Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[xc84]

Baldwinsville, NY to LaFayette, NY = 24.6 miles/~29 minutes via 690/81S
Baldwinsville, NY to LaFayette, NY = 32.6 miles/~36 minutes via 690/481S

Seven minutes difference. Whatever will the poor people of Baldwinsville do when they want to go the Apple Festival? And that doesn't even take into account that they can still drive the boulevard replacement.

People will do the quickest route:



Baldwinsville to Lafayette: + 4 minutes.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Baldwinsville, NY to LaFayette, NY = 24.6 miles/~29 minutes via 690/81S
Baldwinsville, NY to LaFayette, NY = 32.6 miles/~36 minutes via 690/481S

Seven minutes difference. Whatever will the poor people of Baldwinsville do when they want to go the Apple Festival? And that doesn't even take into account that they can still drive the boulevard replacement.

Pretty condescending. Who really believes those estimates? lol Just catch 1 traffic light and that will be 3 minutes. I have some great property in the Cicero swamp. Regardless.. it's the attitude...

Sadly just gives more people reasons not to head to the city but for Baldwinsville to head to either the route 31 Clay corridor , Camillus Township etc. I don't even live in B'ville either saying this. Doctors, one day surgeries, urgent cares have already moved away from the city proper. I am a big supporter of the city , having been brought up, schooled in the city, purchasing our first home there after marrying. I only moved to the northern suburbs because I got a job in Oswego county after my city mfg company moved to Tennessee.. After 6 months driving from the city (trying hard to make it work) with no quick access to a highway from the Bellevue CC area to Oswego county adding a minimum of at least a half hour to my daily commute, we reluctantly moved to the northern suburbs off 481 near Great Northern. Ignoring the fate of an interstate to only city resident concerns is short sighted. I fought everyday with coworkers, neighbors etc the misconceptions of the city and dismissing commuting concerns will only accelerate the city vs county divisiveness that has been promoted. It seems that's how winners are currently being crowned, by how divisive and dismissive they can be of other groups serious concerns while respect and conciliatory proposals are considered a sign of weakness. Just sad.

 

[xc84]

Pretty condescending. Who really believes those estimates? lol Just catch 1 traffic light and that will be 3 minutes. I have some great property in the Cicero swamp. Regardless.. it's the attitude...

Sadly just gives more people reasons not to head to the city but for Baldwinsville to head to either the route 31 Clay corridor , Camillus Township etc. I don't even live in B'ville either saying this. Doctors, one day surgeries, urgent cares have already moved away from the city proper. I am a big supporter of the city , having been brought up, schooled in the city, purchasing our first home there after marrying. I only moved to the northern suburbs because I got a job in Oswego county after my city mfg company moved to Tennessee.. After 6 months driving from the city (trying hard to make it work) with no quick access to a highway from the Bellevue CC area to Oswego county adding a minimum of at least a half hour to my daily commute, we reluctantly moved to the northern suburbs off 481 near Great Northern. Ignoring the fate of an interstate to only city resident concerns is short sighted. I fought everyday with coworkers, neighbors etc the misconceptions of the city and dismissing commuting concerns will only accelerate the city vs county divisiveness that has been promoted. It seems that's how winners are currently being crowned, by how divisive and dismissive they can be of other groups serious concerns while respect and conciliatory proposals are considered a sign of weakness. Just sad.

You don't trust the estimates from Google Maps that he provided? Why would someone not head into the city? It's even easier with the grid to get from B-ville to downtown. That's the gimme. The other estimates from the DOT show only slight differences (minutes). Not one is ignoring the fate of an interstate. The interstate goes to where it should have been from the start...around downtown. To me, the grid is the best and happens to be the least expensive option. That's why it is a winner. However, the dopes who want to pay triple the cost of the grid on a tunnel seem to be leading the pack right now.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Pretty condescending. Who really believes those estimates? lol Just catch 1 traffic light and that will be 3 minutes. I have some great property in the Cicero swamp. Regardless.. it's the attitude...

Sadly just gives more people reasons not to head to the city but for Baldwinsville to head to either the route 31 Clay corridor , Camillus Township etc. I don't even live in B'ville either saying this. Doctors, one day surgeries, urgent cares have already moved away from the city proper. I am a big supporter of the city , having been brought up, schooled in the city, purchasing our first home there after marrying. I only moved to the northern suburbs because I got a job in Oswego county after my city mfg company moved to Tennessee.. After 6 months driving from the city (trying hard to make it work) with no quick access to a highway from the Bellevue CC area to Oswego county adding a minimum of at least a half hour to my daily commute, we reluctantly moved to the northern suburbs off 481 near Great Northern. Ignoring the fate of an interstate to only city resident concerns is short sighted. I fought everyday with coworkers, neighbors etc the misconceptions of the city and dismissing commuting concerns will only accelerate the city vs county divisiveness that has been promoted. It seems that's how winners are currently being crowned, by how divisive and dismissive they can be of other groups serious concerns while respect and conciliatory proposals are considered a sign of weakness. Just sad.

Wow, there's a lot to unpack there. My post wasn't condescending and I didn't mean it as such. Only to point out that saving a handful of minutes for suburban commuters who don't make up the city tax base is an incredibly poor and selfish justification to maintain a huge sink on city property values. There are piles of cities across the country tearing down central arteries and highways and replacing them with ring roads because it makes sense.

Who really believes those estimates?

I'm sure your report is forthcoming. I, personally, trust the work of professionals.

 

[UnknownOrange]

By 2050 I should be in a jet pack so all of this tunnel talk is silly

 

[maxxyz]

Sadly just gives more people reasons not to head to the city but for Baldwinsville to head to either the route 31 Clay corridor , Camillus Township etc. I don't even live in B'ville either saying this. Doctors, one day surgeries, urgent cares have already moved away from the city proper. I am a big supporter of the city , having been brought up, schooled in the city, purchasing our first home there after marrying. I only moved to the northern suburbs because I got a job in Oswego county after my city mfg company moved to Tennessee.. After 6 months driving from the city (trying hard to make it work) with no quick access to a highway from the Bellevue CC area to Oswego county adding a minimum of at least a half hour to my daily commute, we reluctantly moved to the northern suburbs off 481 near Great Northern. Ignoring the fate of an interstate to only city resident concerns is short sighted. I fought everyday with coworkers, neighbors etc the misconceptions of the city and dismissing commuting concerns will only accelerate the city vs county divisiveness that has been promoted. It seems that's how winners are currently being crowned, by how divisive and dismissive they can be of other groups serious concerns while respect and conciliatory proposals are considered a sign of weakness. Just sad.

I respectfully disagree with you.

You moved to the suburbs to shorten your commute which makes perfect sense. Whatever change comes from the 81 renovation you still would have wanted to move closer to work. The point being made is that average commuting times will change by a few minutes, not 30.

Every study on elevated highways bisecting cities supports the consensus that they have devistating consequences; segmenting populations, lowering property values, stifling growth, and stimulating the suburban migration. The price of an extra five minutes on some commutes is a small price to pay for the long term health of the city.

Now if you want to argue what choice is to be made on the type of replacement for that 1.5 mile section of 81, have at it. But there is no reasonable argument that it shouldnt be done.

 

[FrancoPizza]

There are piles of cities across the country tearing down central arteries and highways and replacing them with ring roads because it makes sense.

481 is a half ring. If we already had a complete loop I doubt there would be any debate about tearing it down. The nearsighted decision to not complete the loop in the 70s is the reason we are now in this mess.

I’m personally disappointed that an investigation into finishing the loop was quickly dismissed with a fraction of the effort that’s currently going into this tunnel debate. Are you telling me we can’t find some creative ways to explore a western bypass? If it’s a matter of eminent domain I’m sure most homeowners would consider relocating if the price is high enough.

 

[Fly Rodder]

I’m personally disappointed that an investigation into finishing the loop was quickly dismissed with a fraction of the effort that’s currently going into this tunnel debate. Are you telling me we can’t find some creative ways to explore a western bypass?

My guess is that they can't justify the money to service such a small population.

Completion of I-481 west of Syracuse (the “Western Bypass”). The NYSDOT’s I-81 Corridor Study (July 2013) indicated that the Western Bypass “would require extensive investment and have significant impacts to surrounding western communities without meeting the corridor needs. It would be generally located within built urban environments with significant impacts on property, community, economic and environmental resources and was therefore eliminated from further consideration as a standalone strategy.” An extension of I-481 to NYS Route 695 was considered as a possible mitigation measure association with the boulevard strategy, but even this was found to have significant costs with minimal benefit and “the western bypass was ultimately eliminated from further consideration.”

 

[xc84]

My guess is that they can't justify the money to service such a small population.

Too much development now. There's no obvious place to put such a highway. It would require use of eminent domain which would take decades to legally get through.

 

[OttoMets]

Too much development now. There's no obvious place to put such a highway. It would require use of eminent domain which would take decades to legally get through.

Thousands of properties, including some that the state sold off a decade or so ago after acquiring the in the '60s and '70s. Throw in a huge grade change where the southern interchange is, a stagnant population with no apparent need for such a highway, and the fact that most state DOTs aren't in the business of building expressways, much less removing neighborhoods for expressways, and the idea didn't get serious consideration.

 

[TexanMark]

Wow, there's a lot to unpack there. My post wasn't condescending and I didn't mean it as such. Only to point out that saving a handful of minutes for suburban commuters who don't make up the city tax base is an incredibly poor and selfish justification to maintain a huge sink on city property values. There are piles of cities across the country tearing down central arteries and highways and replacing them with ring roads because it makes sense.

I'm sure your report is forthcoming. I, personally, trust the work of professionals.

Except Syracuse doesn't have a ring for the western quadrant...this is a major issue.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Except Syracuse doesn't have a ring for the western quadrant...this is a major issue

For a small segment of the population. I'm not saying that those people don't deserve a voice, but as posted above, I think it would cause a commotion that would dwarf tearing down the I-81 viaduct. So it's a nonstarter due to that, the cost, and limited service population. Imagine the howls if they proposed turning 173 into I-681?

 

[orangecuse]

By 2050 I should be in a jet pack so all of this tunnel talk is silly

That, or flying cars.

 

[Fly Rodder]

That, or flying cars.

People have a hard enough time driving in two dimensions, three would be a doozy.

 

[xc84]

People have a hard enough time driving in two dimensions, three would be a doozy.

We won't need to drive anywhere. Everything will be virtual. We will sit in our houses with goggles on ordering from Amazon.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Imagine the howls if they proposed turning 173 into I-681?

Sign me up! I'll petition door-to-door in my neighborhood.

For a small segment of the population. I'm not saying that those people don't deserve a voice, but

That's a contrarian statement. Is the population of the western suburbs really that much different than the eastern suburbs?

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

What's the point of the boulevard? (I know it will look nicer, but what other point is there?)

 

[maxxyz]

What's the point of the boulevard? (I know it will look nicer, but what other point is there?)

Here's a very general analysis on why the grid boulevard would be best for the immediate area from www.cnysolidarity.org;

"An estimated 91000 vehicles travel either into or through Syracuse daily. Of that total, approximately 12% is thru-traffic. So during construction, about 11000 vehicles will get diverted around the city. The viaduct includes no plans to improve or expand Route 481, yet will divert traffic onto that highway for about 5 years. The tunnel also has no plans for Route 481 expansion/improvement, yet will divert traffic onto this route for 8 to 10 years. The only option that includes plans to expand and improve both Routes 481 and 90 is the community grid, with this section of the project occurring in the first two years of construction. In the latter phase of construction of the community grid, when traffic needs to be diverted, these roadways will already be prepared for additional traffic. If NYS chooses the viaduct or tunnel, with no improvements and expansions made to Route 481, it could be disastrous. The number of accidents and traffic jams could be significant and could open NYS up to lawsuits. For this reason, the community grid is the superior option; the scope of the community grid includes expansion of affected roadways.

Most importantly, the community grid would have the best impact on the neighborhoods in close proximity to I-81. It would replace the blighted area beneath the present viaduct with a tree-lined avenue. Years ago I studied air pollution, and I recall the CO monitor levels at the intersection of Almond and Adams Streets were often out of compliance. By diverting about 11000 vehicles around the city and then spreading the remainder of traffic to different streets in the grid, the air pollution will be both reduced and diluted benefiting neighborhoods already burdened with heavier concentrations of air pollution and noise."

 

[TexanMark]

Hmmm so diverting those cars to drive more miles on I-481 is now a green initiative?

BTW, could you quote from an organization that at least has a semblance of being unbiased?

 

[DownTheField]

People moved to the suburbs because they could live cheaply and have a yard while reaping the city benefits easily because of the new highway system. 81 also played a major role in destroying the city center. My suggestion is move back into the city or quit bitching about your extra five minute commute.

 

[TexanMark]

People moved to the suburbs because they could live cheaply and have a yard while reaping the city benefits easily because of the new highway system. 81 also played a major role in destroying the city center. My suggestion is move back into the city or quit bitching about your extra five minute commute.

So you know best for those living outside the city? Heck, the city/county can't even play nicely with each other. I actually agree with the Gov that the County/City should consolidate but petty issues and job protection seems to get in the way.

 

[DownTheField]

So you know best for those living outside the city? Heck, the city/county can't even play nicely with each other. I actually agree with the Gov that the County/City should consolidate but petty issues and job protection seems to get in the way.

When it comes to this 81 thing I’m not concerned with those that live outside the city. If you want a cheaper home with land or to live in a development, live in the suburbs. If you want easy access to the city amenities, live in Syracuse. If you want cheap housing with land but also want easy access to or through a thriving city, move to Fantasyland. Without a thriving city center none of the suburbs exist. I live in Cicero and I’m 100% for tearing down the elevated section of 81 because it is the best thing for the city of Syracuse.

 

[longtimefan]

So you know best for those living outside the city? Heck, the city/county can't even play nicely with each other. I actually agree with the Gov that the County/City should consolidate but petty issues and job protection seems to get in the way.

Re: consolidation--

The report submitted shows the advantages of consolidating many services--police, fire, public works. Unfortunately, it did not include merging of the school systems. Leaving the city schools to fend for themselves is short-sighted and immoral, which is why the plan needs to be re-worked or rejected.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

I'm way late to the conversation, not a local, and am uninformed )), so take this with a ginormous grain of salt. My thoughts on the topic are:

1. Elevated I-81 is an ugly monstrosity and hastened the demise of sections of Syracuse.
2. It's convenient for everyone living outside of Syracuse (which is most of the MSA's population).
3. While aesthetically pleasing, fair or unfair, those neighborhoods hurt by 81 , which people hope to revitalize, are pretty much gone at this point. Syracuse doesn't have the economic climate to support large scale gentrification. The suburbs offer much better schools. It's a shame, but it is what it is.
4. The State/County/City should develop the most economically feasible plan (cost to tax payers) for routing traffic.
5. When i lived in Syracuse, i used 481 a lot, largely because i spent most of my time south and east of the City. The western and northern burbs already seemed like a cluster to get around anyway. Always empty and an easy trip.

 

[Fly Rodder]

those neighborhoods hurt by 81 , which people hope to revitalize, are pretty much gone at this point.

No evidence to support this. Armory Square was a disaster at one point as well.

The suburbs offer much better schools. It's a shame, but it is what it is.

This is a big thing, but one that borne out across the country. When the 1970s flight to the suburbs occurred, the city schools suffered and suburban schools flourished as a result of a gaping wealth disparity. This doesn't go away regardless of what they do with 81.

The biggest traffic advantage to a community grid is that it diffuses congestion. Drivers aren't shunted to one or two access points to enter or leave the city area.