"athletic" "unathletic" - please define as these terms pertain to basketball

[jncuse]

I view athleticism from 3 perspectives:

1. Skill based traits - Shooting, Dribbling in tight spaces, (Co-ordination type stuff)
2. Physical traits - Running (Speed + Agility), Jumping.
3. Strength

Those are impacted by court awareness / smarts / effort which aren't really elements of athleticism.

When people view athleticism from a basketball perspective my view is they tend to associate it with how well someone does within "2" above. . Perhaps it considers strength. And that is how I view athleticism from a basketball perspective as well. When we only consider that we are not a very athletic team.

 

[JDubbin]

Can I add an addendum to this thread?

A lot… and I mean a lot, a lot, I see the Syracuse players being accused of being lazy in game. Maybe because I tend to believe the best in people, but from my vantage point it seems like the Syracuse players absolutely try in rebounding & loose balls, but have the physical inability to get there before the opposing players.

However, inability is different than laziness, I don’t see it as that. Haha though it’s infuriating when it appears that the SU players are moving in slow motion.

Agree? Disagree? Why?

 

[pearl31]

Absolutely. You have to have 3. Its insane that we only have 1. We always without question have at least a SG and SF that is very athletic. And Jesse at this point is very skilled and athletic but isnt strong enough to hold onto a rebound. Very disheartening how easy the Nova supposed big guys took the ball away from him.

Alright. So, for example, Wisconsin has several athletic players?

 

[JustPherU]

Can I add an addendum to this thread?

A lot… and I mean a lot, a lot, I see the Syracuse players being accused of being lazy in game. Maybe because I tend to believe the best in people, but from my vantage point it seems like the Syracuse players absolutely try in rebounding & loose balls, but have the physical inability to get there before the opposing players.

However, inability is different than laziness, I don’t see it as that. Haha though it’s infuriating when it appears that the SU players are moving in slow motion.

Agree? Disagree? Why?

Agree, very good point that they are so slow it makes it look like there isn’t much effort.Sometimes though the ball comes off the rim and they are waiting for it to come to them instead of actually breaking towards the ball.

 

[pearl31]

Poll: Guard or Forward?

Curious as to what yous think... (I think the guard spot requires a better athlete than forward)

syracusefan.com

fwiw, the op answered his own question months ago.

Hey, good find. I was asking and attempting to answer that Q as it pertained to whether G or F is more difficult to play in JB’s zone - and yeah I have my own concept of what “athletic” seems to mean when applied to hoops… I probably should have framed this more like-
Is it necessary for a team to be “athletic” to be successful in p5 hoops?
And also, just blowing off my inquiry about Wisconsin’s domination of “athletic” teams?

 

[djcon57]

Can I add an addendum to this thread?

A lot… and I mean a lot, a lot, I see the Syracuse players being accused of being lazy in game. Maybe because I tend to believe the best in people, but from my vantage point it seems like the Syracuse players absolutely try in rebounding & loose balls, but have the physical inability to get there before the opposing players.

However, inability is different than laziness, I don’t see it as that. Haha though it’s infuriating when it appears that the SU players are moving in slow motion.

Agree? Disagree? Why?

Yep...would agree. Specifically I see Jimmy is in position to make a block or steal..he knows what he needs to do and just doesn’t have the hops or quickness to get to the ball in that situation. Doesnt mean hes a bad player at all and certainly not lazy, but results are the results

 

[pearl31]

Agree, very good point that they are so slow it makes it look like there isn’t much effort.Sometimes though the ball comes off the rim and they are waiting for it to come to them instead of actually breaking towards the ball.

So was Fl St the other day unathletic or just not trying?

 

[Forza Azzurri]

nm

Hakim Warrick was athletic.

Craig Forth was not.

Craig Forth is not getting out to block that jumper.

That is all I got.

 

[JustPherU]

So was Fl St the other day unathletic or just not trying?

Does the most athletic team always win?Teams that aren’t as athletic as other teams can still out rebound the more athletic team on occasion. Just by pure luck of where the ball came off the rim or maybe better effort on that particular night could lead to a rebound advantage.
This thread is almost comical at this point but I’ll play being as that I’m bored.

 

[Briancuse]

Yeah, it's not like Joe, Buddy, Jimmy, or Cole wouldn't break the ankles of pretty much every poster here.

But - compared to other high P5-level hoopsters, none of these guys has the same physical gifts of speed, hops, quickness, etc. that many of our opponents do.

Our guys are average, at best. (and that's probably being generous)
Most of our opponents are above average (and some are elite) in the athleticism department.

Now - our guys have a lot of basketball skills.
Which helps offset that, to a degree.

No one here is suiting up against them this year. Maybe Dasher.

 

[Briancuse]

Again...just disagree. Watch the clip. hes dunking over dudes in like 1981. He hurt his back and changed his style. He was just as athletic if not more than your standard nba player in the early 80s

Imagine had he not hurt his back.

 

[dollarbill44]

fast twitch muscles vs. slow twitch. That leads to greater burst, better quickness, better agility and thus better performance on the court and fields helps in speed.

theres a reason in the college football world one of the (many) parameters used in recruiting kids by those in the know, in this case in particular the recruitment of Italian decent kids, is they look favorably if a kid is from Sicily with that heritage vs. mainland. They have a good amount of fast twitch...I'll give ya one guess why with a hint. It has all to do with geography.

This topic actually facinates me and ive done a fair share of reading on the subject. Fast twitch vs slow twitch muscularity only captures a portion of the American definition of athletic ability (I say American, because if you were to ask a European, for example, who is more athletic, a soccer player or an American football player and you will get a very different answer than the typical response in this forum).
As for your assertion about geography and athletic ability, well, that's a very debatable and highly subjective take that has been disproven in many studies and not disproven in others (in other words, the evidence is inconclusive and the studies are often tainted). And there have been other studies that have shown the body can convert fast-twitch to slow-twitch fibers and vice versa through targeted training, which would suggest that there may be non-genetic factors at play in developing explosive power.
As for the Sicilian thing, it doesn't hold up that the genetic influence of African invaders/traders have somehow created athletes with fast-twitch dominant bidies. I suspect that this "thing" in recruiting that you refer to is at best ignorance and at worst, racist- based misinformation. The muslim invaders/conquerors of Sicily came from northern Africa (modern day Algeria, Libya and Tunisia). If there was truth to the theory, you would expect to see an abundance of explosive athletes from these countries (or Sicily for that matter), but this isn't the case, in fact, anecdotal evidence (Olympic summer games results) suggests it's the opposite.

Anyway, there's a lot more to unpack on this subject and I don't want to write anymore and I doubt anyone else has made it thus far. There's a lot of info on thw subject out there if anyone cares to broaden their understanding of genetic, social and economic factors on athletic performance.

 

[dollarbill44]

Is Minnesota Fats a great athlete? Is Willie Shoemaker a great athlete?

Nice strawman. Billiards is a parlor game, not an athletic sport and the horses are the athletes in horse racing. Jockeys are the drivers.

 

[pearl31]

Does the most athletic team always win?Teams that aren’t as athletic as other teams can still out rebound the more athletic team on occasion. Just by pure luck of where the ball came off the rim or maybe better effort on that particular night could lead to a rebound advantage.
This thread is almost comical at this point but I’ll play being as that I’m bored.

Nah, I think Hamilton just needs to go out and get more athletic players

 

[kcsu]

Speed, lateral quickness, strength, jumping, hand eye coordination, then we get into things like explosiveness, timing, and smoothness.

I remember comparing Cooney to my college friend who was strong and fairly fast and could jump - but couldn’t jump off a diving board and catch a ball while in the air.

We love all mentions of The Coon Dog. The

 

[OrangeDW]

Thought it was obvious we’re talking about in the context of power 5 D-1 basketball, lol.

Of course they’re all great athletes compared to 99.99999% of the population.

 

[kcsu]

Speed, lateral quickness, strength, jumping, hand eye coordination, then we get into things like explosiveness, timing, and smoothness.

I remember comparing Cooney to my college friend who was strong and fairly fast and could jump - but couldn’t jump off a diving board and catch a ball while in the air.

The Coon Dog the most prolific shooter in the history of SU. Kid loved to hunt his shots. He ran like a fugitive. Loved his hustle.

 

[OrangeDW]

We love all mentions of The Coon Dog. The

He just couldn’t really elevate when going to the hole. Neither could Malachi.

Cooney was really athletic in some ways, and subpar in others.

 

[OrangeDW]

The Coon Dog the most prolific shooter in the history of SU. Kid loved to hunt his shots. He ran like a fugitive. Loved his hustle.

Great defender at the top of the zone. He was an animal up there.

 

[OrangeDW]

I’ve said this before in these type of threads, but I remember Seth Shaeffer (sp. ?) for Colgate. He came to a b-ball camp I went to as a kid. Guy was out there throwing down reverse dunks like nothing. For Colgate he was a spot up shooter who never dunked.

Or even GMac - he was throwing down alley oop dunks in games in HS. Not at Cuse.

 

[Briancuse]

He just couldn’t really elevate when going to the hole. Neither could Malachi.

Cooney was really athletic in some ways, and subpar in others.

And he played on teams with big time athletes on.them. Grant rak.mcw etc.

 

[JustPherU]

Nice strawman. Billiards is a parlor game, not an athletic sport and the horses are the athletes in horse racing. Jockeys are the drivers.

It’s been a question that’s been asked for years.People have different views.
Some people don’t think race car drivers are athletes either, but others argue vehemently about their athleticism.

 

[690West]

Thought it was obvious we’re talking about in the context of power 5 D-1 basketball, lol.

Of course they’re all great athletes compared to 99.99999% of the population.

Exactly. Girard was the QB of a state championship football team. “Athletically” he’s not in the top 1%. He’s in the top POINT ONE %

 

[IthacaMatt]

nm

Athletic talent: Lateral movement, body strength (leg strength, upper body strength), jumping ability, straight line speed, hand-eye coordination, hand strength and dexterity, balance.

Stuff like dribbling ability is related to some of these things like how big and strong are your hands, hand-eye coordination and how much "touch" do you have. That's the borderline between "athletic ability" and "basketball skills".

Skills are things like dribbling, shooting (jump shots, set shots = FTs), rebounding, coachability, passing, boxing out, setting screens, moving off the ball, "basketball IQ". These are skills. Physical attributes are "athleticism".

 

[IthacaMatt]

Some level of athletic - Keith Van Horn
More athletic - Marek Dolezaj

Keith Van Horn, when he was on the Nets teams that were great, could run the break really fast for a big guy, and he had jumping skills. He could really throw down flying dunks on the break. He wasn't the strongest guy and didn't have great lateral speed on defense, but he could run and jump.