Alpha defender? Certainly no one on the unit distinguished themselves against Army. Hoping maybe Wykoff can fill in for Kennedy at close, but we shall see, we don't have anything to go on right now. Also, looking at groundball stats, no defender except for Dearth had more than one groundball (he had three) - that is really discouraging to see. Clary was pretty non existent on the wing, and Kennedy would be an upgrade there. Phaup is good but he is limited when he gets the ball in his stick. He can't do it all himself all game long and needs help from his wings.

The second change I think needs to be made is pretty obvious at this point, and I don't know why it was such a hard question to answer. Hiltz needs to be in for Cook. I wasn't blown away by Hiltz in this game, he had a nice goal and an assist but he also had a really bad turnover at the end of the game (he tried a bounce pass to Curry that was ugly). But, if he's getting all this hype, and he's supposed to be #2 recruit in the country, and Cook isn't going to produce, then you have to get him on the field as much as possible. Cook can still be rotated in, and while his riding is really something to watch, we just need much much more production from the position. There is no time right now to waste, if Hiltz is the guy, he needs the most reps.

Thought this quote from Dordevic was interesting - maybe reading too much into it, but kind of sounds like he's advocating for Hiltz to be moved to attack. I know he's discussing man-up, but I think its a good sign if he's talking about the chemistry between two lefties.

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Specifically regarding your point about Kennedy, I was thinking about that yesterday after the game. To me Kennedy is not a lockdown defender a la John Glatzel, Jon Lade or even Brian Megill and he is still best suited to run LSM and do his thing in the middle of the field like you said. The problem is it appears maybe they only have a bunch of solid but not spectacular guys on the back end.
 
MD Cuse Fan said:
Specifically regarding your point about Kennedy, I was thinking about that yesterday after the game. To me Kennedy is not a lockdown defender a la John Glatzel, Jon Lade or even Brian Megill and he is still best suited to run LSM and do his thing in the middle of the field like you said. The problem is it appears maybe they only have a bunch of solid but not spectacular guys on the back end.
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I think that while Kennedy is better suited for LSM he has what it takes as a lockdown close D guy. He did pretty well against nichtern. Only goal Nichtern scored against him off the dodge was a fairly low angle question mark dodge that Porter had a chance to stop. His other points were off of switches or off ball goals. Did a good enough job pushing him away from his spots and he is a tough body to push. A lazy approach on Nichtern's very first dodge of the day nearly got his ankles broken, but he woke up after that. I think he has the right combination of speed and strength to be effective. I expect good things from him in the Moore matchup.
 
I dont Doc and I'd say the same if Mellen was here because leaving defender on island without any help from slides agaisnt Moore wont work. He took Cam Wyers who is a fine cd to the wood shed five times. Only drawback of Moore's individual brilliance is fewer involved.. Their team at its best vs Towson when many dodging and passing for open looks. Kennedy is fine at cd, Nichtern scored twice on man ups and once on dm when he had to slide to prevent a dm getting beat but that role takes away from his greatest strengths and team loses his transition skills both offensively and defensively. UVA left Conners at lsm despite needing cd help last year because he is simply more valuable there . Hoping that Wykoff is good cd when ready or either Barlow or Clary capable enuff to allow K to shift back up top because walking ball up and seeing Army transit was unsightly. Poster mentioned that some sideline subs were late which contributed to problems , that needs to be corrected if true. Getting off and on ultra important vs UVA . Gotta excuse me , Im obviously a fan of how UVA plays and think we could do same. Like to see us pushing pace because we do have speed.
 
DoctahLexus said:
I think that while Kennedy is better suited for LSM he has what it takes as a lockdown close D guy. He did pretty well against nichtern. Only goal Nichtern scored against him off the dodge was a fairly low angle question mark dodge that Porter had a chance to stop. His other points were off of switches or off ball goals. Did a good enough job pushing him away from his spots and he is a tough body to push. A lazy approach on Nichtern's very first dodge of the day nearly got his ankles broken, but he woke up after that. I think he has the right combination of speed and strength to be effective. I expect good things from him in the Moore matchup.
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All true, but Nichtern still finished with seven points and Army scored 18 goals. What would Nichtern have done with another defender on him? I didn't think Nichtern tested Kennedy all that much in the first half and then kind of exploded in the second when the SU defense fell apart. Meanwhile Kennedy can't do anything in transition, and isn't helping on the wings. Also think he helps more in the clearing game when he is up top. I was on the fence most of the off season, but Kennedy is one of the best LSMs in the country and I think its being wasted down low. Moving him isn't going to fix everything (far from it) but at least it gets the team an elite player at a position instead of "pretty good" play across the board. Bottom line is the team defense needs to improve, hoping to see that on Saturday.
 
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