Great to start with a W. Thoughts going forward.

[AngryOtto]

What Orangepace doesn't get is that TD is not a fit for what surrounds him. What good is a cannon arm if he has no one to throw long to? What point is a good pocket passer if they are required to constantly move around the pocket and extend plays? The latter has been the case at SU just about every year outside of 2012. We don't have OLs that can create a consistent pocket. TD is a square peg for SU's round hole.

As to Vick you made the point that I kinda was as well. The OL wasn't good under Dungey. But he made their jobs easier. Run blocking is easier when the D cannot crash down on those inside runs for fear of the QB keeping it. Pass blocking is easier when the D brings less people for fear of the QB getting away. Even with that help our OL was below average in 2018. This year's OL is not as good as that 2018 OL and will not have the benefit of a running QB. Can TD succeed with a 2016 like OL? Because that is likely what we see this year. Yes, that is better than the 2019 and 2020 OL but it is still a poor OL. IMO that answer is no.

Completely agree.
When I first read this thread I just kept thinking how everyone kept saying how good the 2018 Oline was. The 2018 Oline was better than the others but not by a wide margin. No all Americans on nfl draft picks. Dungey made them look better as he did in 2017 and 2016. We are not ND, WI, AL or some other program with a massive Oline. I hope Schmidt makes them substantially better but it will take time. Until that happens a pocket passer will not work at SU. My concern is that DB keeps wanting to force that. Looking back at Morgan. The first few times he played he seemed to move around when necessary to make plays. We than had a buy and it seemed like he was told to stay in the pocket. He did not roll out as much and then got knocked out of the game.
I remember DB wanted dungey to stay in the pocket but that was not going to happen. One of the reasons we won when he played.
I’m hoping Gilbert convinces DB to go with a DT this year.

 

[money3189]

TD will obviously benefit from a improved line and improved run game but there is not going to be a clean pocket each snap. Best lines in the pro's or college have breakdowns. If you watch any game you will see QB's sliding around the pocket, keeping their eyes down field, escaping the pocket to extend plays. Thats what TD struggles with and thats what every QB needs to be able to do.

 

[kcsu]

TD will obviously benefit from a improved line and improved run game but there is not going to be a clean pocket each snap. Best lines in the pro's or college have breakdowns. If you watch any game you will see QB's sliding around the pocket, keeping their eyes down field, escaping the pocket to extend plays. Thats what TD struggles with and thats what every QB needs to be able to do.

It's obvious that SU needs a dual threat QB. We have done our best with Mobile QBs . Ryan was the exception but he actually had excellent pocket awareness and was a quick read. Unless Tommy has somehow significantly improved his game skills and or Dino remains a stubborn dinosaur I expect to see Shred take the reigns by the start of the ACC schedule.

 

[City of Cuse]

The thread JO started right before the 2018 season was one of my favorite posts ever. He told us it would be a special season. I hope he comes back this year with a similar message.

 

[money3189]

It's obvious that SU needs a dual threat QB. We have done our best with Mobile QBs . Ryan was the exception but he actually had excellent pocket awareness and was a quick read. Unless Tommy has somehow significantly improved his game skills and or Dino remains a stubborn dinosaur I expect to see Shred take the reigns by the start of the ACC schedule.

Our history of success came with option QB's. That was our system and we won games. It made SU a desirable place to play for running QB's. I would prefer dual threat guys but I dont think thats the only type we can win with. There's plenty of pocket passers with mediocre O lines. They have success in spread systems. They just have the ability to extend plays when the line breaksdown. We will definitely see Schrader. It just might take some time before we see him in a extended role.

 

[RF2044]

Our history of success came with option QB's. That was our system and we won games. It made SU a desirable place to play for running QB's. I would prefer dual threat guys but I dont think thats the only type we can win with. There's plenty of pocket passers with mediocre O lines. They have success in spread systems. They just have the ability to extend plays when the line breaksdown. We will definitely see Schrader. It just might take some time before we see him in a extended role.

Glad he participated in spring practice. That should have accelerated the learning curve.

 

[007]

TD will obviously benefit from a improved line and improved run game but there is not going to be a clean pocket each snap. Best lines in the pro's or college have breakdowns. If you watch any game you will see QB's sliding around the pocket, keeping their eyes down field, escaping the pocket to extend plays. Thats what TD struggles with and thats what every QB needs to be able to do.

Yes, for sure. Movement in the pocket - even stepping up in the pocket with eyes downfield would be huge - extending plays, AND decision making after his first read. TD has not shown a good feel for any of that yet.

 

[JRHEETER]

Yes, for sure. Movement in the pocket - even stepping up in the pocket with eyes downfield would be huge - extending plays, AND decision making after his first read. TD has not shown a good feel for any of that yet.

Yeah TD just seems to have a terrible feel for the game and the situations that he is in.

he has the “skills” and tools necessary to be an elite level qb IMO.

however, right at this current time it doesn’t appear he has the intangible qualities that are needed. The feel, pocket awareness etc etc etc

 

[baggerbob]

TD will obviously benefit from a improved line and improved run game but there is not going to be a clean pocket each snap. Best lines in the pro's or college have breakdowns. If you watch any game you will see QB's sliding around the pocket, keeping their eyes down field, escaping the pocket to extend plays. Thats what TD struggles with and thats what every QB needs to be able to do.

That's why I said, that after 4 years, the mental part is not going to change. Tommy is a great young man, and wonderful ambassador for the school. He doesn't have the package mentally and physically to run this offense.

 

[SWC75]

Yeah TD just seems to have a terrible feel for the game and the situations that he is in.

he has the “skills” and tools necessary to be an elite level qb IMO.

however, right at this current time it doesn’t appear he has the intangible qualities that are needed. The feel, pocket awareness etc etc etc

Often he's been unaware of the pocket because there wasn't one.

 

[SWC75]

Completely agree.
When I first read this thread I just kept thinking how everyone kept saying how good the 2018 Oline was. The 2018 Oline was better than the others but not by a wide margin. No all Americans on nfl draft picks. Dungey made them look better as he did in 2017 and 2016. We are not ND, WI, AL or some other program with a massive Oline. I hope Schmidt makes them substantially better but it will take time. Until that happens a pocket passer will not work at SU. My concern is that DB keeps wanting to force that. Looking back at Morgan. The first few times he played he seemed to move around when necessary to make plays. We than had a buy and it seemed like he was told to stay in the pocket. He did not roll out as much and then got knocked out of the game.
I remember DB wanted dungey to stay in the pocket but that was not going to happen. One of the reasons we won when he played.
I’m hoping Gilbert convinces DB to go with a DT this year.

The only thing that made them a better line was that they were a healthier line.

 

[syrBossHogg]

Completely agree.
When I first read this thread I just kept thinking how everyone kept saying how good the 2018 Oline was. The 2018 Oline was better than the others but not by a wide margin. No all Americans on nfl draft picks. Dungey made them look better as he did in 2017 and 2016. We are not ND, WI, AL or some other program with a massive Oline. I hope Schmidt makes them substantially better but it will take time. Until that happens a pocket passer will not work at SU. My concern is that DB keeps wanting to force that. Looking back at Morgan. The first few times he played he seemed to move around when necessary to make plays. We than had a buy and it seemed like he was told to stay in the pocket. He did not roll out as much and then got knocked out of the game.
I remember DB wanted dungey to stay in the pocket but that was not going to happen. One of the reasons we won when he played.
I’m hoping Gilbert convinces DB to go with a DT this year.

I don't think I fully agree that Dino is forcing to have a pocket passer. He brought in Shrader who is a dual threat, but the other QB of the future (Lamson) is also a dual threat. Morgan has also shown that he can make plays with his legs. I think after our bye, opposing defenses saw on film Morgan's ability with his legs and adjusted to keep him in the pocket and force him to beat the defense with his arm. That's where he really needs to develop.

TD will most likely start but he won't have a long leash IMO. Shrader isn't coming here to sit.

 

[money3189]

Often he's been unaware of the pocket because there wasn't one.

It’s obvious the line struggled. Some of yall make it seem like the QB’s had exactly 1 second to throw on every snap. Lol. Line play was not good but Dino didn’t bring in a transfer for no reason. That staff evaluates every part of the position.

 

[Cusefan69]

It’s obvious the line struggled. Some of yall make it seem like the QB’s had exactly 1 second to throw on every snap. Lol. Line play was not good but Dino didn’t bring in a transfer for no reason. That staff evaluates every part of the position.

Yeah I think people are trying to make a chicken and egg thing here. TD has legitimately had issues with reads and escaping the pocket. The Oline the last 3 years in the category of sacks per game has ranked 113,128 and 118. That is out of 130 teams. The combination of TDs challenges with our Olines challenges has created the perfect environment for a "shiiit show " almost every Saturday. Here is to hoping TD, Schrader, The Oline, our RBs and WRs play with confidence and deliver. I think our defense will be a headache for Offensive Coordinators.

 

[RandomGuy]

Yeah I think people are trying to make a chicken and egg thing here. TD has legitimately had issues with reads and escaping the pocket. The Oline the last 3 years in the category of sacks per game has ranked 113,128 and 118. That is out of 130 teams. The combination of TDs challenges with our Olines challenges has created the perfect environment for a "shiiit show " almost every Saturday. Here is to hoping TD, Schrader, The Oline, our RBs and WRs play with confidence and deliver. I think our defense will be a headache for Offensive Coordinators.

I'm taking Dinos comments about Tommy not having happy feet, as a very good sign. At a minimum, more confidence.

Either, the line is giving more time on average, and he trusts them to do that.

Or, He could be trusting his WRs more.

Or. Like every player, he busted his arse in all of the player lead practices , to improve the areas he needed work on.

I'll go with the last one. If the 1st and 2cnd one are also true? Even better.

 

[Orangepace]

That may be true if Vick was a true pocket passer but he was not. He would have used his legs to burn the D which would caused the D not bring so much pressure. Similar to how the O ran with Dungey.

Interesting thought, but not baked in reality. Vick had a decent OL in 2000 and one Mr Freeney harassed him all game. With a decent OL he threw for under 100 yards and rushed for less than 20, if I recall correctly. Sorry, your video game type assessment isn’t grounded in reality.

Gino also was a first round pick and how did he fare when under extreme pressure?

I don’t care who the QB is and what talent level they possess, the reality is that if a QB is constantly under duress, their talent won’t save them.

 

[Orangepace]

What Orangepace doesn't get is that TD is not a fit for what surrounds him. What good is a cannon arm if he has no one to throw long to? What point is a good pocket passer if they are required to constantly move around the pocket and extend plays? The latter has been the case at SU just about every year outside of 2012. We don't have OLs that can create a consistent pocket. TD is a square peg for SU's round hole.

As to Vick you made the point that I kinda was as well. The OL wasn't good under Dungey. But he made their jobs easier. Run blocking is easier when the D cannot crash down on those inside runs for fear of the QB keeping it. Pass blocking is easier when the D brings less people for fear of the QB getting away. Even with that help our OL was below average in 2018. This year's OL is not as good as that 2018 OL and will not have the benefit of a running QB. Can TD succeed with a 2016 like OL? Because that is likely what we see this year. Yes, that is better than the 2019 and 2020 OL but it is still a poor OL. IMO that answer is no.

Yeah, you’re right.. I’m just a goon. But one who played college ball, albeit at the D3 level.

btw.. Dungey was great that year, but tell me.. with that OL, how did Devito perform in his stints that year? I seem to remember that while he wasn’t quite ready, he stepped in and saved a few games that year.

 

[JRHEETER]

I just honestly can’t wait for the regular season to start so that we can stop talking about the same thing over and over again hahahahaha

 

[money3189]

Yeah I think people are trying to make a chicken and egg thing here. TD has legitimately had issues with reads and escaping the pocket. The Oline the last 3 years in the category of sacks per game has ranked 113,128 and 118. That is out of 130 teams. The combination of TDs challenges with our Olines challenges has created the perfect environment for a "shiiit show " almost every Saturday. Here is to hoping TD, Schrader, The Oline, our RBs and WRs play with confidence and deliver. I think our defense will be a headache for Offensive Coordinators.

Some people just totally ignore the fact that other QB’s get sacked less when they are in the game.

 

[MikeSU02]

Interesting thought, but not baked in reality. Vick had a decent OL in 2000 and one Mr Freeney harassed him all game. With a decent OL he threw for under 100 yards and rushed for less than 20, if I recall correctly. Sorry, your video game type assessment isn’t grounded in reality.

Gino also was a first round pick and how did he fare when under extreme pressure?

I don’t care who the QB is and what talent level they possess, the reality is that if a QB is constantly under duress, their talent won’t save them.

I mean, in your VT 2000 example, literally talent did save them. Vick ran for a ridiculous TD to ice the game on talent alone. The guy was pressured all game, had a terrible game stats-wise and talent still won out.

You really think Vick on last year's team would still have won a single game? The guy who eventually went #1 in the NFL draft?

 

[Orangepace]

I mean, in your VT 2000 example, literally talent did save them. Vick ran for a ridiculous TD to ice the game on talent alone. The guy was pressured all game, had a terrible game stats-wise and talent still won out.

You really think Vick on last year's team would still have won a single game? The guy who eventually went #1 in the NFL draft?

I think he’d have been able to get us to 3, maybe 4 wins last season. But QBs in college need 4 secs to throw a ball more than 8 yards down field. Only getting 2.5 secs really limits a guy talent wise.

That Vick game was a lot closer than it should have been, because that team wasn’t a great SU team. If Freeney didn’t go all-world, that game would have been rough.

 

[storange]

I think he’d have been able to get us to 3, maybe 4 wins last season. But QBs in college need 4 secs to throw a ball more than 8 yards down field. Only getting 2.5 secs really limits a guy talent wise.

That Vick game was a lot closer than it should have been, because that team wasn’t a great SU team. If Freeney didn’t go all-world, that game would have been rough.

SU should have been up by a lot more. They dominated the first half but squandered opportunities. I believe we had one of Troys I’ll fated plays leading to easy Tech score.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Yeah, you’re right.. I’m just a goon. But one who played college ball, albeit at the D3 level.

btw.. Dungey was great that year, but tell me.. with that OL, how did Devito perform in his stints that year? I seem to remember that while he wasn’t quite ready, he stepped in and saved a few games that year.

Against WMU, Wagner, UConn he did not look good. He also looked like a mess vs ND. He got us to OT vs UNC but nearly lost the game on his INT and then again on a dropped INT. Overall though he saved our ass that game, but it was up and down. FSU was by far his best game. But as I said before UNC and FSU game plans were for Dungey so he got looks he hasn’t seen since.

 

[money3189]

But as I said before UNC and FSU game plans were for Dungey so he got looks he hasn’t seen since.

It’s definitely a advantage when teams aren’t able to game plan against your tendencies

 

[721Comstock]

Some people just totally ignore the fact that other QB’s get sacked less when they are in the game.

When you “get the ball out quickly” -
you get sacked less.

Never mind those balls often go into the ground, or to the other team, but at least they aren’t getting sacked.