I don't understand the bashing of JB and Wildhack

[tbonezone]

i don't remember the pearl for the walter berry block or the navy loss. i remember 26-6 and conference champs. those 2 tourney losses don't define that season. i remember respect.

 

[MikeSU02]

JW has had mixed results throughout his tenure so far for various reasons. As of now I give him a passing grade for sure. But the real test will come when he has to find a replacement for JB, find a new womens basketball coach and if/when he has to find a new football coach. He knocked it out of the park with the lax hires and helping Dino this off-season so he has a good track record there so far. He has done a nice job with faciltiy upgrades, fundraising, etc…and nice to see a womens athlete finally get her jersey retired (and hopefully the next Cuse WBB basketball coach).

On the other hand, he handled the Womens Basketball scandal horribly. He also handled Scanlon and the lax scandal horribly. Both made the athletic program look pretty bad.

As for JB. It’s not just the last 2 seasons. This program has been stale/on the decline since Hop left and even a couple so/so seasons before he left. That falls on JB and his coaching has left a lot to be desired. Eventually Wildhack has to ask himself are we okay just being a bubble team or worse each season. Before the Hop left most seasons we were wondering if we were gonna be the 1,2 or 3 seed in the NCAA tourney…now we are wondering if we are gonna even finish .500?? It’s pretty obvious things are not going well with the program if you don’t have your orange colored glasses on and they’ll continue to go that way until JB leaves unfortunately. To be honest that 2017 team had the makings to be a really good team and a final four team…and we didn’t even make the NCAAs. I think that’s when everything really started going south and that’s also the year Hop left.

Re JW, he seems to have strength in fundraising (and even giving $1M donation himself) and he has been doing well, seemingly, in terms of the coaching world, as you note.

I will say the women's bball and the lax scandals were pretty bad. Those were significant and, imo, are things that he has to carry with him.

The same reason I worry about having an alum as an assistant coach (or our case, all three) is the same reason I worry about having an alum as AD - potential deference to JB that compromises the integrity of the job that has to be done.

Maybe JW will be fine with the transition from JB, but since the blown up first planned transition, I've been worried about it.

 

[Alsacs]

Sobering.

6 out of his 7 worst seasons have come in the last 8 years. I guess that dispels the "there is no extended decline" argument.

I don’t get why people are trying to say this is all about 2 yeara.
It’s not 2 years.
Just be honest in the debate. Even if you are okay with downturn like Milhouse has said.

 

[RF2044]

I don’t get why people are trying to say this is all about 2 yeara.
It’s not 2 years.
Just be honest in the debate. Even if you are okay with downturn like Milhouse has said.

It seems as though the fanbase is clustering into a couple of different groups with respect to this topic:

• Those dissatisfied with the 8 year decline, and desire change to break the subpar trend of status quo
• Those who are okay letting JB continue in perpetuity for as long as he'd like, because he's "earned" it -- even if the results don't measure up
• Those who don't see anything wrong with program performance, and consider this year to be a one-off
• Those who think that JB is going to hand pick his successor

 

[721Comstock]

It seems as though the fanbase is clustering into a couple of different groups with respect to this topic:

• Those dissatisfied with the 8 year decline, and desire change to break the subpar trend of status quo
• Those who are okay letting JB continue in perpetuity for as long as he'd like, because he's "earned" it
• Those who don't see anything wrong with program performance, and consider this year to be a one-off
• Those who think that JB is going to hand pick his successor

Nah - the Venn diagram of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th bullet points may not be a circle, but it's got a LOTTA overlap.

 

[RF2044]

Nah - the Venn diagram of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th bullet points may not be a circle, but it's got a LOTTA overlap.

Personally, I don't think 2 is anything like 3 or 4.

 

[721Comstock]

Personally, I don't think 2 is anything like 3 or 4.

I didn't say the points were similar, just that many of the same people would likely express all 3 of them.

You don't think many of the "Jim can coach Syracuse for life" crowd -
don't also think this season is an aberration, AND that he should get to hand-pick his successor?

All righty, then.
We will agree to disagree.

 

[orangecuse]

Personally, I don't think 2 is anything like 3 or 4.

Personally, "I don't understand" how there's a couple of different groups, yet four separate 'those' bullet points.

 

[RF2044]

I didn't say the points were similar, just that many of the same people would likely express all 3 of them.

You don't think many of the "Jim can coach Syracuse for life" crowd -
don't also think this season is an aberration, AND that he should get to hand-pick his successor?

All righty, then.
We will agree to disagree.

That's fine.

No, I don't see the categories as being the same. Here's how I view the differences between them:

1. A clean break and fresh start are needed to jumpstart this sleeping giant [examples -- you and me]
2. I'm disappointed that the program isn't doing as well as it used to, but JB has earned the right to go out on his own terms even if results suffer short term [Millhouse, given what he expressed earlier in this thread]
3. You guys are crazy -- there's nothing wrong with the program, you're overreacting to one bad year [The Cusian - with all due respect]
4. JB's been here 46 years, the next hire is definitely sitting on the bench [KCSU]

Probably didn't explain it clearly enough [and still might not have]. But I view 2 as acknowledging that things are in the tank but giving JB a lifetime achievement award pass. 3 as not seeing the problem. And 4 as embracing the insanity definition.

 

[pearl31]

That's fine.

No, I don't see the categories as being the same, but there certainly could be some overlap. Here's how I view the differences between them:

1. A clean break and fresh start are needed to jumpstart this sleeping giant [examples -- you and me]
2. I'm disappointed that the program isn't doing as well as it used to, but JB has earned the right to go out on his own terms even if results suffer short term [Millhouse, given what he expressed earlier in this thread]
3. You guys are crazy -- there's nothing wrong with the program, you're overreacting to one bad year [The Cusian - with all due respect]
4. JB's been here 46 years, the next hire is definitely sitting on the bench [KCSU]

hmm, but as 721 points out there are many of us that probably fall into at least two of those categories - like I, personally, am now a heavy #1 but am also inclined to believe parts of #2, and would actually tend to agree with those that subscribe to #4

Edit: and as to #4 - should that be the case? Eh probably not. But realistically, will it be the case? in my view, most likely yes

 

[Madbiker]

can anyone think of any other alleged basketball power house that this is true for?

Maryland seems to have fallen off a cliff since leaving the ACC. Though a much shorter cliff than SU.

 

[djcon57]

Maryland seems to have fallen off a cliff since leaving the ACC. Though a much shorter cliff than SU.

Maryland was a 6 seed in 2019 and 2017.
5 in 2016
4 in 2015

but yeah their program is in rough shape, agree with that

 

[manleyzoo]

Like everyone on this board I am really disappointed in this season. But I really have a tough time understanding how this board has become nothing but a place to complain about JB and JW.

Since JW has been there SU has turned a tired looking facility into one of the best college stadium's in the country. The new Lally center is going to be a big boost to recruiting. The AD has a bit more to do than just hire and fire coaches.

The bashing of JB over the past two seasons is ridiculous, the entire country has been impacted by the Covid pandemic the past two years, why wouldn't we expect it to impact the the quality of play of everyone of our sports teams? This is not a bad team, it took them a while to figure out how to play together, but they fought every minute of every game this season and is capable of beating every team in the ACC except for Duke. IF JB is such a bad coach how did Jesse become such a force from his freshman season to his sophomore season? If we didn't loose him to the injury I believe we would have 3-4 more wins this year. Joe may not be the player that many thought he would, he was recruited by Duke and many other top programs, he decided on SU, he makes some mistakes but damn he plays hard and makes a lot of 3 pointers and I believe he will kick ass next year.

What really bothers me are people saying JB should retire because of his age, I listen to him speak and I don't see that he has lost any of his mental faculties, he appears to be in very good physical condition and he loves to coach. Why should he retire? We have one of our best recruiting classes in years coming in, Jesse should be coming back, next year will be another great year of SU basketball and I love that SU has one of the greatest of all time as its leader.

Just playing hard and competing is a pretty low bar. You can't get on the court if you don't do that at a minimum. As has been said repeatedly you are what your record says you are.

 

[tbonezone]

Maryland was a 6 seed in 2019 and 2017.
5 in 2016
4 in 2015

but yeah their program is in rough shape, agree with that

not lacrosse.

 

[miamicuse]

Personally, I don't think 2 is anything like 3 or 4.

I look at it differently, if I am to group how folks feel about the state of the program and JB, I will put them into two mutually exclusive groups.

(A) everything is fine, we are right where we want to be.
(B) the program is on a decline...

and in group B there are multiple sub-groups:

(B1) It's on a nose dive, it's JB's fault, the sanctions, the recruiting fails, daddy ball, the exodus to the portal last year, everything. Fire him.
(B2) It's not all on him, but as HC he is ultimately responsible, and with him being 77, a succession is inevitable so better do it sooner than later.
(B3) It's mostly his fault but it's his program and his court he earned the equity to coach till whenever he wants to.
(B4) It's on a decline but if you look at the S16 and F4 appearances during the last decades it's not bad, many D1 programs would love to be in our shoes and JB will lead the program back to the glory days.

These groups in B are not mutually exclusive. Some may feel 3 & 4 at the same time, and some may jump from 1 to 3 depends on which day of the week, or even to the scores of the last game we play.

Now who should/would succeed JB is a totally independent question.

 

[pearl31]

I look at it differently, if I am to group how folks feel about the state of the program and JB, I will put them into two mutually exclusive groups.

(A) everything is fine, we are right where we want to be.
(B) the program is on a decline...

and in group B there are multiple sub-groups:

(B1) It's on a nose dive, it's JB's fault, the sanctions, the recruiting fails, daddy ball, the exodus to the portal last year, everything. Fire him.
(B2) It's not all on him, but as HC he is ultimately responsible, and with him being 77, a succession is inevitable so better do it sooner than later.
(B3) It's mostly his fault but it's his program and his court he earned the equity to coach till whenever he wants to.
(B4) It's on a decline but if you look at the S16 and F4 appearances during the last decades it's not bad, many D1 programs would love to be in our shoes and JB will lead the program back to the glory days.

These groups in B are not mutually exclusive. Some may feel 3 & 4 at the same time, and some may jump from 1 to 3 depends on which day of the week, or even to the scores of the last game we play.

Now who should/would succeed JB is a totally independent question.

yeah, this is pretty good

 

[OrangeDW]

Just playing hard and competing is a pretty low bar. You can't get on the court if you don't do that at a minimum. As has been said repeatedly you are what your record says you are.

Right? And frankly, I don’t think this team tries any harder than any of the other teams out there or our other past teams. That’s just something people say when they want to be nice, when the team sucks.

And some of them might try less hard. The number of lazy and nonexistent close outs or contests of shots, and the way some guys shuffle after loose balls or watch rebounds bounce on the floor in front of them….cmon.

 

[pfister1]

Hmmm does the period of decline match when we moved to the ACC and started playing conference opponents that required travel to NC, GA and FL rather than more regional opponents in PA, NJ, NY etc.

 

[syrBossHogg]

Hmmm does the period of decline match when we moved to the ACC and started playing conference opponents that required travel to NC, GA and FL rather than more regional opponents in PA, NJ, NY etc.

Such a tired and lazy take

 

[pfister1]

Such a tired and lazy take

I assure you I am tired, but not lazy and I am able to offer something meaningful, unlike you apparently.

 

[syrBossHogg]

I assure you I am tired, but not lazy and I am able to offer something meaningful, unlike you apparently.

Which recruits have we missed because we're in the ACC now, besides Andre Jackson who is averaging only 6 and 5 as a sophomore at Storrs?

 

[longislandcuse]

I’m grading with a handicap and we can’t even accomplish that.

I understand the college football landscape shift. I know we’ll never really be a title contender again. I just want winning seasons, with the stars aligning every 5-6 years where we are top 20 and maybe even contend for an ACCCG.

In basketball, I just want to be a top 25 team that every once in a while has a legit contender. Not to be the quintessential bubble team that lives in the middle of the ACC standings.

 

[Dinkyspond]

I’m grading with a handicap and we can’t even accomplish that.

I understand the college football landscape shift. I know we’ll never really be a title contender again. I just want winning seasons, with the stars aligning every 5-6 years where we are top 20 and maybe even contend for an ACCCG.

In basketball, I just want to be a top 25 team that every once in a while has a legit contender. Not to be the quintessential bubble team that lives in the middle of the ACC standings.

this^ is spot on

 

[pfister1]

Which recruits have we missed because we're in the ACC now, besides Andre Jackson who is averaging only 6 and 5 as a sophomore at Storrs?

How would you know who we might have been in play for before the move that we were never in play for after the move to the ACC because they wanted to play against NE teams where their friends or rivals went, or where friends and family members would be able to see them live on court, etc.

You really have no idea how it may have impacted recruiting. It’s not only about a guy’s final decision.

 

[NKR1978]

It seems as though the fanbase is clustering into a couple of different groups with respect to this topic:

• Those dissatisfied with the 8 year decline, and desire change to break the subpar trend of status quo
• Those who are okay letting JB continue in perpetuity for as long as he'd like, because he's "earned" it -- even if the results don't measure up
• Those who don't see anything wrong with program performance, and consider this year to be a one-off
• Those who think that JB is going to hand pick his successor

I'd say he earned up to this year. He got to coach his sons. That's a wonderful gift that Syracuse gave back to JB.

He's never going to change. He needs a new assistant that didn't play for him and doesn't revere him. That's the only way next year will be better. Dino cleaned house (thankfully) when things were going terribly. Why can't basketball be held to the same standard?