Article Published in Post-Standard 8/18/09 | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

Article Published in Post-Standard 8/18/09

Another youngin' with all the answers!

SU is at a point now where they need wins more than anything else. Recruits aren't going to be impressed with playing USC and OU if Cuse is losing by three or more touchdowns, which realistically could happen this year.

HCDM can't sell recruits on the whole "sure we were 6-6, but two of those losses came to USC and OU!" That doesn't work.

Along the same lines, with regards to MetLife games, it will not be good for tri-state (NYC/LI, NJ, CT/Eastern PA, etc..) recruits to see a bloodbath in MetLife. Play USC at the Dome and schedule someone like Penn St or Benedict Arnold or even RU (once SU is in the ACC) at MetLife. SU should schedule teams they have a realistic shot at beating in these games. There is no benefit to getting blown out at a pro stadium 250 miles from your campus. That is not the kind of exposure SU should be looking for.

I also disagree with your national prestige comment. Nationally, SU is still a bigger football name than RU and UConn. Regionally thought you may be right, and this should be concerning. Playing OU, USC, etc...in MetLife Stadium is not going to help this.
How is SU's national prestige better than Rutgers and UConn's at this point? UConn was in a BCS bowl, Rutgers has was national sensation in 2006, both have landed draft picks in the first round (something SU hasn't done since 2001). Let me make this clear, SU is an irrelevant team nationally this past decade, which is a lot of what recruits and sponsors put heavy emphasis on. Since 2004, SU has had one winning season with another being .500, UConn has had five along with two conference championships, and Rutgers had six winning seasons with a 5-1 bowl record. If you think both programs do not have more national sway right now then you are blinded by loyalty to SU.

The whole point of the NYC games is for SU to be playing against a big name team on a big time stage with a lot of money coming SU's way. The program has to completely rebrand itself; it's time to look to the present and future instead of burying our heads in the past. I'm sorry but no one outside of the program cares about our past and tradition, and that's the simple truth. You are completely wrong about recruits, and by your first comment about me being a young in' I'm guessing you're closer to retirement than to being fresh out of college. You are completely out of touch with today's youth on this. They are all about what you've done RECENTLY and what you can do for them NOW, not what McNabb did nearly twenty years ago or what Ernie Davis did 50 years ago. It's about how many guys have you sent to the NFL in the past few years? How many actually play rather than sit the bench or are on the practice squad? All SU has is the past, it's time to start thinking about the future.
 
Suppose Temple joins the BE and is slotted as our 6th home game, and suppose we agree to travel to Oklahoma as part of a 3 game deal (home, road, neutral). Wouldn't that solve all our problems?
It would.

The expectation, however, is that Temple will simply slide into WVU's schedule slot. For Syracuse that means a road game.

A schedule with only 5 true home games does not reflect well on those at MFH.
 
2012 BE Conference Schedule

Cinci: 4 home / 2 road
UConn: 2 home / 4 road
Lou: 3 home / 3 road
Pitt: 2 home / 4 road
Rut: 3 home / 3 road
SU: 3 home / 3 road
USF: 4 home / 2 road

If Temple comes in for 2012, they will have to play @UConn and @Pitt, with home games against Cinci and USF. The 3/3 games are toss-ups.

Louisville already has 6 home games. Rutgers already has 6 home games. SU has 5 home games.

It would make sense to have Temple come to SU for 1 year if we can't get anyone else.

Not that the BE does anything that makes sense.
 
How is SU's national prestige better than Rutgers and UConn's at this point?

It's called brand and is one of the reasons we are headed to the ACC.
 
I don't disagree, competitors want to compete but that's not scheduling for success. Even Notre Dame woke up and realized they had to dumb down their schedule or they couldn't compete.


Go 0-2 against USC and Oklahoma and this board will be crucifying Marrone. There will be no latitude.


At the end of the year nobody cares who you played they only care what the record is. The 1987 season schedule was FAR from a murderers row.
we got beat handily by USC and most of the board was encouraged by it.
 
2012 BE Conference Schedule

Cinci: 4 home / 2 road
UConn: 2 home / 4 road
Lou: 3 home / 3 road
Pitt: 2 home / 4 road
Rut: 3 home / 3 road
SU: 3 home / 3 road
USF: 4 home / 2 road

If Temple comes in for 2012, they will have to play @UConn and @Pitt, with home games against Cinci and USF. The 3/3 games are toss-ups.

Louisville already has 6 home games. Rutgers already has 6 home games. SU has 5 home games.

It would make sense to have Temple come to SU for 1 year if we can't get anyone else.

Not that the BE does anything that makes sense.

IF Okie and Temple happen, the initial assumption is that Temple would just replace WVU on peoples schedule. There was no schedule with TCU. If the BE is willing to change the "rotation" which would put SU @ Temple like they would have had to play @ WVU, then great. I assume the BE isn't going to do us any favors, but we can still hope. Look at your home/away above. Of SU, Temple, Louisville and Rutgers, which 2 will get 4 and which 2 will get 3 home games? My initial bet would be SU and Temple get the 3-4 deal.
 
Look at your home/away above. Of SU, Temple, Louisville and Rutgers, which 2 will get 4 and which 2 will get 3 home games? My initial bet would be SU and Temple get the 3-4 deal.
That's probably correct, unless Louisville makes an exit announcement before the schedule is set. Since we've "played nice" so far, maybe they'd stick the Cardinals with the extra road game. A fly in the ointment could be if they promised Temple the extra home game right away to make up for whatever they are going to have to do to leave their current conference(s). Rutgers is sitting most comfortably, even though they'd be least impacted by a game at the Linc.
 
That's probably correct, unless Louisville makes an exit announcement before the schedule is set. Since we've "played nice" so far, maybe they'd stick the Cardinals with the extra road game. A fly in the ointment could be if they promised Temple the extra home game right away to make up for whatever they are going to have to do to leave their current conference(s). Rutgers is sitting most comfortably, even though they'd be least impacted by a game at the Linc.

Yea, they know Lville is at least dancing with the B12, so it could be us and them that get stuck.
 
I don't disagree, competitors want to compete but that's not scheduling for success. Even Notre Dame woke up and realized they had to dumb down their schedule or they couldn't compete.


Go 0-2 against USC and Oklahoma and this board will be crucifying Marrone. There will be no latitude.


At the end of the year nobody cares who you played they only care what the record is. The 1987 season schedule was FAR from a murderers row.

All that is very true.
 
How is SU's national prestige better than Rutgers and UConn's at this point? UConn was in a BCS bowl, Rutgers has was national sensation in 2006, both have landed draft picks in the first round (something SU hasn't done since 2001). Let me make this clear, SU is an irrelevant team nationally this past decade, which is a lot of what recruits and sponsors put heavy emphasis on. Since 2004, SU has had one winning season with another being .500, UConn has had five along with two conference championships, and Rutgers had six winning seasons with a 5-1 bowl record. If you think both programs do not have more national sway right now then you are blinded by loyalty to SU.

The whole point of the NYC games is for SU to be playing against a big name team on a big time stage with a lot of money coming SU's way. The program has to completely rebrand itself; it's time to look to the present and future instead of burying our heads in the past. I'm sorry but no one outside of the program cares about our past and tradition, and that's the simple truth. You are completely wrong about recruits, and by your first comment about me being a young in' I'm guessing you're closer to retirement than to being fresh out of college. You are completely out of touch with today's youth on this. They are all about what you've done RECENTLY and what you can do for them NOW, not what McNabb did nearly twenty years ago or what Ernie Davis did 50 years ago. It's about how many guys have you sent to the NFL in the past few years? How many actually play rather than sit the bench or are on the practice squad? All SU has is the past, it's time to start thinking about the future.

So were goign to rebrand ourselves by getting beat like we stole something by Oklahoma on the road? Your comments about UConn and Rutgers are also comical most college fball fans dont even know Uconn has a D1 team and RU hasnt done anything since that 06 season. Your way to new to this program and team to look at it objectively.
 
So were goign to rebrand ourselves by getting beat like we stole something by Oklahoma on the road? Your comments about UConn and Rutgers are also comical most college fball fans dont even know Uconn has a D1 team and RU hasnt done anything since that 06 season. Your way to new to this program and team to look at it objectively.
You fail to realize that I'm not talking from a fan's perspective, but a potential RECRUIT's perspective of the prestige of UConn, Rutgers, and SU. It's funny how quickly people on here forget that we were the laughingstock of D1 football only three years ago. We are still a joke to people that root for the top tier schools and that is the mentality in D1 football, and that's a fact. Do you have any friends that are Alabama, Oklahoma, or Ohio State fans? If so, then I would ask them what they thought about Su's football team. The perception has gotten better since the Pinstripe Bowl, but many still look at the program as a joke. Even our own alumni, according to one of the posters here. I think many on this board, including you, are biased in your view.

Who says we get beat down by Oklahoma or USC? I'm pretty sure Boise and TCU had to beat teams they were supposed to be throttled by in order to gain respectability. Why can't SU try to do the same?
 
A couple of things...

1) I wish this was about only about 2012. This isn't about this one decision. It is about a continuing string of decisions that seem designed to alienate the fanbase that attends games in the Dome.

2) You say when Gross made the promise, it was in the context of being in a 9 team Big East. He made the promise in August of 2009. TCU accepted an invitation to join the Big East on 11/30/10. Who is the ninth team you speak of?

3) I realize this isn't official yet. That is why I am trying to discourage it from happening.

4) I really hope that in the future, an ACC football schedule is seen by the SU fan base as a whole as 'much more attractive' than the BE schedules we have been playing over the past 20 plus years. Not hearing that from the people I talk to in CNY. Maybe the ACC will grow on people over time.

I don't think our conference affiliation will make much difference regarding attendance. The key is getting to a point were we consistently win more games than we lose and going to bowls on a regular basis. This area only supports winners.

1) Seems like right now, it's one decision, the USC game. We don't know for sure that OU's return would be in NYC with no Dome appearance as part of the deal. Yes, I think it's a distinct possibility, but we don't know. What other decisions? Penn State is a 1-1-1. ND is a play them or don't, and I think it's better to play them. Can't blame Gross for the school putting up academic buildings where parking lots once stood. And we still sell a good chunk of very good season tickets for $99, which in college football terms, is giving them away. Those with premium seats can comment if pricing is turning them away, I understand that could be something I'm overlooking, because I just don't know from my seat in Cheapville. Which is in the front row of the upper deck at a smallish stadium with seats right on top of the field. Still amazed I get to pay so little for such a great seat. But I digress...

2) You got me on that one, didn't realize that. But there were plenty of articles where Big East coaches and ADs were quoted as wanting 9 teams for scheduling balance. I think Gross assumed, or perhaps was ensured, they would eventually decide on a team and get there.

4) I don't know who you're talking to, but if people in CNY do not think (for football) that FSU, Clemson, Maryland, BC, NC State, Wake, Pitt each year with VT, Miami, UVA, UNC, GT mixed in, is more attractive than RU, UConn, Louisville, Cincy, USF, then I think SU will probably have a good idea how deep their problem lies. And if it can even be fixed. But I do agree that we need to put a better team on the field. Maybe most CNYers right now can't think beyond how bad the team has been, which I could understand.
 
Do you have any friends that are Alabama, Oklahoma, or Ohio State fans? If so, then I would ask them what they thought about Su's football team. The perception has gotten better since the Pinstripe Bowl, but many still look at the program as a joke.
Yup, I do. Maybe not those schools in particular, but other "big boy" or "factory" schools.

Talk to those who have been on the planet a little longer and you'll find that they have a different opinion than that you believe that they have. They realize that Syracuse is going through a downturn and rebuilding phase. They also remember what was there before and expect that Syracuse will be back for another period of high performance football.
 
4) I don't know who you're talking to, but if people in CNY do not think (for football) that FSU, Clemson, Maryland, BC, NC State, Wake, Pitt each year with VT, Miami, UVA, UNC, GT mixed in, is more attractive than RU, UConn, Louisville, Cincy, USF, then I think SU will probably have a good idea how deep their problem lies. And if it can even be fixed. But I do agree that we need to put a better team on the field. Maybe most CNYers right now can't think beyond how bad the team has been, which I could understand.

This was my reaction too. Granted, the most important thing is to have a winning SU team. But if the CNY fanbase isn't more excited, at least in theory, to be playing an ACC football schedule vs. a Big East football schedule, then I'm pretty much at a loss.

I totally get someone feeling that way about hoops. But football? :bang:
 
Those with premium seats can comment if pricing is turning them away, I understand that could be something I'm overlooking, because I just don't know from my seat in Cheapville. Which is in the front row of the upper deck at a smallish stadium with seats right on top of the field. Still amazed I get to pay so little for such a great seat. But I digress...

If we have 6 home games then my price for A will be $100 per game. If we have 5 home games it will be $120. And if we somehow have 7 (Temple at home and a non BCS) it will be $85.
 
Yup, I do. Maybe not those schools in particular, but other "big boy" or "factory" schools.

Talk to those who have been on the planet a little longer and you'll find that they have a different opinion than that you believe that they have. They realize that Syracuse is going through a downturn and rebuilding phase. They also remember what was there before and expect that Syracuse will be back for another period of high performance football.
I understand where you're coming from, and you make good points. We come from two different generations that have two completely different views of the game and the programs. The view of the younger generation that encompasses recent grads, current students, and prospective students/recruits is what I try to represent in the scheme of things. This board tends to think of things through what has happened throughout history/tradition. Many people in the younger generation don't look at the 90s they look at the past decade. Difference of generational viewpoint that's all this is about.
 
Gross also said that the Orange will play no fewer than six homes at the Carrier Dome in the years it has agreed to play USC and Notre Dame at the new Meadowlands facility. He said the addition of a 12th annual game to the schedule allows Syracuse to look at other opportunities he believes "will enhance our program.
Link

Dr Gross broke his promise to Syracuse fans before SU even played one game there.

Will he move SU home basketball games to MSG as well? He promised he would not.

What will happen with the return game with Oklahoma?

Based on past history with this SU AD, I am thinking...

50% probability the return game will be played at the New Meadowlands facility.

50% probability this was just a one game contract (something Syracuse never does)

0% probability the return game will be played at the Carrier Dome

Please Dr Gross, prove me wrong.

-------------------
I have no idea about the OK issue: focusing strictly on Meadowlands scheduling:

Dr Gross comments in article:
1) "Obviously, we're very excited financially with the terms. It has the makings to be a terrific relationship for the future of our program."

2) On top of the money, Gross said playing in the new Meadowlands against USC and Notre Dame will provide enormous exposure for his football team in an area that he deems critical in terms of donors, marketing, recruiting and cachet.

3) Recruiting is really important. To play those games in the New York area, now you hit Northern New Jersey, now you hit Long Island, now you hit New York City, now you hit Pennsylvania, you have exposure that's unrivaled.

4)"It's huge for us. We liken this to the (Syracuse) basketball team playing at Madison Square Garden in the Big East. "


Additionally:

This was in the context of SU being in the Big East, with minimum conference media income, no real nationally recognized programs (recent years have seen a lack of even top 15 teams), need to differentiate SU from a BCS conference which was rightly seen as number 6 of the top 6, and most importantly to hopefully keep SU visible for future conference expansion, which is about markets.


Now that SU is in the ACC, thanks to Dr. G and SU administration and perhaps coach DM with the Pinstripe bowl win, SU is in an ideal conference situation from a university perspective, will be making a minimum of 10 million plus dollars more in the ACC, will be drastically upgrading the interest level of the teams that visit SU.

With RU and UConn left in a Big East conference that is now officially an academic and geographical embarrassment, a conference only ND and the new CUSA schools apparently love, SU recruiting is almost guaranteed to make a major step forward.


What some apparently find hard to understand is that SU, while located in CNY, has a huge number of students, potential students, donors and yes potential recruits in the NY metro region. This is where SU should play at least once a year, and certainly at least once every 2 years, and to schedule a top tier team in a high profile game, with an attractive payout just makes it all the better. And yes, SU should also play at least one MSG BB game in NYC every year as well.


The Meadowlands game is SU's mid-season bowl in a great location from a university perspective, against a great opponent, that pays well and is given TV coverage and is convenient for CNY fans to attend if they are able and are interested.


Finally, the new conference environment is a 9 game schedule: this applies to the Big 10 with their PAC 12 deal, the PAC 12 has 9 games plus one against the Big 10, the Big 12 and the ACC. Offering the incentive of a Meadowlands game allows SU to select who it wants to play and offers at least the possibility that future scheduling will be home, away, Meadowlands now that SU is in a position of scheduling strength.
 
I think a lot of CNY fans will like the excuse to go to the city every year as well. Get down there friday night, go out and eat at one of the many world class restaurants. Wake up early Saturday and tailgate with buddies before the game, and then party in the parking lot or bars afterwards. Spend the day shopping on Sunday. Nice little weekend get-away.
 
I think a lot of CNY fans will like the excuse to go to the city every year as well. Get down there friday night, go out and eat at one of the many world class restaurants. Wake up early Saturday and tailgate with buddies before the game, and then party in the parking lot or bars afterwards. Spend the day shopping on Sunday. Nice little weekend get-away.

There's no doubt that it's easier being 30 minutes from a venue, than 4 hours. But many of the "big time" fanbases we seemingly aspire to be like have many fans that travel 4 hours, within the borders of their own state, for every home game.
 
A lot of tangents originating out of the first post here. One thing I would suggest is that a lot of folks are over-simplifying the issues. There are a number of shades of gray here...

However, I think some are really missing the underlying point of Tomcat's post. Those who are pointing to the "now" generation and claim that recruits may not care about history, tradition, etc. certainly have a valid point in some respects.

Ask yourself this, though...if you are one of the people who has given Rutgers credit in this thread, how did they get there ? Even if you assume that Rutgers is some sort of destination at the moment (based upon their recent recruiting classes) they got there with a hollow foundation.

Nationwide their schedules over the last 15 years are seen as a joke. However, they put together some winning seasons and won some mediocre bowl games. Now, some recruits see them as a program on the rise.

Would they have had the same feeling if they overscheduled during down/rebuilding scenarios (pretty much a generation or so of Rutgers football) ? I would say no chance. That is why overscheduling at this stage is very dangerous for SU.

SU is still in a rebuilding stage. As such, to overschedule at this point no matter where or when the return games are could be a major problem.

SUOrange44
 
-------------------

4)"It's huge for us. We liken this to the (Syracuse) basketball team playing at Madison Square Garden in the Big East. "

This is where SU should play at least once a year, and certainly at least once every 2 years, and to schedule a top tier team in a high profile game, with an attractive payout just makes it all the better. And yes, SU should also play at least one MSG BB game in NYC every year as well.

The football vs basketball comparison doesn't hold water. We play 6 or 7 home football games. Moving one to NYC every year is a huge deal.

We played 3 games in MSG this season (not counting the upcoming BET). We still had 19 home games.

And the new stadium in the meadowlands is a nice billion dollar bauble, but it hardly has the cachet of MSG "The World's Most Famous Arena".
 
A lot of tangents originating out of the first post here. One thing I would suggest is that a lot of folks are over-simplifying the issues. There are a number of shades of gray here...

However, I think some are really missing the underlying point of Tomcat's post. Those who are pointing to the "now" generation and claim that recruits may not care about history, tradition, etc. certainly have a valid point in some respects.

Ask yourself this, though...if you are one of the people who has given Rutgers credit in this thread, how did they get there ? Even if you assume that Rutgers is some sort of destination at the moment (based upon their recent recruiting classes) they got there with a hollow foundation.

Nationwide their schedules over the last 15 years are seen as a joke. However, they put together some winning seasons and won some mediocre bowl games. Now, some recruits see them as a program on the rise.

Would they have had the same feeling if they overscheduled during down/rebuilding scenarios (pretty much a generation or so of Rutgers football) ? I would say no chance. That is why overscheduling at this stage is very dangerous for SU.

SU is still in a rebuilding stage. As such, to overschedule at this point no matter where or when the return games are could be a major problem.

SUOrange44
I think you are absolutely right on everything here, and that is definitely my fault for overlooking that portion of it. I still think we can handle the schedule with Oklahoma better than Rutgers and UConn could have handle a tougher schedule to get to where they are. I think every situation is special, and in our situation we could benefit from a tougher schedule, but you're right, it is a dangerous.
 
The football vs basketball comparison doesn't hold water. We play 6 or 7 home football games. Moving one to NYC every year is a huge deal.

We played 3 games in MSG this season (not counting the upcoming BET). We still had 19 home games.

And the new stadium in the meadowlands is a nice billion dollar bauble, but it hardly has the cachet of MSG "The World's Most Famous Arena".
3/19 is pretty much the same ratio as 1/6 or 1/7. Just saying.
 
The football vs basketball comparison doesn't hold water. We play 6 or 7 home football games. Moving one to NYC every year is a huge deal.

We played 3 games in MSG this season (not counting the upcoming BET). We still had 19 home games.

And the new stadium in the meadowlands is a nice billion dollar bauble, but it hardly has the cachet of MSG "The World's Most Famous Arena".

-------------------

The Meadowlands game is once every 2 years.

Beyond that, with SU in the ACC and not playing RU and UConn yearly, the NYC Meadowlands game will be more important than ever.
 

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