Cooney Debate/Criticism/Discussion Containment Thread

[RF2044]

Haven't looked at the numbers, but my eyes tell me that earlier in the season Cooney was taking it to the basket more and playing a more balanced game, whereas now the only shoots he's taking are threes and layups on the break.

Agreed. For awhile, he was getting into the lane for 16 footers. Those are easier shots to make, and can help you get off the snide when you're struggling. He also doesn't seem to be handling it as comfortably, either. Probably related issues.

 

[manleyzoo]

I thought he did a great job in the second half by simply not takind bad shots. He can draw the necessary defensive attention and not jack up off balance near half court shots.

For all the defensive attention he got in the 2H last night, he could have done the same sitting on the bench.

 

[iommi]

Terence Roberts, Josh Wright come to mind ...

They were overated coming out of high school. Big difference. No one was overrating them while in Orange. We knew they weren't very good. That being said, I will give T-Rob credit for toughing out his senior year on one leg.

 

[jordoo]

They were overated coming out of high school. Big difference. No one was overrating them while in Orange. We knew they weren't very good. That being said, I will give T-Rob credit for toughing out his senior year on one leg.

T-Rob played hard his whole career he just wasn't as good as the hype and never seemed to be able to put his whole game together. It happens some guys just don't pan out no need to dump on them as people as long as they are giving effort and not causing problems with the staff or team.
I still remember Josh Wright and his bewilderment over Jonny starting and getting a lions share of the minutes over him. That told you all you needed to know about his ability to really see reality as it related to him. I was upset with him for just quitting on the team and leaving. I get that he was disappointed but he should have known coming into the season that Jonny would be starting over him and he seemed to be the only person on the planet that was surprised by it.

 

[RF2044]

T-Rob played hard his whole career he just wasn't as good as the hype and never seemed to be able to put his whole game together. It happens some guys just don't pan out no need to down on them as people as long as they are giving effort and not causing problems with the staff or team.
I still remember Josh Wright and his bewilderment of Jonny starting and getting a lions share of the minutes over him. That told you all you needed to know about his ability to really see reality as it related to him. I was upset with him for just quitting on the team and leaving. I get that he was disappointed but he should have known coming into the season that Jonny would be starting over him and he seemed to be the only person on the planet that was surprised by it.

Not only did he quit, but that was also the year that Rautins got injured in preseason / Devendorf got injured early in the season. So while I cringe at the thought of a starting backcourt with two 6-0 guys, Wright would have been thrust back into a prominent role and would undoubtedly have played starters minutes, if not started outright.

Personally, I think that Wright [along with Michael Edwards] is one of the worst players that SU has ever recruited, and I doubt he would have risen to the occasion. But that's besides the point--he quit. To hell with him.

 

[Macky44]

So, after the game he's having tonight, we all know there's gonna be a bunch of people wanting to start more Cooney threads and what not. So how about we contain all that talk about him here, rather than have five different threads in a few hours.

 

[jordoo]

Not only did he quit, but that was also the year that Rautins got injured in preseason / Devendorf got injured early in the season. So while I cringe at the thought of a starting backcourt with two 6-0 guys, Wright would have been thrust back into a prominent role and would undoubtedly have played starters minutes, if not started outright.

Personally, I think that Wright [along with Michael Edwards] is one of the worst players that SU has ever recruited, and I doubt he would have risen to the occasion. But that's besides the point--he quit. To hell with him.

Yep and even if Scoop had taken minutes from him we could have certainly used Josh playing some minutes, allowing Jonny a little rest and his ability to shoot over 30% from 3 which was a real problem for that team without Devo and Andy. I still wonder what Wright was thinking coming back when we have Devo/Andy coming back and Jonny/Scoop coming in. If he was expecting big minutes he was nutz. Had neither Andy nor Devo gotten hurt he would have never played a minute other than early season mop up duty.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

Eh, most? I disagree.

And stop making it seem like people suddenly want Ron to play all 40 in place of cooney.

You win this discussion if I had said Cooney should play 40 minutes. But I didn't. I would love for him to get a few minutes rest each half. I cringe however to think of Rak & G playing 2 on 5 for more than a minute or two. Who gives Rak a rest and contributes? Who gives G a rest and contributes? Therein is our biggest problem this year. Our subs are frosh, & sophs and the walking wounded. Look how well did Louisville do with only one of their guards suspended. Rak toyed with their subs for their bigs. Their guards couldn't hit open 3's nor penetrate most of the game.

Ron gave up easy fastbreak layups last night and that just can't happen. He is also no threat whatsoever except on the break. On the break he is tremendous in getting the ball where we can score. Otherwise his defender begs him to shoot by packing into the lane. They do the same with Joseph and Roberson. I am not sure opposing team can get any more players packed into the lane in this scenario. Duke did that and how did Rak do? (I am conveniently not talking about the muggings he endured 'cause Duke doesn't foul ).

My biggest problem with many (maybe you are not one of them) is the accusations of Cooney being selfish, a chucker, someone who shouldn't shoot even if wide open, someone who shouldn't shoot a curl when that is exactly what the play is run for, etc.

 

[djcon57]

My biggest problem with many (maybe you are not one of them) is the accusations of Cooney being selfish, a chucker, someone who shouldn't shoot even if wide open, someone who shouldn't shoot a curl when that is exactly what the play is run for, etc.

I don't think Cooney is selfish.

I think it's obvious he's a chucker though.

He's a textbook streaky shooter. It's up to the coach to determine if he's hot that night or not as most streak shooters don't have the off button in their head.

 

[MikeSU02]

You win this discussion if I had said Cooney should play 40 minutes. But I didn't. I would love for him to get a few minutes rest each half. I cringe however to think of Rak & G playing 2 on 5 for more than a minute or two. Who gives Rak a rest and contributes? Who gives G a rest and contributes? Therein is our biggest problem this year. Our subs are frosh, & sophs and the walking wounded. Look how well did Louisville do with only one of their guards suspended. Rak toyed with their subs for their bigs. Their guards couldn't hit open 3's nor penetrate most of the game.

Ron gave up easy fastbreak layups last night and that just can't happen. He is also no threat whatsoever except on the break. On the break he is tremendous in getting the ball where we can score. Otherwise his defender begs him to shoot by packing into the lane. They do the same with Joseph and Roberson. I am not sure opposing team can get any more players packed into the lane in this scenario. Duke did that and how did Rak do? (I am conveniently not talking about the muggings he endured 'cause Duke doesn't foul ).

My biggest problem with many (maybe you are not one of them) is the accusations of Cooney being selfish, a chucker, someone who shouldn't shoot even if wide open, someone who shouldn't shoot a curl when that is exactly what the play is run for, etc.

I'm not going to call him selfish because I don't know what the coaches tell him to do.

He is absolutely a chucker. A fourth year player with his TS% and eFG%, especially from three, is 100% a chucker and not a shooter. (And I'm using those percentages instead of FG% to try to help soften the blow against him)

People ask who else we have? Well, at this point, anyone. With TC's percentages, specifically with his conference percentages and even more specifically his trend lines from last year and this year, he needs to come out to rest more and stop shooting as much.

I may be beating a dead horse, but it's because people have a false identity for TC. And as long as we still think it's ok to have a green light and shoot us out of games, I'll keep pushing back on it.

He is taking over 14 FGA per game in conference. Over 9 threes per game in conference.

I've heard all the BS about how he's being guarded by only elite defenders and the night sweats each coach gets before having to game plan for him. He doesn't get special treatment. At all. He makes bad decisions and doesn't learn from his mistakes.

I'm sick of people blindly defending him when he is clearly making terrible choices on the court.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

NO one needs Trevor to take a shot from beyond the NBA 3-point line, unless the shot clock is at 1. He can't make that shot. But he took 4 of them last night. He must have gotten dressed down by JB at the half (FINALLY!) because he didn't take those shots in the second half.

And for the love of God, please someone tell him to stop trying to make fast break layups unless he's the only one on that side of the halfcourt line. Just terrible. Every single time.

His D looked slightly better last night, but them not having any actual decent 3-point shooters helps that.

My last complaint about Cooney and I'll stop. How is it that he couldn't/wouldn't try to take the walk-on off the dribble? That should have been automatic.

Did it ever occur to you that due to others scoring, Cooney was more than happy to play decoy? Did it occur to you his congratulatory pats on the back, with great big grins on his face, to Joseph and G and others has to do with being a great team player?

Rak was abusing Louisville inside for point blank shots and scoring every damn time, but somehow you want Cooney to start driving. Guess Cooney can't win in your eyes. Our offense finally starts clicking for awhile and Cooney is still the villain. That walk-on you mentioned was on the court for a reason. He made himself into a good contributing player. He is far from a normal walk-on. But you would have had to do a little research and watch the plays he has made in recent games both offensively and defensively to know that. Apparently his coach, Pitino, does know that.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Did it ever occur to you that due to others scoring, Cooney was more than happy to play decoy? Did it occur to you his congratulatory pats on the back, with great big grins on his face, to Joseph and G and others has to do with being a great team player?

Rak was abusing Louisville inside for point blank shots and scoring every damn time, but somehow you want Cooney to start driving. Guess Cooney can't win in your eyes. Our offense finally starts clicking for awhile and Cooney is still the villain. That walk-on you mentioned was on the court for a reason. He made himself into a good contributing player. He is far from a normal walk-on. But you would have had to do a little research and watch the plays he has made in recent games both offensively and defensively to know that. Apparently his coach, Pitino, does know that.

He's on the court because the starting PG got sat down for the night. Did you see the guy? He practically had 80s shorts on. Yes, I think Cooney should have been able to get by that guy all day every day. If not, then the comments others have made here about Cooney not being high D1 material might have some legitimacy.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

I'm not going to call him selfish because I don't know what the coaches tell him to do.

He is absolutely a chucker. A fourth year player with his TS% and eFG%, especially from three, is 100% a chucker and not a shooter. (And I'm using those percentages instead of FG% to try to help soften the blow against him)

People ask who else we have? Well, at this point, anyone. With TC's percentages, specifically with his conference percentages and even more specifically his trend lines from last year and this year, he needs to come out to rest more and stop shooting as much.

I may be beating a dead horse, but it's because people have a false identity for TC. And as long as we still think it's ok to have a green light and shoot us out of games, I'll keep pushing back on it.

He is taking over 14 FGA per game in conference. Over 9 threes per game in conference.

I've heard all the BS about how he's being guarded by only elite defenders and the night sweats each coach gets before having to game plan for him. He doesn't get special treatment. At all. He makes bad decisions and doesn't learn from his mistakes.

I'm sick of people blindly defending him when he is clearly making terrible choices on the court.

Your first sentence should tell you all you need to know. We have no one even remotely close to replacing him. It is his coaches who want him shooting. People on this board have no say about that. That might surprise you given your statement. Push all you want but I know I have never told him to shoot. I would if I could but I can't.

As for the BS about defenses, again you apparently think other coaches are full of it when they make those statements . You apparently think the announcers of our games are full of it when they point it out. But you know better. How precious. Just exactly what do you call a defender with his back to the rest of the court and facing Cooney within a foot of him? If thats normal defense then you are a great coach.

He's on the court because the starting PG got sat down for the night. Did you see the guy? He practically had 80s shorts on. Yes, I think Cooney should have been able to get by that guy all day every day. If not, then the comments others have made here about Cooney not being high D1 material might have some legitimacy.

There you go trying to think again. I also missed, in my years of experience, how important the shorts were. Here I always thought it was the shoes.Guess no one ever improves like that walk on has and Pitino doesn't know what he's doing. I'll be sure to let him know you are available.

Did you miss the part about Rak constantly getting the ball and scoring every single time? Guess SU should have stopped going to him so you could have Cooney driving . How does that make any sense at all? I understand your angst with Cooney as he is a head case with his shot again, but I would rather SU won the game than to see if Cooney could drive on that guy. Bottom line is we won and Cooney did not have to upstage Rak to do it. That is the point of a team game isn't it?

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Your first sentence should tell you all you need to know. We have no one even remotely close to replacing him. It is his coaches who want him shooting. People on this board have no say about that. That might surprise you given your statement. Push all you want but I know I have never told him to shoot. I would if I could but I can't.

As for the BS about defenses, again you apparently think other coaches are full of it when they make those statements . You apparently think the announcers of our games are full of it when they point it out. But you know better. How precious. Just exactly what do you call a defender with his back to the rest of the court and facing Cooney within a foot of him? If thats normal defense then you are a great coach.

There you go trying to think again. I also missed, in my years of experience, how important the shorts were. Here I always thought it was the shoes.Guess no one ever improves like that walk on has and Pitino doesn't know what he's doing. I'll be sure to let him know you are available.

Did you miss the part about Rak constantly getting the ball and scoring every single time? Guess SU should have stopped going to him so you could have Cooney driving . How does that make any sense at all? I understand your angst with Cooney as he is a head case with his shot again, but I would rather SU won the game than to see if Cooney could drive on that guy. Bottom line is we won and Cooney did not have to upstage Rak to do it. That is the point of a team game isn't it?

Your opinions are great. Amazing stuff. Well done.

Rak had 29 last night. He was amazing. Maybe Cooney could have helped out with taking some of the load off of him...successfully. He didn't

 

[MikeSU02]

As for the BS about defenses, again you apparently think other coaches are full of it when they make those statements . You apparently think the announcers of our games are full of it when they point it out. But you know better. How precious. Just exactly what do you call a defender with his back to the rest of the court and facing Cooney within a foot of him? If thats normal defense then you are a great coac

Please show me all these quotes that coaches have made speaking to TC's prowess. Please do.

I also call a defender with his back to the rest of the court and facing Cooney within a foot of him a defender that knows he is defending a one-dimensional player that isn't even that good at his one-dimension.

And, they aren't jamming him anymore. They are happy to switch on him. They are happy to sag off him.

We clearly don't agree on his abilities. It's fine.

We have been absolutely fine in the instances where Cooney has sat. I know Cooney is all world, but even the next MJ needs a breather.

 

[NineOneSeven]

You win this discussion if I had said Cooney should play 40 minutes. But I didn't. I would love for him to get a few minutes rest each half. I cringe however to think of Rak & G playing 2 on 5 for more than a minute or two. Who gives Rak a rest and contributes? Who gives G a rest and contributes? Therein is our biggest problem this year. Our subs are frosh, & sophs and the walking wounded. Look how well did Louisville do with only one of their guards suspended. Rak toyed with their subs for their bigs. Their guards couldn't hit open 3's nor penetrate most of the game.

Ron gave up easy fastbreak layups last night and that just can't happen. He is also no threat whatsoever except on the break. On the break he is tremendous in getting the ball where we can score. Otherwise his defender begs him to shoot by packing into the lane. They do the same with Joseph and Roberson. I am not sure opposing team can get any more players packed into the lane in this scenario. Duke did that and how did Rak do? (I am conveniently not talking about the muggings he endured 'cause Duke doesn't foul ).

My biggest problem with many (maybe you are not one of them) is the accusations of Cooney being selfish, a chucker, someone who shouldn't shoot even if wide open, someone who shouldn't shoot a curl when that is exactly what the play is run for, etc.

Where to start...

Cooney was also a reason for allowing transition buckets yesterday.

He has also has had some very inopportune defensive lapses this year. In fact, his d is very very average at best.

Again, I bet this sounds like I hate the kid. False. People who say he can't even sit for 2 minutes a half? It's laughable.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

Please show me all these quotes that coaches have made speaking to TC's prowess. Please do.

I also call a defender with his back to the rest of the court and facing Cooney within a foot of him a defender that knows he is defending a one-dimensional player that isn't even that good at his one-dimension.

And, they aren't jamming him anymore. They are happy to switch on him. They are happy to sag off him.

We clearly don't agree on his abilities. It's fine.

We have been absolutely fine in the instances where Cooney has sat. I know Cooney is all world, but even the next MJ needs a breather.

Read the articles when they are posted. Don't hit the mute button when/if you watch the games. Watch the post-game pressers by JB and also the opposing coaches. I refuse to do that for you. You might like to ask others on the forum if in fact my recollections about the opposing defenses are true.

Just for the record I don't think he is all-world nor MJ and have never stated such. But he surely isn't what you describe at length either.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

Where to start...

Cooney was also a reason for allowing transition buckets yesterday.

He has also has had some very inopportune defensive lapses this year. In fact, his d is very very average at best.

Again, I bet this sounds like I hate the kid. False. People who say he can't even sit for 2 minutes a half? It's laughable.

I wish he would sit for a few minutes each and every half. Rak got into foul trouble last night ...again... and sat for a few minutes. How well did that work? JB had to reinsert him before the game got away from us. Sitting Cooney or G does just about the same this year. It sucks, it limits how we play defense. It limits who we can sit for any length of time for offensive purposes. When you have only 3 threats offensively and nothing coming off the bench either, you have severe limitations. You also struggle late in games due to tiredness. The alternative is to give them rest and pray you don't fall too far behind. So as far as being laughable, I find nothing to laugh about when any of our three threats are on the bench. It scares the sellout of me and should scare the hell out of any SU fan. We have trouble enough putting points on the board.

I don't think anyone hates him, but there are a few that do condemn him. When they go off the wall and refuse to look at the whole picture I can't help but come to his defense. That doesn't mean I think he is infallible though. These black vs white (all-world vs DII player) arguments need several shades of gray to find the realities.

 

[Ghost]

Ron gave up easy fastbreak layups last night and that just can't happen. He is also no threat whatsoever except on the break. On the break he is tremendous in getting the ball where we can score. Otherwise his defender begs him to shoot by packing into the lane. They do the same with Joseph and Roberson. I am not sure opposing team can get any more players packed into the lane in this scenario. Duke did that and how did Rak do? (I am conveniently not talking about the muggings he endured 'cause Duke doesn't foul ).

Why can Cooney let it happen then if it just can't happen? They all make mistakes. It's only fine to highlight the ones that Cooney doesn't make?

Except on the break? He had at least two drives and dishes to Rak in the lane last night in half-court sets. I only see one assist, but maybe Rak was fouled on one. That would probably be more drives into the lane off the bounce with a dish underneath than Cooney has this month.

So, assuming you are right, and once Cooney leaves the court the offense falls apart, how does Rak score and we go on an 8-2 with Cooney on the bench against Pitt. A Pitt team that was on a 7-1 run when Cooney left the floor, and went on an 8-0 run when Cooney returned to the game. That's an actual occurrence - so explain.

I know the Cooney as religion side gets all upset that everyone is insulting him, but I think it's amazing that you all think so little of our subs that you don' think they could spell this kid for a few minutes each game - possibly more. They're not imbeciles walking around drooling on the court. Do they take bad shots? Yep. Do they offer up some skills that TC doesn't? Sure. Do they allow runouts at times? Yup, so does TC. Do they allow penetration at the top of the zone? Cooney does a ton, so, no danger there.

Sh***ing on the back-ups they way you all do is probably more harsh than what is being said about TC, but whatever...

So, again, for fun, how does that happen in the Pitt game? Because all I ever hear in these arguments is, you can't sit Trevor because, well, we simply cannot! Disaster will follow! I have no evidence of this - I just know it's true because he doesn't sit!!! So, when the game doesn't align with your belief (like Pitt), how did it occur? It's perfectly fine to say it's just a fluke. Why did Pitt kill us before and after TC went out though? It's all very confusing.

Rak was getting shots off at will against Duke - he was just a couple feet outside his norm, and missing btw. And, if that's happening even with TC on the court for 40 minutes, then I guess we have NOTHING to lose, eh?

 

[MikeSU02]

Read the articles when they are posted. Don't hit the mute button when/if you watch the games. Watch the post-game pressers by JB and also the opposing coaches. I refuse to do that for you. You might like to ask others on the forum if in fact my recollections about the opposing defenses are true.

Just for the record I don't think he is all-world nor MJ and have never stated such. But he surely isn't what you describe at length either.

Laughable.

You made the assertion that these coaches were making these quotes.

I called you on it.

It's on you to prove it.

Good luck finding these quotes.

 

[iommi]

Laughable.

You made the assertion that these coaches were making these quotes.

I called you on it.

It's on you to prove it.

Good luck finding these quotes.

After that, maybe he can find the lost city of Atlantis.

 

[rrlbees]

Cooney cannot pass (or will not) into the post

That's a board myth. And I watched that last night specifically since some genius said he was the program's all time worse.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

I don't think Cooney is selfish.

I think it's obvious he's a chucker though.

He's a textbook streaky shooter. It's up to the coach to determine if he's hot that night or not as most streak shooters don't have the off button in their head.

Hes a streak shooter alright. Streak of missing for an entire career.

 

[rrlbees]

Laughable. You made the assertion that these coaches were making these quotes. I called you on it. It's on you to prove it. Good luck finding these quotes.

I don't know if anyone can find a "quote" but I know at least 2 coaches have said it in post game interviews. I also know JB shares that sentiment.

 

[kcsu]

I think that Trevor is averaging 2.4 assist a game playing the entire game. That is basically one assist per entire half from a guard.