Hypothetical

[orangecuse]

So in the NCAA's world, if an employee of the NCAA gets so much as a parking ticket, Mark Emmert should be held responsible. I'd like to be there the day he gets fired.

That's a pretty broad analogy attempt. The NCAA has about 720 or so employees I believe, whereas JB has 13 scholarship players he's responsible for. Not to mention, a random parking ticket of an EE isn't in the scope of one's work related NCAA responsibilities, whereas a head coach has relative to academics of his "student athlete."

 

[Forza Azzurri]

That's a pretty broad analogy attempt. The NCAA has about 720 or so employees I believe, whereas JB has 13 scholarship players he's responsible for. Not to mention, a random parking ticket of an EE isn't in the scope of one's work related NCAA responsibilities, whereas a head coach has relative to academics of his "student athlete."

Based upon the burden that the NCAA puts on the head coach of a program, I don't find his analogy to be a stretch...

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I’m just trying to help some of you guys get off the little Fantasy Islands you’ve constructed. These are the spots where Boeheim is somehow the problem and his presence is keeping SU from hiring the latest wonder worker who would put SU at the top of the ACC.

That you have converted this wishful thinking into what you think is reality doesn’t make it so.

The world of college basketball has changed for the teams below the handful of elite programs. There’s more balance and parity now. Three of the four traditional Big East powers (SU, Georgetown and UConn) aren’t anywhere near what they once were.

In the Washington Post this morning there’s an article about the “fearsome EasternTriangle” of the Big Ten which includes Penn State and Rutgers. A team from the old Southwest Conference is near the top of the rankings. Seton Hall and even Providence are good.

SU’s rise from Regional “factor” was powered by three things. The miracle of the Big East, the ESPN show casing of SU and the coaching genius of Boeheim. Some might throw the use of the football stadium as a basketball venue in to the mix.

The Big East is a shadow of its former self and there are now dozens of games on, not just a few. Kids in California aren’t rushing home after school to watch SU vs St John’s like they did decades ago.

The next coach will have a huge hill to climb if the expectation is to compete at the top of the ACC. He will be given a very long time to do what he can, because the University won’t be completely sure what is possible.

Wow.
1) The Dome and the magnificence and impact of 30k is/was a far more significant factor than you allow. More than the “genius” of Boeheim, since the rise preceded his annointment and the NC.
2) You still are stuck on the idea that the next coach has to exceed JB’s ‘historical accomplishments’ in order to be successful. We are no longer in the 80s/90s king of the Big East reality. The next coach just has to be better than ACC .500 and perennial bubble. Heck, to continue the downward trend, this year, we aren’t even mentioned in bubble consideration. It’s not a competition versus the ‘statue of JB’ that will eventually be erected. It’s against who we have been since we jumped conferences. Yeah, that may be difficult still, but it’s going to happen. And we just got smacked by the model of how it can and why it’s not impossible.

 

[Alsacs]

At this point if you believe sanctions are why we are where we are now then no criticism is ever allowed.

JB is responsible for the basketball program. It doesn’t mean the NCAA isn’t a corrupt POS organization and we were overpunished.

Those are separate issues.

JB is coaching for as long as he wants now but the program has struggled recently for way more than sanctions.

The math has shown time and time again how few times JB used all the available scholarships the last 10 years.

 

[721Comstock]

you would have the same opinion if Cal, Pitino, Roy, Coach K or anyone else got hit with similar findings?

Rick Pitino WAS RECORDED ON THE PHONE NEGOTIATING $100K PAYMENT FOR A RECRUIT.
After they were already busted for providing underage hookers to recruits.

Cal and K have so much smoke you'd swear there's a forest fire nearby.
(There's a laundry list of examples I won't bother rehashing.)

Ol Crying Roy ain't cheating hard enough this year, clearly.
Or maybe it's because his student-athletes have to go to actual classes now?

Conversely -
what happened at Syracuse under Boeheim's watch is the equivalent of some unpaid parking tickets and jaywalking.

One of these things, is not like the others.

Sorry if you cannot understand this fact.

 

[HOFCeluck]

JB is the CEO of the basketball program. But also, he’s a passive agent just floating in the wind. Completely oblivious and powerless to stop the cadre of evildoers hellbent on submarining his program.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

At this point if you believe sanctions are why we are where we are now then no criticism is ever allowed.

JB is responsible for the basketball program. It doesn’t mean the NCAA isn’t a corrupt POS organization and we were overpunished.

Those are separate issues.

JB is coaching for as long as he wants now but the program has struggled recently for way more than sanctions.

The math has shown time and time again how few times JB used all the available scholarships the last 10 years.

Sanctions are not currently why we are where we are but they were the first in a series of events that have resulted in our relative under-performance over the last half-a-dozen years.

More recently it has been Hop's departure and the resulting misses and recruiting void it left. Put Stewart on this team and we are talking about seeding rather than why we are having yet another mediocre season.

Just because you used a scholarship doesn't mean you used it on someone you really wanted.

If you go back and look at HW's recruitment, we only offered him because there wasn't anyone left to offer...

 

[OrangeXtreme]

That's a pretty broad analogy attempt. The NCAA has about 720 or so employees I believe, whereas JB has 13 scholarship players he's responsible for. Not to mention, a random parking ticket of an EE isn't in the scope of one's work related NCAA responsibilities, whereas a head coach has relative to academics of his "student athlete."

There are a lot more than 13 people in the Basketball Dept.

Players
Coaches
Managers
Misc staff members


According to the NCAA, JB is responsible for all of them.

And a bunch of people not even within his "chain of command" like academic support people, people in the Registrar's office, people in the Compliance office, S & C people, even people on the AD's staff.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Everyone's to blame, but poor ol' JB.

The refs, the players, the NCAA, the staff, the university, the recruits, the fans, the home court, the stats, the pre-game shoot around, the video, the PA announcer, etc.

How'd that guy get to 1,000 wins with so many enemies thwarting his success?

 

[Townie72]

Every indication is that the answer to that question is "yes, Boeheim cannot make the right choice", because his choice will be Gerry McNamara, who has never coached before, and who, despite a couple recent recruiting "wins", is not considered a top recruiter nationally. He was a terrific player for us, even legendary. But he hasn't shown much as a coach yet. So if that's Boeheim's call - and we pretty much know that it is - then that's a failure.

You don’t know anything of the sort.

What you are suggesting is that JB would recommend to Wildhack a strategy that is Less than ideal because his allegiance to his players / Assistants outweighs his loyalty and concern for the University.

I have a very hard time accepting that knowing what I know about JB. I can’t think of anyone who has been more loyal to SU or who has done more for SU than Jim Boeheim.

I think what Boeheim will do is lay out the alternatives for Wildhack and the Chancellor based on what he has learned and how he feels about them. He will lay out what he thinks needs to be done and will probably shed invaluable light on who might be qualified to do it. He also has an extensive network of coaching friends and associates that he can tap into.

I do not think he has the luxury of stepping back and saying “I’m loyal to my guys and you should choose one of them.”

That would be little help to Wildhack. And JB will not leaving him hanging out.

 

[Alsacs]

Sanctions are not currently why we are where we are but they were the first in a series of events that have resulted in our relative under-performance over the last half-a-dozen years.

More recently it has been Hop's departure and the resulting misses and recruiting void it left. Put Stewart on this team and we are talking about seeding rather than why we are having yet another mediocre season.

Just because you used a scholarship doesn't mean you used it on someone you really wanted.

If you go back and look at HW's recruitment, we only offered him because there wasn't anyone left to offer...

Our program has struggled because we haven't had as much talent. That is the responsibility of the HC.

Recruiting is on the head coach. The lost scholarships affected one player we know of Kevin Huerter but beyond him our recruiting decisions have been poor. The lost scholarships are people on this board spinning plain and simple and not being honest when its on the HC.

The HC is going nowhere now but the frustration from most fans is legit.

 

[IthacaMatt]

You don’t know anything of the sort.

What you are suggesting is that JB would recommend to Wildhack a strategy that is Less than ideal because his allegiance to his players / Assistants outweighs his loyalty and concern for the University.

I have a very hard time accepting that knowing what I know about JB. I can’t think of anyone who has been more loyal to SU or who has done more for SU than Jim Boeheim.

I think what Boeheim will do is lay out the alternatives for Wildhack and the Chancellor based on what he has learned and how he feels about them. He will lay out what he thinks needs to be done and will probably shed invaluable light on who might be qualified to do it. He also has an extensive network of coaching friends and associates that he can tap into.

I do not think he has the luxury of stepping back and saying “I’m loyal to my guys and you should choose one of them.”

That would be little help to Wildhack. And JB will not leaving him hanging out.

Since it is well known that JB does not want to do any farewell tour, I predict right now that he will retire in August 2022 and appoint Gerry as head coach. There will be no time for a proper search (just like Calhoun did with Kevin Ollie), and JB will be leaving Gerry a 5-star PG, and whoever Dior may bring with him, to help kick off Gerry's stint as the head coach.

 

[HOFCeluck]

The guy who his book has fixated on the “Syracuse Way” by only hiring former players as assistants, one of whom he famously defended in a profanity laced tirade, will, at the end of his career, lay out the options in a purely objective way without deference to his former players and assistants.

And this is what I believe based only on facts and not at all on some idealized image I have of the man.

 

[Alsacs]

The guy who his book has fixated on the “Syracuse Way” by only hiring former players as assistants, one of whom he famously defended in a profanity laced tirade, will, at the end of his career, lay out the options in a purely objective way without deference to his former players and assistants.

And this is what I believe based only on facts and not at all on some idealized image I have of the man.

I am convinced when JB retires he will wait till August before he retires to get his guy a chance as his replacement. Plus he won't want a retirement tour. Autry over GMac is my odds on favorite as Wildhack won't give the assistant who isn't the associate HC the interim chance. It would be disrespectful to Autry. For GMac to be the next HC he needs Autry to get a HC job elsewhere.

 

[Townie72]

Wow.
1) The Dome and the magnificence and impact of 30k is/was a far more significant factor than you allow. More than the “genius” of Boeheim, since the rise preceded his annointment and the NC.
2) You still are stuck on the idea that the next coach has to exceed JB’s ‘historical accomplishments’ in order to be successful. We are no longer in the 80s/90s king of the Big East reality. The next coach just has to be better than ACC .500 and perennial bubble. Heck, to continue the downward trend, this year, we aren’t even mentioned in bubble consideration. It’s not a competition versus the ‘statue of JB’ that will eventually be erected. It’s against who we have been since we jumped conferences. Yeah, that may be difficult still, but it’s going to happen. And we just got smacked by the model of how it can and why it’s not impossible.

I think you are wrong about the impact of the Dome. Other than generating a lot of revenue. It’s not much of a home court advantage as our record in games with more than 25k fans demonstrates.

And “why it’s not impossible” (your words) is a long, long way from highly probable.

I’ll stick with my base opinion. The next coach will not be as good as JB would have been. In the short term and maybe even the intermediate one, this will be a struggle.

There are 10 or 12 other teams who want to get to the top tier of the ACC.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I am convinced when JB retires he will wait till August before he retires to get his guy a chance as his replacement. Plus he won't want a retirement tour. Autry over GMac is my odds on favorite as Wildhack won't give the assistant who isn't the associate HC the interim chance. It would be disrespectful to Autry. For GMac to be the next HC he needs Autry to get a HC job elsewhere.

Whether it’s Red or Gmac, I am fairly convinced this is how it will happen. And honestly if it’s a short term cheap deal like they did with Kevin Ollie then fine.

 

[Alsacs]

I think you are wrong about the impact of the Dome. Other than generating a lot of revenue. It’s not much of a home court advantage as our record in games with more than 25k fans demonstrates.

And “why it’s not impossible” (your words) is a long, long way from highly probable.

I’ll stick with my base opinion. The next coach will not be as good as JB would have been. In the short term and maybe even the intermediate one, this will be a struggle.

There are 10 or 12 other teams who want to get to the top tier of the ACC.

OMG please stop with the record in 25k fans game nonsense.
We play GOOD TEAMS when we play these 25k+ games.
When you play good teams your chances at victory are not as strong as when you play tomato cans my god. Please use common sense you aren't an idiot. When you play good teams its harder to win.
The crowd size helps recruiting as recruits want to play in big time environments this isn't hard to understand.

 

[OrangeDW]

I think you are wrong about the impact of the Dome. Other than generating a lot of revenue. It’s not much of a home court advantage as our record in games with more than 25k fans demonstrates.

And “why it’s not impossible” (your words) is a long, long way from highly probable.

I’ll stick with my base opinion. The next coach will not be as good as JB would have been. In the short term and maybe even the intermediate one, this will be a struggle.

There are 10 or 12 other teams who want to get to the top tier of the ACC.

I bet our record with under 17,000 fans in the 2000s is awesome!!! Wonder why?

I guess the Dome is a better home court advantage with fewer people in it? Weird.

 

[OrangeDW]

OMG please stop with the record in 25k fans game nonsense.
We play GOOD TEAMS when we play these 25k+ games.
When you play good teams your chances at victory are not as strong as when you play tomato cans my god. Please use common sense you aren't an idiot. When you play good teams its harder to win.
The crowd size helps recruiting as recruits want to play in big time environments this isn't hard to understand.

At least Dior made him stay quiet about the Dome’s effect on recruiting.

 

[Townie72]

The guy who his book has fixated on the “Syracuse Way” by only hiring former players as assistants, one of whom he famously defended in a profanity laced tirade, will, at the end of his career, lay out the options in a purely objective way without deference to his former players and assistants.

And this is what I believe based only on facts and not at all on some idealized image I have of the man.

So defending GMac in a presser against an anonymous assistant coach somehow casts a doubt about his recommendation to Wildhack on who the next coach should be or even what Wildhack’s alternatives are.

I don’t have an idealized view of JB. I do have an impression based on watching him and listening to him since he was an assistant. There’s no body I would trust more to do the right thing for the University.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Our program has struggled because we haven't had as much talent. That is the responsibility of the HC.

I agree with both of these statements.

Recruiting is on the head coach. The lost scholarships affected one player we know of Kevin Huerter but beyond him our recruiting decisions have been poor. The lost scholarships are people on this board spinning plain and simple and not being honest when its on the HC.

If people are talking about our struggles this year then yes, I agree with you that sanctions are no longer the issue. Hop's departure is the primary reason this year is not a good year.

However, whenever people talk about " our last 6 years of mediocrity, then sanctions do factor into that statement as sanctions were responsible for our initial decline.

The HC is going nowhere now but the frustration from most fans is legit.

That is an opinion. I am not frustrated as I see the last six years as a cascading series of events which are now over. Sanctions are done and Hop has been gone for several years.

The recruits we are now getting are the product of the current staff.

I am hopeful that our recruiting will get back to where it has been. There are signs that it is improving.

I also don't see a coach who has lost any of his ability to coach.

In fact, I see the opposite. This team may have less individual athleticism than any team JB has ever coached.

Yet, somehow, JB has managed to take a team which got annihilated by a terrible Oklahoma State team three months ago and has managed to make it competitive which just about everyone we've played. No small feat.

So, of course, you are all welcome to rant and rave about "It is time" and "Jb cannot coach offense" and "JB cannot coach defense" and we lose because "Edwards should be playing more" and "Washington should be playing more" and "Goodine should be playing more" and "the zone doesn't work anymore" and...and...and...

I'll take a different approach.

I'll look for results over the next couple of years as all the events which have caused us to be where we are today get further and further away in the rearview mirror...

 

[Cusefan0307]

Lots of heads banging against walls in this thread. The Townie argument is bored.

 

[Alsacs]

I agree with both of these statements.



If people are talking about our struggles this year then yes, I agree with you that sanctions are no longer the issue. Hop's departure is the primary reason this year is not a good year.

However, whenever people talk about " our last 6 years of mediocrity, then sanctions do factor into that statement as sanctions were responsible for our initial decline.



That is an opinion. I am not frustrated as I see the last six years as a cascading series of events which are now over. Sanctions are done and Hop has been gone for several years.

The recruits we are now getting are the product of the current staff.

I am hopeful that our recruiting will get back to where it has been. There are signs that it is improving.

I also don't see a coach who has lost any of his ability to coach.

In fact, I see the opposite. This team may have less individual athleticism than any team JB has ever coached.

Yet, somehow, JB has managed to take a team which got annihilated by a terrible Oklahoma State team three months ago and has managed to make it competitive which just about everyone we've played. No small feat.

So, of course, you are all welcome to rant and rave about "It is time" and "Jb cannot coach offense" and "JB cannot coach defense" and we lose because "Edwards should be playing more" and "Washington should be playing more" and "Goodine should be playing more" and "the zone doesn't work anymore" and...and...and...

I'll take a different approach.

I'll look for results over the next couple of years as all the events which have caused us to be where we are today to get further and further away in the rearview mirror...

My only criticism right now of JB is he doesn't change when the defense isn't working.
I have given up the rest. When the zone doesn't work or we can't rebound switch a few possessions in an individual game and try something else.

If the D is working there is no need to change but we don't do anything different except a full court press that needs long personnel to work.

Recruiting is getting better outside of finding a big. We have targeted shooting which is good.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I think you are wrong about the impact of the Dome. Other than generating a lot of revenue. It’s not much of a home court advantage ...

Dude, we are in the top 5 in revenue for hoops nationally. That money pays for recruiting, travel, and so much more - it isn't just for the athletic department's general fund and the rest of the university. It is the wellspring of so much more.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

My only criticism right now of JB is he doesn't change when the defense isn't working.
I have given up the rest. When the zone doesn't work or we can't rebound switch a few possessions in an individual game and try something else.

If the D is working there is no need to change but we don't do anything different except a full court press that needs long personnel to work.

Recruiting is getting better outside of finding a big. We have targeted shooting which is good.

With this team, I don't think it matters...they would not be good defensively no matter what defense they play.

From a personnel standpoint, this is as flawed a team as JB has ever coached...

To be brutally honest, I don't think anyone other than Eli would see the floor for other than token minutes on the teams from 08-13...