Hypothetical | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Hypothetical

So if that’s true, why are many of the traditional powerhouse schools still sitting atop the basketball world? They seem to still be good places to go. The programs that moved past SU have become better because they hired younger, energetic coaches with fresh approaches and a knack for recruiting.

It happens.
So you are in the “Boeheim is the Problem” camp?

And the road back to past glory is an unnamed and maybe imaginary young coach who will turn this battleship around?
 
Why?

I just went through the entire Alumni magazine cover to cover. Except for a piece on a substantial gift from John Lilly, there wasn’t a single mention of SU athletics. Not one.

If you went to Newhouse, you probably got one too. Check it out. It’s content reflects what the University thinks the alumni care about.

Providing entertainment for the populace of CNY population so they can struggle through the dark days of winter is nice to do, especially if there’s a lot of revenue associated with it. But an all out pursuit of the top rung of the ACC isn’t in the cards, I don’t think.
 
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If this was Kentucky or Duke or Kansas, there would never have been any sanctions.

Hell, the NCAA would have probably written Fab's paper for him.

And at most schools if a single coach got hit with sanctions twice during their tenure would they still be around? Giving him more rope because of sanctions under his watch is kind of a funny way to do things.
 
So you are in the “Boeheim is the Problem” camp?

And the road back to past glory is an unnamed and maybe imaginary young coach who will turn this battleship around?

Nah man, the road back is to plan into his 80s for the resurrection of an annual top 25 program. Which by the way we also have to imagine because it's been done 0 times in the entire history of basketball.
 
Why?
Because I want to believe that my school is committed to athletics, and I want to believe that in basketball, my school will not settle for mediocre. I also want to believe that my school won't be too scared to make change, and will recognize that each year of mediocre results makes the pending re-build that much longer. I also want to believe that our much ballyhooed AD has a plan and a vision that will allow us to maintain our lofty status in the world of college basketball., while providing avenues for gracious exits for legends of the program that are holding the program hostage......Sadly what I also believe is that none of this is true, and that we will end up hiring whoever JB tells us to and we will continue on this current trend of middle of the road, mediocre basketball.
 
Because I want to believe that my school is committed to athletics, and I want to believe that in basketball, my school will not settle for mediocre. I also want to believe that my school won't be too scared to make change, and will recognize that each year of mediocre results makes the pending re-build that much longer. I also want to believe that our much ballyhooed AD has a plan and a vision that will allow us to maintain our lofty status in the world of college basketball., while providing avenues for gracious exits for legends of the program that are holding the program hostage...Sadly what I also believe is that none of this is true, and that we will end up hiring whoever JB tells us to and we will continue on this current trend of middle of the road, mediocre basketball.
And now the program can make not changes until at least 2022 otherwise SU will lose their highest rated recruit in 20 years.
 
Because I want to believe that my school is committed to athletics, and I want to believe that in basketball, my school will not settle for mediocre. I also want to believe that my school won't be too scared to make change, and will recognize that each year of mediocre results makes the pending re-build that much longer. I also want to believe that our much ballyhooed AD has a plan and a vision that will allow us to maintain our lofty status in the world of college basketball., while providing avenues for gracious exits for legends of the program that are holding the program hostage...Sadly what I also believe is that none of this is true, and that we will end up hiring whoever JB tells us to and we will continue on this current trend of middle of the road, mediocre basketball.
So JB is incapable of picking the successor with the greatest probability of being successful?

Instead we ought to listen to this gaggle of fans on here, amateurs with opinions?

There’s also the problem of finding someone who is willing to bet his currently successful career on taking on this task. My thinking on this is colored by watching the Georgetown hiring process intently. They (Athletic administration, fans, etc.) started off with a grand list of prospects assisted by hired consultants. What they found out was that none of these candidates was interested in the job. they ended up having to almost strong arm an alum into taking the job.
 
So JB is incapable of picking the successor with the greatest probability of being successful?

Instead we ought to listen to this gaggle of fans on here, amateurs with opinions?

There’s also the problem of finding someone who is willing to bet his currently successful career on taking on this task. My thinking on this is colored by watching the Georgetown hiring process intently. They (Athletic administration, fans, etc.) started off with a grand list of prospects assisted by hired consultants. What they found out was that none of these candidates was interested in the job. they ended up having to almost strong arm an alum into taking the job.
Georgetown process was dominated by one man - looks like our process is going to be too. Guess that is why I hope there is someone capable of picking the successor - assuming of course JB isn't the only person on the planet who can possibly choose his replacement.
 
So you are in the “Boeheim is the Problem” camp?

And the road back to past glory is an unnamed and maybe imaginary young coach who will turn this battleship around?

I’m a JB fan with current reservations. I’ll agree, none of us know what lies ahead for the program once he retires. But that day is coming and while it may be a difficult transition, there’s nothing to suggest that a fresh face (and that may be GMac or Autry) can’t find moderate success after a few years. It’ll be a key hire.

JB has been hurt by sanctions (and he owns some of the blame), his age, improvement from other programs and the difficulty recruiting in a new conference without Big East ties.

But it’s clear the zone isn’t as effective as it once was and the offense is generally too dependent on Iso play.

Ideally, it’d be great if JB was 10 years younger. But we all face the reality that his career is coming to a close. I’m in no hurry to chase him out. The Dior Johnson commitment is a sign of hope, and makes us question whether he plans to coach longer than we expected.
 
Any whoa is us person who thinks our little bitty program just isn't good enough to do better than 3 tourney misses and 3 bubble teams in the last six years can go f**k off. That is all.
 
As the captain of the ship, JB is fully culpable for the state of the basketball program. He is responsible for the sanctions, along with the ensuing effects of same, regardless if deemed too harsh. Additionally, being told afterwards by the administration of his 3 year time frame to remain as coach, involuntarily & against his free will, boiled his blood and ate at his core. Furthermore, he checked out on the recruiting trail (planting even deeper roots and further exacerbating the direction of his program and the latent damage he & he alone created because of it) as it was no longer his future, but Hop's.

When Hop unexpectedly & abruptly left, the administration was suddenly at a major crossroads that they clearly did not foresee. Ultimately, the administration decided to keep the status quo in JB. To his astonishment, JB, like a child whose parent after saying no repeatedly to that cookie before dinner, gets his wish granted after all...a stroke of fate/luck. He becomes reinvigorated & reengages in the recruiting scene, but the bleeding had already begun from his culpable conduct and relative behavioral disinterest there. However, although reengaged, the bleeding hasn't stopped, as he has been unsuccessful stabilizing the heartbeat of his (any) program from an overall talent standpoint. His failures on the recruiting trail are causally related to our play on the court, the past several seasons of conference mediocrity and its current state.

This is on him, his ship, his culpability.
 
I’m just trying to help some of you guys get off the little Fantasy Islands you’ve constructed. These are the spots where Boeheim is somehow the problem and his presence is keeping SU from hiring the latest wonder worker who would put SU at the top of the ACC.

That you have converted this wishful thinking into what you think is reality doesn’t make it so.

The world of college basketball has changed for the teams below the handful of elite programs. There’s more balance and parity now. Three of the four traditional Big East powers (SU, Georgetown and UConn) aren’t anywhere near what they once were.

In the Washington Post this morning there’s an article about the “fearsome EasternTriangle” of the Big Ten which includes Penn State and Rutgers. A team from the old Southwest Conference is near the top of the rankings. Seton Hall and even Providence are good.

SU’s rise from Regional “factor” was powered by three things. The miracle of the Big East, the ESPN show casing of SU and the coaching genius of Boeheim. Some might throw the use of the football stadium as a basketball venue in to the mix.

The Big East is a shadow of its former self and there are now dozens of games on, not just a few. Kids in California aren’t rushing home after school to watch SU vs St John’s like they did decades ago.

The next coach will have a huge hill to climb if the expectation is to compete at the top of the ACC. He will be given a very long time to do what he can, because the University won’t be completely sure what is possible.


With all due respect, BS. We have over 20,000 fans per game, we have state of the art facilities in the Melo Center, we have a long tradition of excellence, not just from Boeheim, but from Danforth and Fred Lewis, too.

SU basketball will not die with Jim Boeheim.
 
So JB is incapable of picking the successor with the greatest probability of being successful?


Every indication is that the answer to that question is "yes, Boeheim cannot make the right choice", because his choice will be Gerry McNamara, who has never coached before, and who, despite a couple recent recruiting "wins", is not considered a top recruiter nationally. He was a terrific player for us, even legendary. But he hasn't shown much as a coach yet. So if that's Boeheim's call - and we pretty much know that it is - then that's a failure.
 
Setting aside sanctions and JBs age, could any of this recruiting drop-off be due to the rise of all sorts of other programs, each with their own set of benefits and strengths to recruits.


Without just talking in the abstract, which team is getting the recruits we used to get? If it's not a couple specific teams that are benefitting from our slide (like happened in football - Rutgers and UConn's rise were at the time of our worst teams ...), then your premise is far less supportable.
 
As the captain of the ship, JB is fully culpable for the state of the basketball program. He is responsible for the sanctions, along with the ensuing effects of same, regardless if deemed too harsh. Additionally, being told afterwards by the administration of his 3 year time frame to remain as coach, involuntarily & against his free will, boiled his blood and ate at his core. Furthermore, he checked out on the recruiting trail (planting even deeper roots and further exacerbating the direction of his program and the latent damage he & he alone created because of it) as it was no longer his future, but Hop's.

When Hop unexpectedly & abruptly left, the administration was suddenly at a major crossroads that they clearly did not foresee. Ultimately, the administration decided to keep the status quo in JB. To his astonishment, JB, like a child whose parent after saying no repeatedly to that cookie before dinner, gets his wish granted after all...a stroke of fate/luck. He becomes reinvigorated & reengages in the recruiting scene, but the bleeding had already begun from his culpable conduct and relative behavioral disinterest there. However, although reengaged, the bleeding hasn't stopped, as he has been unsuccessful stabilizing the heartbeat of his (any) program from an overall talent standpoint. His failures on the recruiting trail are causally related to our play on the court, the past several seasons of conference mediocrity and its current state.

This is on him, his ship, his culpability.

Uh, no.

How is JB responsible for Dr Gross and crew deciding to help Fab out w a paper?

He is literally NOT allowed any access on the academic side of things, to prevent tampering by the coach trying to pressure admins or professors to fix student athlete grades.

They notify him if the player is eligible, or not.

JB is responsible for guys getting paid for part-time work at the Y?

Child, please. That’s not how the world works.
 
Uh, no.

How is JB responsible for Dr Gross and crew deciding to help Fab out w a paper?

He is literally NOT allowed any access on the academic side of things, to prevent tampering by the coach trying to pressure admins or professors to fix student athlete grades.

They notify him if the player is eligible, or not.

JB is responsible for guys getting paid for part-time work at the Y?

Child, please. That’s not how the world works.

As I mentioned, it's his ship. Honestly, in 2020 I really haven't the interest in debating the sanctions that came down a half decade or so ago as we discussed it here ad nauseam in many threads over the years. In my opinion, bringing up sanctions today is nothing more than a lame excuse of sorts. Regardless of the argument that the sanctions were too harsh, the fact remains it came under JB's watch...a 2nd time at that. Briefly, my view on the sanctions, as shared by others (as well as those who completely disagree with my sentiment perhaps as you do) is that the sanctions were merely a contributing factor, not the crux of our downward trend. Again, just my opinion without really delving into this debate again a half decade removed...
 
How is JB responsible for Dr Gross and crew deciding to help Fab out w a paper?

The guy who wrote the paper for Fab was hired by JB and reported to JB. That is not what the chain of command should have been and it has been changed in the aftermath of the incident.

He is literally NOT allowed any access on the academic side of things, to prevent tampering by the coach trying to pressure admins or professors to fix student athlete grades.

That is true but, back then, the guy responsible for keeping players eligible was in JB's chain of command.


JB is responsible for guys getting paid for part-time work at the Y?

Child, please. That’s not how the world works.

Unfortunately, yes. He is responsible for guys getting paid at the Y. And, unfortunately, SU hoops lives in the NCAA's world and not the real world. In the real world, JB would be responsible for winning basketball games. Full stop. In the NCAA's world, the coach is responsible for all aspects of the program. It is absurd.
 
Unfortunately, yes. He is responsible for guys getting paid at the Y. And, unfortunately, SU hoops lives in the NCAA's world and not the real world. In the real world, JB would be responsible for winning basketball games. Full stop. In the NCAA's world, the coach is responsible for all aspects of the program. It is absurd.

So in the NCAA's world, if an employee of the NCAA gets so much as a parking ticket, Mark Emmert should be held responsible. I'd like to be there the day he gets fired.
 
Uh, no.

How is JB responsible for Dr Gross and crew deciding to help Fab out w a paper?

He is literally NOT allowed any access on the academic side of things, to prevent tampering by the coach trying to pressure admins or professors to fix student athlete grades.

They notify him if the player is eligible, or not.

JB is responsible for guys getting paid for part-time work at the Y?

Child, please. That’s not how the world works.
you would have the same opinion if Cal, Pitino, Roy, Coach K or anyone else got hit with similar findings?
 
But an all out pursuit of the top rung of the ACC isn’t in the cards, I don’t think.

Just my opinion but I don't think upper echelon of ACC is out of reach...

Indulge me for a moment if you will...

I firmly believe that a perfect storm has resulted in the team that we are putting on the floor today:

1. Sanctions. Left us with a much thinner margin of error with our recruiting and, therefore, the misses become much more significant.

2. Our most prolific recruiter left. That impacted the program threefold: 1) There was a recruiting void created by his departure. 2) Guys, like Stewart, who would be wearing orange today if Hop were still here, went elsewhere. 3) Somebody, either JB or an assistant(s) needed to fill Hop's large recruiting shoes.

3. Misses on guys we either went all-in on and did not get or guys that we did get that haven't yet lived up to their rankings. Misses that we could ill-afford given our recruiting penalties.

The recruiting cycle is not a months-long process. It is a years' long process. Hop starting recruiting Stewart when he was a freshmen. That is four years ago. Unless you are K or Calipari, you don't simply get to walk into a 4 or 5 star recruits living room late in the process and expect to land him.

Therefore, even once JB reengaged in the recruiting process and someone else stepped up to become lead assistant recruiter (no statement on whether or not anyone on current staff can be as good a recruiter as Hop was), it was going to take time for that process to yield results.

So, here we are 3 years later and we have just landed the highest-rated recruit in some time. Hopefully, this is the start of a secular uptick in recruiting that will persist even once JB leaves the nest.

Bottom line, I don't think you have to sell out, as you put it, to be successful in basketball the way you clearly do in football - at least not yet. You just need to get back to recruiting the same type of talent that you were recruiting a mere 5-6 years ago. Not saying it is easy or a no-brainer that it gets done but I do think it is more doable than you imply it is.
 
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So in the NCAA's world, if an employee of the NCAA gets so much as a parking ticket, Mark Emmert should be held responsible. I'd like to be there the day he gets fired.
Do you disagree with anything I wrote in my post?
 

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