Cooney Debate/Criticism/Discussion Containment Thread

[rrlbees]

Cooney shot poorly. But he didn't do "nothing". Like the Duke game where he had 5 steals and 5 Rebs, last night he had 4 assts and was great (as was Joseph) on defense up top during the 2nd half. That played a big role in the win.

 

[rrlbees]

I think that Trevor is averaging 2.4 assist a game playing the entire game. That is basically one assist per entire half from a guard.

And he's not the PG nor asked to be the distributer. For context, G averages 1 more per game.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

He takes some bad shots. For a guy nearing the end of his 4th year in the program, he should be smarter about that. People can try to justify it all they want, but part of the reason why his shooting percentage is lower than what we think it can be is because he is comfortable taking bad shots that he's likely to miss.

 

[Ghost]

I don't know if anyone can find a "quote" but I know at least 2 coaches have said it in post game interviews. I also know JB shares that sentiment.

I recall one coach (I thought Pitino) saying it last year.

 

[Ghost]

That's a board myth. And I watched that last night specifically since some genius said he was the program's all time worse.

That's fair. I think we all engage in a bit of that (exaggeration). The myths on the other side is what leads to these debates though tbh.

I can think of a couple times last game where he got the ball inside. That being said, he's poor at it imo. He also runs pick-n-rolls extremely poorly rarely looking to dish, and when he does he often loops the pas so high it's worthless instead of looking to split the defenders.

The people that defend Cooney pretty much exaggerate everything to Paul Bunyan levels - most of the arguments revolve around him having to do all this stuff...as if bad shots r thrust upon him. As if two minutes on the bench would kill the team.

Honestly, I do think ppl take all of this as personal attacks on Cooney while pretty much pretending the bench is full of helmet-wearing dimwits. Never quite sure why one is okay, but the other isn't.

Gbinje does not take ONLY uncontested shots in spite of what's said to account for their shooting disparity. He gets more open looks sure, but ppl make it sound like he's NEVER shot with a close out.

The team hasn't embarrassed itself when Cooney has sat the few times its happened. In spite of assurances that it would lead to a fate worse than death.

His defense isn't extraordinary - he allows a ton of penetration. Even last game he failed to close out on the shooter - the same unforgivable error that leads to a benching most times for the other players.

So, do I think he's a poor post passer? Yep. Does he LITERALLY never make a pass into the post. Nope. I can concede that.

As always, I will provide the "we need Cooney" disclaimer. He's a very good player, and a bad shooting night against UL is no more an indictment of his skills than the Duke game was for Rak. He gets a ton of defensive attention most nights, and he and Patterson are light years ahead of KJ on defense.

 

[Alsacs]

I wish we could put Cooney's character in Eric Devendorf's game. Devendorf and Cooney are average at best defenders but Cooney atleast gets steals in the zone. Devo had a better offensive game. Cooney is one trick pony on offense while Devo could drive the ball and shoot.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/trevor-cooney-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/eric-devendorf-1.html

 

[Millhouse]

I wish we could put Cooney's character in Eric Devendorf's game. Devendorf and Cooney are average at best defenders but Cooney atleast gets steals in the zone. Devo had a better offensive game. Cooney is one trick pony on offense while Devo could drive the ball and shoot.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/trevor-cooney-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/eric-devendorf-1.html

never had a year less than 35% from 3. wow 37.8%

 

[SarasotaPaul]

Laughable.

You made the assertion that these coaches were making these quotes.

I called you on it.

It's on you to prove it.

Good luck finding these quotes.

Your credibility is shot. Not really sure how you can say anything about this team if you haven't read nor heard any of that. Have you watched any of the games on TV? Do you use the mute button if you do? Good grief how can you miss that all year long. I am comfortable knowing I am dead right here. Maybe (in your defense) you only go to home games and don't have the benefit of hearing announcers on TV explaining to you the defenses used on Cooney.

1 - Clemson head coach:
On Rod Hall’s defense on Trevor Cooney:

“It’s effort and discipline. Cooney is uncanny in his ability to search out the ball. Guys penetrate, he’s always moving to try and get a shot. It takes incredible discipline to not react to penetration. He creates his own offense as well as anyone that you’ll see.”

2 -“They just keep a guy with him the whole time, and he’s seen that before,” SU head coach Jim Boeheim said of what teams are doing to slow Cooney down. “St. John’s did the best job of it this year and Clemson, those are the two teams that have done the best job.

“They just didn’t leave him to help or do anything. Away (from the ball) on defense they just stay with him the whole time.”

3 - Jay Bilas (you do know who he is, right?) ND went "Box and One" against SU's Trevor Cooney, but made a critical error. Irish should've put the Box on Cooney, the One on the rest. Now I wonder...What is your interpretation of playing someone box on one? I hope its as good as your analysis of face guarding which was: I also call a defender with his back to the rest of the court and facing Cooney within a foot of him a defender that knows he is defending a one-dimensional player that isn't even that good at his one-dimension.

Given that one of these D1 head coaches is our own Jim Boeheim, I am still wondering how you have missed these types of remarks.

Now for Atlantis... :rolling:

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I wish he would sit for a few minutes each and every half. Rak got into foul trouble last night ...again... and sat for a few minutes. How well did that work? JB had to reinsert him before the game got away from us. Sitting Cooney or G does just about the same this year. It sucks, it limits how we play defense. It limits who we can sit for any length of time for offensive purposes. When you have only 3 threats offensively and nothing coming off the bench either, you have severe limitations. You also struggle late in games due to tiredness. The alternative is to give them rest and pray you don't fall too far behind. So as far as being laughable, I find nothing to laugh about when any of our three threats are on the bench. It scares the sellout of me and should scare the hell out of any SU fan. We have trouble enough putting points on the board.

I don't think anyone hates him, but there are a few that do condemn him. When they go off the wall and refuse to look at the whole picture I can't help but come to his defense. That doesn't mean I think he is infallible though. These black vs white (all-world vs DII player) arguments need several shades of gray to find the realities.

The difference between the guy who subs for Rak (Obokoh - a RS sophomore with a whopping total of less than 70 minutes played in his college career) and Ron Patterson is immense. That comparison sucks.

 

[Cusefan0307]

This whole thread is ridiculous, as is every thread on him. Nobody is ever going to agree.

Cooney's shooting percentage stinks, because he has terrible shot selection. If nobody sees that he has bad shot selection you are crazy. Also he is struggling on the break. He needs to improve there. I think Tuesday he just had a bad game shooting open shots. Sometimes I think the Forced shot selection is at the direction of his coach, but at the same time if you think his shot selection is good you lose some credibility.

His efficieny numbers would look better if he knew what a good shot was.

For the people who say he can't feed the post, I'm not too sure what you are watching because I was at the game Wednesday, like I am every game and saw him feed the post at least twice where Roc scored. So when people complain about this on Wednesday I think you lose some credibility.

Also, Kaleb and Trevor BOTH did a great job in the second half stopping dribble penetration against Rozier. All in all, Kaleb, Trevor, and Mike did a great job handling Louisvilles pressure. Actually Louisville dialed back their pressure just a bit probably because they lacked players.

All in all it's gotten to the point where it's difficult to listen to the detractors or the supporters because at this point I don't think either side is capable of analyzing his game in a fair way.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

The difference between the guy who subs for Rak (Obokoh - a RS sophomore with a whopping total of less than 70 minutes played in his college career) and Ron Patterson is immense. That comparison sucks.

So you are saying Patterson is a viable offensive threat at this point in his career? Patterson is way better defensively , but the problem is on the offensive end of the floor. There is no doubt Patterson should be on the floor more than Obokoh right now. But 2 vs 5 on offense works a lot worse than 3 on 5.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

So you are saying Patterson is a viable offensive threat at this point in his career? Patterson is way better defensively , but the problem is on the offensive end of the floor. There is no doubt Patterson should be on the floor more than Obokoh right now. But 2 vs 5 on offense works a lot worse than 3 on 5.

For 3-6 minutes a game, yes I am saying Patterson is a more viable offensive threat than Obokoh. With Rak and Gbinijie on the floor you have two of the best scorers in the NCAA on the floor, so getting Cooney a couple minutes rest each half would be just great and our team would be fine. It could improve his efficiency when he came back in after getting some rest, and will save his legs for the end of the game where he has been just miserable lately. That's all we are saying. Just a few minutes here and there. NOT AN ENTIRE HALF.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

This whole thread is ridiculous, as is every thread on him. Nobody is ever going to agree.

Cooney's shooting percentage stinks, because he has terrible shot selection. If nobody sees that he has bad shot selection you are crazy. Also he is struggling on the break. He needs to improve there. I think Tuesday he just had a bad game shooting open shots. Sometimes I think the Forced shot selection is at the direction of his coach, but at the same time if you think his shot selection is good you lose some credibility.

His effiecieny numbers would look better if he knew what a good shot was.

For the people who say he can't feed the post, I'm not too sure what you are watching because I was at the game Wednesday, like I am every game and saw him feed the post at least twice where Roc scored. So when people complain about this on Wednesday I think you lose some credibility.

Also, Kaleb and Trevor BOTH did a great job in the second half stopping dribble penetration against Rozier. All in all, Kaleb, Trevor, and Mike did a great job handling Louisvilles pressure. Actually Louisville dialed back their pressure just a bit probably because they lacked players.

All in all it's gotten to the point where it's difficult to listen to the detractors or the supporters because at this point I don't think either side is capable of analyzing his game in a fair way.

The problem is neither side (and I am as guilty as any) gives much acknowledgement to the partial truths of the other side. We all get way to caught up in the parts we know are bogus and/or read things into the other side's arguments that aren't there or weren't intended. From there it tends to become personal at which point fairness isn't possible.

I for one appreciate your post and bringing me somewhat back into line. Well done. We all want SU to do well and win every game.

 

[rrlbees]

I recall one coach (I thought Pitino) saying it last year.

I'm too old to have a memory that goes back a year. Lol.

 

[MikeSU02]

Your credibility is shot. Not really sure how you can say anything about this team if you haven't read nor heard any of that. Have you watched any of the games on TV? Do you use the mute button if you do? Good grief how can you miss that all year long. I am comfortable knowing I am dead right here. Maybe (in your defense) you only go to home games and don't have the benefit of hearing announcers on TV explaining to you the defenses used on Cooney.

1 - Clemson head coach:
On Rod Hall’s defense on Trevor Cooney:

“It’s effort and discipline. Cooney is uncanny in his ability to search out the ball. Guys penetrate, he’s always moving to try and get a shot. It takes incredible discipline to not react to penetration. He creates his own offense as well as anyone that you’ll see.”

2 -“They just keep a guy with him the whole time, and he’s seen that before,” SU head coach Jim Boeheim said of what teams are doing to slow Cooney down. “St. John’s did the best job of it this year and Clemson, those are the two teams that have done the best job.

“They just didn’t leave him to help or do anything. Away (from the ball) on defense they just stay with him the whole time.”

3 - Jay Bilas (you do know who he is, right?) ND went "Box and One" against SU's Trevor Cooney, but made a critical error. Irish should've put the Box on Cooney, the One on the rest. Now I wonder...What is your interpretation of playing someone box on one? I hope its as good as your analysis of face guarding which was: I also call a defender with his back to the rest of the court and facing Cooney within a foot of him a defender that knows he is defending a one-dimensional player that isn't even that good at his one-dimension.

Given that one of these D1 head coaches is our own Jim Boeheim, I am still wondering how you have missed these types of remarks.

Now for Atlantis... :rolling:

Got it. So one opposing coach. The legendary Brad Brownell.

Jay Bilas' (not a coach) quote came after TC's best game of his whole career and it was last year. Nice job cherry picking. Can I show you what TC did after that game? It was ugly.

We can agree to disagree on TC.

His career conference TS% and eFG% are .469 and .440 respectively and this year's numbers are just about those (.474 and .440).

If you think coaches are consistently game planning for those percentages I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

I've stated numerous times I don't think TC is a bad player. I think he is a good player. He is not an efficient player. He is not a smart player. He is a volume shooter that hurts us due to his inability to put the ball in the basket at a high percentage because he cannot do anything else. If you don't think that, that is fine. But the numbers back me up across the board.

Maybe you've had one too many at the Daiquiri Deck in Siesta Key to recognize what TC is and realize that he doesn't pose an imminent threat like G and Rak do to opposing teams. Is he going to go off once in a while? Sure. When you shoot a million times a game, that happens. A broken clock is right at least twice a day.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

Got it. So one opposing coach. The legendary Brad Brownell.

Jay Bilas' (not a coach) quote came after TC's best game of his whole career and it was last year. Nice job cherry picking. Can I show you what TC did after that game? It was ugly.

We can agree to disagree on TC.

His career conference TS% and eFG% are .469 and .440 respectively and this year's numbers are just about those (.474 and .440).

If you think coaches are consistently game planning for those percentages I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

I've stated numerous times I don't think TC is a bad player. I think he is a good player. He is not an efficient player. He is not a smart player. He is a volume shooter that hurts us due to his inability to put the ball in the basket at a high percentage because he cannot do anything else. If you don't think that, that is fine. But the numbers back me up across the board.

Maybe you've had one too many at the Daiquiri Deck in Siesta Key to recognize what TC is and realize that he doesn't pose an imminent threat like G and Rak do to opposing teams. Is he going to go off once in a while? Sure. When you shoot a million times a game, that happens. A broken clock is right at least twice a day.

Hey you asked for backup and you got it. These are not isolated comments either. Your statement that no one plays anything special vs Cooney is just not accurate. Not last year and not this year. I know what the stats are and a large part of that is due to the special defenses used against him. Unfortunately these are too often effective vs SU and Cooney.

I also never said all the comments were all from coaches. In fact I stated they also came from game announcers. I gladly have Jay Bilas' expertise backing up my statements. I wish I had the basketball knowledge he has. He has some excellent credentials when it comes to the game of basketball, don't you think? He also is not the only announcer to call out the special defenses played vs Cooney. Besides, I don't want to deprive you of that beautiful bridge in your back yard. I was wondering where it went.

And now for my more civilized side. Right now we are in a deep freeze (Florida style) and it got below 32 degrees. Given that, I am not about to go to the beach. SKOB's is my choice for a sports bar though. Siesta Key Beach just got named by TripAdvisor as the number one beach. This is the second time they have won a best beach award in the last 3 years. Come down Sunday when the temps hit the 80's and we can both get a few Daiquiris. I'll buy the first round and we can discuss the Pittsburg football team's showing against our basketball team noon Saturday. Not sure there is another team I dislike more than Pitt.

 

[Millhouse]

Got it. So one opposing coach. The legendary Brad Brownell.

Jay Bilas' (not a coach) quote came after TC's best game of his whole career and it was last year. Nice job cherry picking. Can I show you what TC did after that game? It was ugly.

We can agree to disagree on TC.

His career conference TS% and eFG% are .469 and .440 respectively and this year's numbers are just about those (.474 and .440).

If you think coaches are consistently game planning for those percentages I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

I've stated numerous times I don't think TC is a bad player. I think he is a good player. He is not an efficient player. He is not a smart player. He is a volume shooter that hurts us due to his inability to put the ball in the basket at a high percentage because he cannot do anything else. If you don't think that, that is fine. But the numbers back me up across the board.

Maybe you've had one too many at the Daiquiri Deck in Siesta Key to recognize what TC is and realize that he doesn't pose an imminent threat like G and Rak do to opposing teams. Is he going to go off once in a while? Sure. When you shoot a million times a game, that happens. A broken clock is right at least twice a day.

i showed just how rare it is for a guy to shoot this much this poorly and those teams are not very good at all. the only responses I could get were some silly mindreading from moqui, dead horse stuff, and looking at conference only is unfair

have there not been enough conference games for people? maybe it's too small a sample but I don't think so

i think the bad shots mess with his head, he's in such a hurry to "get going" and it snowballs for him. i don't think he's as bad at shooting the ball as his numbers show. i think that the bad misses get him and then he gets tight. but how can i really know this, it's just a guess

 

[Ghost]

Got it. So one opposing coach. The legendary Brad Brownell.

Jay Bilas' (not a coach) quote came after TC's best game of his whole career and it was last year. Nice job cherry picking. Can I show you what TC did after that game? It was ugly.

We can agree to disagree on TC.

His career conference TS% and eFG% are .469 and .440 respectively and this year's numbers are just about those (.474 and .440).

If you think coaches are consistently game planning for those percentages I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

I'm sure coaches do take him into consideration. Coaches also regularly engage in hyperbole about opposing players.

JB said Otto Porter was the best SF in Big East history a couple years ago...I can't fathom he really thinks that.

Bilas says nutty crap all the time. He once said during BT's Sophomore year he was the best player on the team - it was repeated endlessly for three years as support for everything - including his inevitable place in the NBA. He also said Scoop was the most important player on the team the same year - nobody much cared, because it was in the midst of the Scoop-tard era...but point is, he says a lot of stuff with 2 hours to kill.

I'm sure if u invested enough time though coaches have said TC is a tough match-up. Very tough - he runs around non-stop. He does get 40 minutes of hell treatment quite a bit. I don't think that means teams are terrified of him - we will scheme to stop the WF foreign dude next time out. Doesn't mean we r terrified. UL didn't guard him tight - but if asked Im sure Pitino game planned for him too.

TC is solid. Still got my concerns though...Hopefully he buries Pitt all the same this weekend...the team functions best when he's hitting shots and under control.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

So you are saying Patterson is a viable offensive threat at this point in his career? Patterson is way better defensively , but the problem is on the offensive end of the floor. There is no doubt Patterson should be on the floor more than Obokoh right now. But 2 vs 5 on offense works a lot worse than 3 on 5.

Seeing as how we don't actually let Obokoh touch the ball on offense, I would say that Patterson is better.

 

[MikeSU02]

Hey you asked for backup and you got it. These are not isolated comments either. Your statement that no one plays anything special vs Cooney is just not accurate. Not last year and not this year. I know what the stats are and a large part of that is due to the special defenses used against him. Unfortunately these are too often effective vs SU and Cooney.

I also never said all the comments were all from coaches. In fact I stated they also came from game announcers. I gladly have Jay Bilas' expertise backing up my statements. I wish I had the basketball knowledge he has. He has some excellent credentials when it comes to the game of basketball, don't you think? He also is not the only announcer to call out the special defenses played vs Cooney. Besides, I don't want to deprive you of that beautiful bridge in your back yard. I was wondering where it went.

And now for my more civilized side. Right now we are in a deep freeze (Florida style) and it got below 32 degrees. Given that, I am not about to go to the beach. SKOB's is my choice for a sports bar though. Siesta Key Beach just got named by TripAdvisor as the number one beach. This is the second time they have won a best beach award in the last 3 years. Come down Sunday when the temps hit the 80's and we can both get a few Daiquiris. I'll buy the first round and we can discuss the Pittsburg football team's showing against our basketball team noon Saturday. Not sure there is another team I dislike more than Pitt.

I've had family in Sarasota for a while. I popped into Daiquiri Deck one day to get out of the sun and basically never left happy hour. Siesta Key is heaven on earth. Cheers to a lively discussion.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Some folks don't let little things like numbers and analysis get in the way of a good story about a young kid who works hard and plays the game the right way.

Some people still don't trust math.

 

[Jake]

How about we put Cooney on the side of Rak and when they double Rak, if they double, Cooney gets some great looks, if no double Rak goes to work. If they take away all those options run pick n roll with G. It's pretty obvious G and Rak are above and beyond our best players, no need to force Kobe Bryant in his prime type shots for Cooney.

The doubles aren't coming from the perimeter defender, they're coming mostly from the week side baseline, = roberson's guy.

If you're an opposing coach, you leave Roberson open, not Cooney.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Just don't take bad shots...that what I'd do.

 

[Cusefan0307]

i showed just how rare it is for a guy to shoot this much this poorly and those teams are not very good at all. the only responses I could get were some silly mindreading from moqui, dead horse stuff, and looking at conference only is unfair

have there not been enough conference games for people? maybe it's too small a sample but I don't think so

i think the bad shots mess with his head, he's in such a hurry to "get going" and it snowballs for him. i don't think he's as bad at shooting the ball as his numbers show. i think that the bad misses get him and then he gets tight. but how can i really know this, it's just a guess

My point about the conference games was it is not 2006. We aren't playing 13 Colgates anymore like we used to. There is no difference in competition playing Villanova in December than there is playing Boston College in February, except it's obvious Boston College is a worse team.

When such analysis is done, it seems to me you want to say he doesn't play as well against good competition, which i frankly believe to be false. He's played well against good competition both this year and last and he's had just as poor shooting games in November against Holy Cross as he did against Louisville.

I tend to believe his terrible shot selection and lack of rest have contributed to his diminishing returns the last two years more than who the heck we are playing, but you are just like the Cooney Supporters you are trying to disprove. You're only trying to prove your side of the argument true.