Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

KellySyracuse

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But it isn't really. All the traffic flows into downtown. Getting to the hill is already a nightmare from 81. That is why I get off before I hit the viaduct and take the city streets.
oh I agree, I avoid that section of 81 at all costs especially when going to the hill for anything. I get that people are concerned about commute time changes especially with all the propaganda paid for by Congel and the Pilot gas station owner pushing for a tunnel. If a new, bigger viaduct or tunnel option ends up being the choice expect to add more years to the construction timeline. Then see how much your commute time is affected
 

FrancoPizza

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"Not going to develop anything" is an opinion. You don't know that.
If some developer wants to build something, then they should be able to come forward with specific plans and contractual agreements that they will follow through. To date, all we hear is talk and that's not good enough to serve as a basis for such a huge decision. Congel was villified because all he did was talk about pretty renderings without specific agreements in place. Well guess what? All we're seeing now are pretty renderings of giant maple trees and no developer has come forward to say I will build X, Y, and Z if the highway comes down. The other issue is any land that opens up is going to be a narrow stretch on both sides of the boulevard. You can't really put anything there bigger than a Dunkin Donuts.

If they really want to raise the land value in that area, then yes take the highway down, but then the following needs to happen (some of which is already proposed by the Mayor's office):

  1. Raze the public housing in the blocks adjacent to the highway (proposed)
  2. Build 1 or 2 20-story, low-rent apartments and condos set several hundred yards back from the boulevard to replace the dilapidated public housing. By going vertical, dozens of acres can be freed up for development by SU, Lex Luthor Inc., and the hospitals who are always looking for more land.
  3. Add some greenspace adjacent to the towers to soften the property and provide some separation between the subsidized and non-subsidized development.
  4. Provide new billboard advertising at a discounted rate along the 481 stretch that would take traffic away from destiny, crowne plaza, maplewood suites, and any other business that can make a legitimate claim to be affected by reduced traffic volumes.
If this happened I would be in 100% support of the grid even with the added commute times. I don't want to hear any complaints about apartment towers being an unfair option for those who are on public assistance. The mayor's plan to provide new single-story housing at taxpayer expense does nothing to encourage the affected residents to get off public assistance, which should be the goal and carry penaties for not meeting deadlines and showing any effort to find work. It's also the biggest joke around that SU professors and neurosurgeons are going to CHOOSE to live next to those who are paying less rent than they are, while pretending that crime and drug issues will suddenly go away. Might as well name that development Unicorn Heights.

Jesus H Christ I feel like I need to run for Mayor in the next election cycle to save this town.
 
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maxxyz

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If some developer wants to build something, then they should be able to come forward with specific plans and contractual agreements that they will follow through. To date, all we hear is talk and that's not good enough to serve as a basis for such a huge decision. Congel was villified because all he did was talk about pretty renderings without specific agreements in place. Well guess what? All we're seeing now are pretty renderings of giant maple trees and no developer has come forward to say I will build X, Y, and Z if the highway comes down. The other issue is any land that opens up is going to be a narrow stretch on both sides of the boulevard. You can't really put anything there bigger than a Dunkin Donuts.
Congel was vilified because he's a shyster con man with a history of bad faith deal making.

No developer is going to spend any money to create a development plan until the decision is made on what the final 81 solution is. If there is one area of the city that has consistently had lots of private money for investment its downtown. The community grid option will create full blocks of land to develop. You could put thirty dunkin donuts, so buy a franchise.

If I have a concern, its that there will likely be backroom deals on the land that comes available. Someone is going to make money on this.
 

FrancoPizza

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The community grid option will create full blocks of land to develop. You could put thirty dunkin donuts, so buy a franchise.
The blocks would be extremely narrow - thus limiting what could be developed. I'm not going to spend more time in traffic just for dunkin donuts or a 7-11.

And I call BS on developers requiring a decision to make a proposal. Developers don't sit around waiting for a pristine piece of land to become available if they really sense a great opportunity. If the demand is there, developers would be lobbying hard to win public approval for a project with announcements, consultations, renderings, tax breaks, etc.

There is no demand for new business development downtown outside of SU/Upstate. There is still a glut of commercial office space that nobody wants. The kennedy square redevelopment has nothing to show for it after all these years.
 

maxxyz

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The blocks would be extremely narrow - thus limiting what could be developed. I'm not going to spend more time in traffic just for dunkin donuts or a 7-11.
OK. I'm going to put a highway thru your neighborhood.

And I call BS on developers requiring a decision to make a proposal. Developers don't sit around waiting for a pristine piece of land to become available if they really sense a great opportunity. If the demand is there, developers would be lobbying hard to win public approval for a project with announcements, consultations, renderings, tax breaks, etc.
You can call BS, but you'd be wrong. They're not going to spend $100K-500K on a feasibility study until they have the data to do it. Not four sets of data.

There is no demand for new business development downtown outside of SU/Upstate.
How many hotels in the downtown metro area have opened in the last five years? Hotel Syracuse, Crown Plaza, Marriot Courtyard. Add the Loft and Parkview if you widen the area a bit. Apartments and condos are at capacity and fill up as soon as they are built. And businesses are relocating to downtown. There's lots of interest in downtown real estate.
 

IthacaMatt

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Congel was vilified because he's a shyster con man with a history of bad faith deal making.

No developer is going to spend any money to create a development plan until the decision is made on what the final 81 solution is. If there is one area of the city that has consistently had lots of private money for investment its downtown. The community grid option will create full blocks of land to develop. You could put thirty dunkin donuts, so buy a franchise.

If I have a concern, its that there will likely be backroom deals on the land that comes available. Someone is going to make money on this.

Yes, certain developers in this community are well connected, and will get first dibs.
And then the University and the hospitals will buy and develop whatever else is available.
With the Community Grid option, you are basically adding about a mile of future Genesee Street / Irving Ave type of development.
 

IthacaMatt

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The blocks would be extremely narrow - thus limiting what could be developed. I'm not going to spend more time in traffic just for dunkin donuts or a 7-11.

And I call BS on developers requiring a decision to make a proposal. Developers don't sit around waiting for a pristine piece of land to become available if they really sense a great opportunity. If the demand is there, developers would be lobbying hard to win public approval for a project with announcements, consultations, renderings, tax breaks, etc.

There is no demand for new business development downtown outside of SU/Upstate. There is still a glut of commercial office space that nobody wants. The kennedy square redevelopment has nothing to show for it after all these years.

You don't know that. They might eliminate some blocks, just like they did with Madison Street. There will be city planners involved, and they know that they have to make wider streets in order to accommodate additional local traffic. They know which intersections will be the most impacted.
 

OttoMets

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You don't know that. They might eliminate some blocks, just like they did with Madison Street. There will be city planners involved, and they know that they have to make wider streets in order to accommodate additional local traffic. They know which intersections will be the most impacted.
Nah, if anything, Madison, Cedar, and some of the presidential streets in Pioneers homes will be reconnected with the grid - thus the effectiveness of the grid.
 

JeremyCuse

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As a local who is admittedly bad trying to keep track of all of the different routes and byways and viaducts etc does anyone have a map or a rendering of what the current set up is now and what would change with the community grid? I have tried to wrap my mind around it from these informative posts but im giving myself a headache, lol.
 

IthacaMatt

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Isn't Bear Road north of the section of 81 that will be decommissioned in the grid plan?

And nothing about any proposed solution with this project is simple.

81 will terminate at Spencer St., I believe, which is south of the mall. From the other direction, it terminates in a series of exits (3, I believe) between Brighton and Adams I don't think the last exit will be Adams St., the current exit for SU and the hospitals.

I think I read that one of the exits will be between Kennedy and MLK Streets. That's around the end of Oakwood Cemetery and a couple blocks from the Fine Lot. I think Van Buren might be another off ramp to local streets.

City-bound traffic from the South will be routed onto State St., Salina St. and Oakwood Ave, which turns into Townsend Street.
 

JeremyCuse

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NYSDOT had some better renderings in 2016 during the first draft DEIS process, but I don't have them handy. They were similar to what you see on Page 23-30 of this: http://www.aiacny.org/assets/I-81-Booklet-2014-09-03-2page-spread.pdf
I need to pick you up so you can give an idiot like me a visual tour to understand what the CG option would look like as it seems thats the way the State maybe leaning. I assume if your taking a trip that requires the use of 81 South you simply would need to take the surface roads until the highway picks backup again somewhere down the line?
 

OttoMets

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I need to pick you up so you can give an idiot like me a visual tour to understand what the CG option would look like as it seems thats the way the State maybe leaning. I assume if your taking a trip that requires the use of 81 South you simply would need to take the surface roads until the highway picks backup again somewhere down the line?
Anytime! Not compatible with beer-drinking, unfortunately.

Basically, north of 690 is where 81 would look the same. Except it'd have a different name (681 or something like that and might have a couple more off/on-ramps. South of 690 there would only be Almond Street without the viaduct next to it. That would continue down to at least East Castle/MLK; Almond would be extended down the corridor just west of our tailgate spot, under the rail line where 81 currently goes over. It might -- we'll see -- continue like this down the East Colvin or even East Brighton. Either way, there will be more off-ramps from Brighton on up to Castle/MLK.

So if you're looking to come from the north to 81 south, you'd probably take Almond/State/Salina to a place where you can pick up 81.
 

Newhouser

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OK. I'm going to put a highway thru your neighborhood.



You can call BS, but you'd be wrong. They're not going to spend $100K-500K on a feasibility study until they have the data to do it. Not four sets of data.



How many hotels in the downtown metro area have opened in the last five years? Hotel Syracuse, Crown Plaza, Marriot Courtyard. Add the Loft and Parkview if you widen the area a bit. Apartments and condos are at capacity and fill up as soon as they are built. And businesses are relocating to downtown. There's lots of interest in downtown real estate.
Crowne Plaza didn't open just rebranded. Parkview has been opened as well. Hotel Syracuse was opened but we shall see if it can last once its tax forgiveness vanishes. There is a lot of building but I think it is displacing and not fulfilling a bigger need.
 

maxxyz

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Crowne Plaza didn't open just rebranded. Parkview has been opened as well. Hotel Syracuse was opened but we shall see if it can last once its tax forgiveness vanishes. There is a lot of building but I think it is displacing and not fulfilling a bigger need.
So the value of downtown real estate is solid, which was the point .
 

Cusefan0307

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If some developer wants to build something, then they should be able to come forward with specific plans and contractual agreements that they will follow through. To date, all we hear is talk and that's not good enough to serve as a basis for such a huge decision. Congel was villified because all he did was talk about pretty renderings without specific agreements in place. Well guess what? All we're seeing now are pretty renderings of giant maple trees and no developer has come forward to say I will build X, Y, and Z if the highway comes down. The other issue is any land that opens up is going to be a narrow stretch on both sides of the boulevard. You can't really put anything there bigger than a Dunkin Donuts.
There’s a certain group of people who want the grid to fail to prove their politics right and if I had to take a guess you are one of them based upon who you got a like from...

Weird people are ok spending 3 billion dollars here compared to a billion.
 

FrancoPizza

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Weird people are ok spending 3 billion dollars here compared to a billion.
The extra $2B would be a boon to the local hospitality and dining establishments. And it would last several years. Otherwise cuomo will find another city to spend that money.
 

Cusefan0307

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The extra $2B would be a boon to the local hospitality and dining establishments. And it would last several years. Otherwise cuomo will find another city to spend our tax dollars.
Pretty sure 80 percent of the money is coming from the Feds just like for every major DOT project.
 

FrancoPizza

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There’s a certain group of people who want the grid to fail to prove their politics right
Pot calling the kettle...

How is that any different than grid advocates hoping the tunnel fails so they can test out their kumbaya and real estate theories (and the suburbanites-are-deplorable-and-don't-deserve-a say mantra)?
 

Fly Rodder

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Pot calling the kettle...

How is that any different than grid advocates hoping the tunnel fails so they can test out their kumbaya and real estate theories (and the suburbanites-are-deplorable-and-don't-deserve-a say mantra)?
Would you be for a tunnel with a toll and/or if you lived in Eastwood?
 

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