Dome Renovation

[GoSU96]

Are you kidding with that question?

You keep talking about "factors". What are those.

Are you saying a facility that is configurable is an easily accessible location wouldn't get more use?

 

[reedny]

My opinion: Ainsley Drive.

This is the closest description/map I've seen. Where's Ainsely Drive (it must be pretty close to the Dome b/c it was used for "Monster Jam" parking)?

http://www.syracuse.com/traffic/ind...jam_police_offer_traffic_recommendations.html

 

[xc84]

You keep talking about "factors". What are those.

Are you saying a facility that is configurable is an easily accessible location wouldn't get more use?

Seriously, you don't know some of the factors involved after 72 pages of comments?

• Cost
• Cost
• Cost
  
• Control
• Stakeholder prioritization
  
• Opposition
• Siting
• New Infrastructure needs
  
• Reliance onGovernment involvement & related concerns
  
• History
• Schedule disruption

I think you are saying that with a huge budget in a perfect world, they can build a really great stadium in a different spot. That's nice.

Whether on the hill or not, it will be configurable. That is not a factor because it is in all options.
As for access, while it would be nice to have better access, I don't think that will be the deciding factor given all other factors.

 

[TexanMark]

This is the closest description/map I've seen. Where's Ainsely Drive (it must be pretty close to the Dome b/c it was used for "Monster Jam" parking)?

http://www.syracuse.com/traffic/ind...jam_police_offer_traffic_recommendations.html

Reed here is Ainsley...if you look east you see Skytop and Drumlins. You need to look at the satellite view too. There is some terrain challenges there.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/A...4m2!3m1!1s0x89d9f4887fe3574f:0x8475338c0c2839

Another area to look at is Pioneer Homes...like others I heard it is due to be torn down. I think it would be close enough to campus the school could call it on campus.

Politically I can hear the screams of racism though...however, from a land use perspective the highest and best use is either a stadium or something like a medical complex.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/S...2!3m1!1s0x89d9f399c3e1e235:0x2fda6da94526b1ac

 

[OttoMets]

...

Another area to look at is Pioneer Homes...like others I heard it is due to be torn down. ...

Nah. It's as likely as Crouse College to still be in place in 50 years. (Not saying that's not an underutilized and attractive location, but the present use isn't moving.)

 

[Jake]

This isn't crazy. (It's not on the table, from what I understand.) Potential future train service, adjacent both the future I-81 and the downtown expressway stub, not far from existing campus infrastructure, near the population center. It's underutilized land, so the city could probably get behind it. A lot of different land owners, though, and the ever-present NIMBY obstacle (but not as strong as for Skytop).

Also, the university also owns a significant chunk of the real estate there.
A significant detriment is the university's plan to move students from south campus - and further from this location.

 

[OttoMets]

Also, the university also owns a significant chunk of the real estate there.
A significant detriment is the university's plan to move students from south campus - and further from this location.

Exactly. This is another negative associated with Skytop. If SU's moving active functions north, that's one more reason for the stadium to be on campus.

SU's acquired a lot of contiguous land on Ainsley. They've bought up every parcel on the northwest corner of the intersection, including ProLiteracy's former campus. There's some residential development down there, but I think the trend suggests that back-of-house operations (rather than stadium-complementary development) will be the dominant land use going forward. ESF's been looking to relocate their physical plant for some time and it wouldn't surprise me if they join SU and Upstate's operations down there.

 

[reedny]

Reed here is Ainsley...if you look east you see Skytop and Drumlins. You need to look at the satellite view too. There is some terrain challenges there.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/A...4m2!3m1!1s0x89d9f4887fe3574f:0x8475338c0c2839

Another area to look at is Pioneer Homes...like others I heard it is due to be torn down. I think it would be close enough to campus the school could call it on campus.

Politically I can hear the screams of racism though...however, from a land use perspective the highest and best use is either a stadium or something like a medical complex.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/S...2!3m1!1s0x89d9f399c3e1e235:0x2fda6da94526b1ac

Ok, found it. It's West of the Skytop complex near the intersection of I-81 and 481. Is there access to 81 from E. Glenn (via E. Brighton Ave.), or would fans have to drive North to E. Colvin and get on there? It looks like there are large areas for construction/parking both in Skytop and in Drumlins. But as Jake points out, an Ainsley/Skytop location could involve relocating some Skytop facilities.

 

[RF2044]

Reed here is Ainsley...if you look east you see Skytop and Drumlins. You need to look at the satellite view too. There is some terrain challenges there.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/A...4m2!3m1!1s0x89d9f4887fe3574f:0x8475338c0c2839

Another area to look at is Pioneer Homes...like others I heard it is due to be torn down. I think it would be close enough to campus the school could call it on campus.

Politically I can hear the screams of racism though...however, from a land use perspective the highest and best use is either a stadium or something like a medical complex.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/S...2!3m1!1s0x89d9f399c3e1e235:0x2fda6da94526b1ac

Is this the area up near Danzers? Been awhile since I've lived in CNY, and trying to mentally triangulate.

 

[reedny]

Is this the area up near Danzers? Been awhile since I've lived in CNY, and trying to mentally triangulate.

I'm doing the same thing. It looks like there are a bunch of businesses on both sides of Ainsely Drive, West of Skytop. I'm guessing that Ansley would be the access road from a new Skytop facility to the highway.

http://www.mapquest.com/us/ny/syracuse/13210-4200/153-ainsley-dr-43.011167,-76.131693

 

[reedny]

We had a governor offer $200M to help build a stadium. The mayor flat-out rejected it. She didn't say "Good idea but bad location...let's negotiate". She said "no". That's just the tip of the iceberg of uncertainty & complexity for an off-campus facility which will require municipal and private funding as the university would just be a regular tenant. If history is a guide, the university will control its own destiny (no pun intended) and renovate on the current site. A similar situation & decision resulted in arguably the most significant and successful structure built in Syracuse over the last 50-100 years.

Nicely done.

 

[xc84]

Exactly. This is another negative associated with Skytop. If SU's moving active functions north, that's one more reason for the stadium to be on campus.

SU's acquired a lot of contiguous land on Ainsley. They've bought up every parcel on the northwest corner of the intersection, including ProLiteracy's former campus. There's some residential development down there, but I think the trend suggests that back-of-house operations (rather than stadium-complementary development) will be the dominant land use going forward. ESF's been looking to relocate their physical plant for some time and it wouldn't surprise me if they join SU and Upstate's operations down there.

Would this open up Skytop for a stadium site? i.e. moving admin. offices.

 

[NJCuse97]

The University is keenly aware of the BC Place project. It has been presented to them as a discussion point. The University would like to utilize the existing structural elements of the Dome if that is feasible so that they are minimizing not just cost, but impact to the immediate area surrounding the Dome (additional structural columns or piers), for which they have some ideas to enhance student experience by creating a stronger connection between west campus and the quad. BC Place needed additional structure, and is operable, which I don't know, but believe SU is not interested in.

To some people's point of reuse vs. new, if new, you still need to factor in the cost of demo for the Dome if the desire is to use that site for other building types (academic space or living centers). That is a cost that can be pushed around, but eventually you have to pay that piper, so either it shows as the worlds most expensive dorms, or a huge sum of money with no return but a clear site to be developed. This is also a hidden cost to building new. Is is possible that SU could repurpose the Dome? I guess so, but I doubt it and even if they wanted to, they still need to replace the roof.

 

[sutomcat]

I tend to agree...but I wanna here from the engineers/construction guys first. Rather keep it on campus...but Drumlins Area, Downtown and Destiny all have pluses.

Reed, Drumlins is owned by SU. A 36 hole golf course...most ideas suggest taking Drumlins West (18 holes) and use that land.

Yes, Drumlins West is a not well maintained public golf course just east of Skytop. It features a couple of huge drumlins that overlook the eastern side of Syracuse. Great views. The land is wide open and it would be perfect for a stadium, with a ton of room for parking, tailgating and the additional structures that could help to pay for the stadium (hotels, malls, restaurants, etc.). Developers were very interested in this in the past. I think the university could get some help from them, in addition to the government, to help pay for the project.

It is bordered on the south by the abandoned quarry. I-481 lies on the other side of the quarry. I-81, I-690 and I-90 are all within a few miles. The land is solid and would be easy to build on, and there would be no concerns over toxic soil.

I like that it is adjacent to South Campus. Think there would be a lot more student participation if it were located here.

The Inner Harbor has some positives but like the current location of the Dome, there is already considerable traffic and congestion in the area. You would never have the open areas and space there that you could at the Drumlins location. The fact that the university already owns the land is also an important consideration.

 

[shandeezy7]

Yes, Drumlins West is a not well maintained public golf course just east of Skytop. It features a couple of huge drumlins that overlook the eastern side of Syracuse. Great views. The land is wide open and it would be perfect for a stadium, with a ton of room for parking, tailgating and the additional structures that could help to pay for the stadium (hotels, malls, restaurants, etc.). Developers were very interested in this in the past. I think the university could get some help from them, in addition to the government, to help pay for the project.

It is bordered on the south by the abandoned quarry. I-481 lies on the other side of the quarry. I-81, I-690 and I-90 are all within a few miles. The land is solid and would be easy to build on, and there would be no concerns over toxic soil.

I like that it is adjacent to South Campus. Think there would be a lot more student participation if it were located here.

The Inner Harbor has some positives but like the current location of the Dome, there is already considerable traffic and congestion in the area. You would never have the open areas and space there that you could at the Drumlins location. The fact that the university already owns the land is also an important consideration.

Again, the problem with the Drumlins location would be what I've circled here on this map. There are some very expensive homes in that area that are owned by some pretty prominent people, including a number of homes that would not only be affected by the noise/traffic generated, but would be in direct sight lines of the stadium. There is no way they would let a facility like this open up in their back yard without a MASSIVE fight.

 

[OttoMets]

Would this open up Skytop for a stadium site? i.e. moving admin. offices.

Conceivably, yes, but I've heard that this isn't the goal. It'll be very interesting to see how this plays out, though.

 

[sutomcat]

Some great points here and in your prior post, Tom. Since I don't live in the area, I appreciate your perspective. No doubt the construction, either way, will be expensive and could run over budget and/or time. Those factors are there regardless of which option the U chooses. I'm still wondering if the Drumlins option involves a new building, or is that a parking option? Is Drumlins University-owned? (It's close to South Campus and I-81, correct?).

At any rate, the BC Place example (which seats +/- 55k) is an interesting parallel. It has about the same capacity as SU's facility, and it involves the renovation of an existing Dome'd arena. However, it's also a crown facility in a Canadian province built for public use. From your list, it appears that the Crown spared no expense ... including a highly complex retractable roof with all the cabling, mechanicals and structural support needed to get this done.

If we're to learn a lesson from BC place, it might be this: Public dome'd stadium renovations involving retractable roofs are complicated and expensive, especially when (Canadian) taxpayers are footing the bill.

Here in upstate NY, the "re-do" proponents are talking about a much more scaled down project for private/semi-public use. For example, I don't think the U is giving serious consideration to a retractable roof. That would, as you point out, be very expensive and complicated, and would probably outstrip any State funding assistance we could obtain for a private facility ... even if public events were occasionally held there (as is the case with the Dome).

However, if the roof is fixed, as I understand the latest proposal, the complexity, structural improvements and construction time would be substantially less. That doesn't mean it won't take 2 years, or that it won't be hell for a while. But unless SU is prepared to bulldoze the Dome, a renovation is going to be necessary. We don't know enough about the cost figures to compare the two options at this point. But one thing I know is, something has to be done with the Dome either way ... and if it's to be preserved and used, it's going to be expensive. If that assumption is correct, the "new stadium" proponents are actually suggesting that we do both ... renovate the Dome to keep it relevant AND build a new public facility through NYS that caters to regional interests.

The difference in cost between a fixed roof and a retractable one is in the range of $25-$40 million.

It is not the reason the BC Place renovation went over 400 million dollars over budget.

I don't think a retractable roof makes sense for Syracuse and am not an advocate of one.

My biggest worry is that we sign up for a 'modest' renovation with a pricetag of say $225 million and it turns out it was a lot harder than expected to do. I don't want to end up spending close to the same amount a new facility would have cost, lose a season of football and end up with a facility that is not close to what a new facility would have been in terms of fan experience and long term revenue generation. That would be really sad.

I trust the new chancellor and suspect the delays in making a decision might be tied to investigating what the true costs of doing a renovation would be, what the risks are that the project will be delayed, etc. There are lots of variables, this is a very complex equation and I am not sure any of us fully understand all the factors that are in play, including ones like possible funding.

It is fun to debate some of the choices but I would be happy with a new Dome in the Inner Harbor, at Drumlins, somewhere else in Syracuse or a renovated Dome in the current location. Any of these would be a good outcome for the SU sports programs. I look forward to the day a decision is announced.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Pioneer Homes might be torn down, but that will be for the 81 replacement. Ainsley Drive isn't going to happen.
There's a lot of private businesses in that area, that I suppose the University could buy out if they wanted to. Can't see a stadium being built there. The current Dome would take up the entire footprint of the land currently available, and that's not even including parking.

People aren't even considering the political fallout of a new partially publically funded stadium, which IMO is not going to go over well. Much easier to pass a renovation politically IMO.

 

[sutomcat]

Again, the problem with the Drumlins location would be what I've circled here on this map. There are some very expensive homes in that area that are owned by some pretty prominent people, including a number of homes that would not only be affected by the noise/traffic generated, but would be in direct sight lines of the stadium. There is no way they would let a facility like this open up in their back yard without a MASSIVE fight.

View attachment 55622

These people might not like a development happening near them, but they have been defeated before and will be defeated again. Manley Field House, Coyne Stadium, the soccer stadium, the IPF have all been built in plain sight of some of the houses in this neighborhood. The neighborhood fought against these projects and they lost.

When talks with developers were held some 10 years ago, they were tentatively planning on building the replacement for the Dome on the main drumlin on the public course. If you are familiar with the area, this is where the back nine is laid out. I am talking about the high point of the drumlin, behind the 18th tee with the artificial turf tee box.

You can't see that from the NIMBY neighborhood you are concerned about. There is a massive drumlin on the private course (Drumlins East) that blocks that view. You are wrong about your direct sight line argument.

 

[reedny]

Pioneer Homes might be torn down, but that will be for the 81 replacement. Ainsley Drive isn't going to happen.
There's a lot of private businesses in that area, that I suppose the University could buy out if they wanted to. Can't see a stadium being built there. The current Dome would take up the entire footprint of the land currently available, and that's not even including parking.

People aren't even considering the political fallout of a new partially publically funded stadium, which IMO is not going to go over well. Much easier to pass a renovation politically IMO.

Good point ... if local taxpayers are concerned about the cost of a partially state-funded renovation, why wouldn't they be even more concerned about a new publicly owned facility at possibly twice the cost?

And once again, what happens to the Dome. Even demolishing it would be in the millions ... something would also have to be built there (more cost). Maybe they could convert it into a research center, who knows. It is certainly interesting that this issue isn't being raised.

 

[SUFan44]

All of the different renovation/Dome options have been debated already, so I'm not sure I can really add much value to the conversation there.

But with all of these different factors coming into the decision, the next two years of Syracuse football might be the biggest in the history of the program.

I'm sure there have been other two-year spans at the time that were just as important, but with the landscape of the FBS changing, we are perilously close to losing the ability to remain relevant.

I thought we were really close with Marrone, but Scott Shafer's tenure did not help public perception of the program and did not continue to build on what Marrone had done from a W-L perspective (debate on quality of recruits, QB health, etc. for another day).

With Dino Babers, the administration is trying to bring Syracuse football to the 21st century. I have full faith that we will be better three years from now. But we need to show signs that we are going to get there in the first & second years (2016 & 2017). That means at least a bowl game in 2017, and at least one win over a ranked team.

These things need to happen for the fan base to get excited for Syracuse football again - and for administration/BOT to invest properly. Right or wrong, we need to show improvement and a viability that we haven't shown since 2010 (and before that, 2001).

Sorry this is a little bit rambling but these next two years are extremely important for Syracuse football. I think the current roster and talent level of it - if it improves at a steady rate and stays healthy - is in a position to get to the Top 25 level in 2-3 years.

Regardless, it's going to be an exciting and interesting time to be an SU fan over the next 3-5 years with the Dome decision, Babers joining the squad and the Boeheim retirement looming.

 

[Scooch]

Sooooo, we're not playing in Buffalo next year?

 

[OttoMets]

These people might not like a development happening near them, but they have been defeated before and will be defeated again. Manley Field House, Coyne Stadium, the soccer stadium, the IPF have all been built in plain sight of some of the houses in this neighborhood. The neighborhood fought against these projects and they lost.

When talks with developers were held some 10 years ago, they were tentatively planning on building the replacement for the Dome on the main drumlin on the public course. If you are familiar with the area, this is where the back nine is laid out. I am talking about the high point of the drumlin, behind the 18th tee with the artificial turf tee box.

You can't see that from the NIMBY neighborhood you are concerned about. There is a massive drumlin on the private course (Drumlins East) that blocks that view. You are wrong about your direct sight line argument.

Eh, I know he mentioned sight lines, but I don't think that really matters. (For what it's worth, with all the shallow rock on the back nine, a 175' foot stadium up there would be visible from a lot of directions, including most of those close-in DeWitt neighborhoods and a big swath of Meadowbrook neighborhoods.)

But of course the main NIMBY gripes -- legitimate or not -- would involve traffic and noise, as they always do. Because a stadium on Skytop would generate at least 150% more car trips on low-capacity neighborhood streets on gamedays than the current arrangement does.

Also, regarding opposition to athletic projects, a couple of points:

First, there wasn't organized or widespread opposition to the projects listed above. Though the IPF is an ugly building, it doesn't generate any additional problems for the neighborhood. When SU advanced plans for Dome construction at Skytop in the late '70s, the Outer Comstock association did make its voice heard. This contributed to SU's placement of the Dome at the Archbold site. Since that time, Skytop has gained a lot of interested neighbors, which brings me to the second point - most of the areas shandeezy circled on the map were unpopulated when those athletic facilities were built. Big developments of tract housing, along with some wealthier areas (Applecross/Steinway), have cropped up in the last couple decades. Right or wrong, they'd pursue every legal avenue to prevent construction of any large trip generator on Skytop.

I don't agree with their rationale, but those NIMBYs exist in numbers, more so than they did ten or thirty years ago, and that's part of the reason why SU won't build a stadium up there.

 

[reedny]

Sooooo, we're not playing in Buffalo next year?

I think it's 2 years out, minimum (uneducated guess). The Dome's going to be renovated (in all probability) whether a new stadium is built or not. If a new stadium is ruled out, the U can pick its timeline to minimize disruption .. but there will be pain.

If a new stadium is chosen, the U will have to use the existing Dome until the new one is ready. That could be 3-4 years out.

One thing for sure is (as Tom posted), this is a big decision with hundreds of factors and vary high stakes.

 

[shandeezy7]

These people might not like a development happening near them, but they have been defeated before and will be defeated again. Manley Field House, Coyne Stadium, the soccer stadium, the IPF have all been built in plain sight of some of the houses in this neighborhood. The neighborhood fought against these projects and they lost.

When talks with developers were held some 10 years ago, they were tentatively planning on building the replacement for the Dome on the main drumlin on the public course. If you are familiar with the area, this is where the back nine is laid out. I am talking about the high point of the drumlin, behind the 18th tee with the artificial turf tee box.

You can't see that from the NIMBY neighborhood you are concerned about. There is a massive drumlin on the private course (Drumlins East) that blocks that view. You are wrong about your direct sight line argument.

I'm not saying that whole neighborhood would be in the direct sight line of the stadium, but there are a number of homes (some of the most expensive in the area) that are 100% in the direct sight lines of the back 9 of the Drumlins West course. This is a picture I took from that 18th tee box that you referenced. The homes across the way are part of Applecross Woods. It's a different set of residents in that area than near Manley. Not saying I agree with any of it, just that those thinking Drumlins is an easy option might be mistaken.