JT III Out at Georgetown | Page 6 | Syracusefan.com

JT III Out at Georgetown

Bayside44 said:
Great read.[/QUOTE)

Yup!

One of my best friends here in DC was for a short time a coach at a Catholic high school in the area many years ago. But he remained part of the network and sub-culture through the years. He was very familiar with all of this and told me many times what a vindictive SOB Big John was. And that there would never be any statute of limitations on his anger or his sense of being wronged.

The fact that Georgetown could not recruit a DeMatha player for almost 40 years stands in testimony. Being a local DI team and not being able to recruit at the local high school powerhouse is bizarre to start with. The school has put more players in the NBA than any other program in the country. (Some say DeMatha is a sports program with an associated high school and not the opposite)

GU hiring a DeMatha guy would do a couple of things. It would hopefully sever the hold that Big John has there. And it would allow GU to recruit DeMatha players beyond the one guy.

But let me tell you this, sports fans. Big John ain't going down without a knock-down drag out fight. It takes somebody of the stature of Tagliabue to do it.

Or they can go the other way and hire someone that will placate Big John.

As I said in an earlier post, I wouldn't touch that job with a ten foot pole.

When JB stops coaching, he needs to clear out his office and keep is opinions to himself. A new coach doesn't need the old one hanging around. JB, I think, knows this.

Big John, so far, hasn't figured that out. He's been the one manipulating the puppet's strings. And he isn't going to stop voluntarily.
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Townie72 said:
Those of you who were rooting for JB to retire sooner rather than later might want to watch how this plays out and how each of the candidates is flawed in some way.

Georgetown, in many ways, is equivalent to SU.
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Can you elaborate on this comment?

I agree with your basic premise, that replacing JB is not going to be as easy as many on the board seem to think.

But I don't see how Georgetown and Syracuse are equivalent in many ways. I assume you mean the HC job at Georgetown is equivalent to the HC job at Syracuse in many ways.

I suppose there are a fair number of alums at both schools that have unrealistic expectations.

Neither school has historically spent a lot of money hiring big name coaches. Both have been reluctant to make many changes to the HC position.

But Georgetown has next to no fanbase.

Georgetown is in a conference with almost no income from media. Further, the Big East has nowhere near the visibility the ACC has in terms of television.

Georgetown has been a bad basketball program for 4 years now. Here is their record over that time:

18-15 (8-10) NIT
22-11 (12-6) NCAA
15-18 (7-11)
14-18 (5-13)

They haven't been involved with a top recruit in years and haven't been nationally relevant forever.
 
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sutomcat said:
Can you elaborate on this comment?

I agree with your basic premise, that replacing JB is not going to be as easy as many on the board seem to think.

But I don't see how Georgetown and Syracuse are equivalent in many ways. I assume you mean the HC job at Georgetown is equivalent to the HC job at Syracuse in many ways.

I suppose there are a fair number of alums at both schools that have unrealistic expectations.

Neither school has historically spent a lot of money hiring big name coaches. Both have been reluctant to make many changes to the HC position.

But Georgetown has next to no fanbase.

Georgetown is in a conference with almost no income from media. Further, the Big East has nowhere near the visibility the ACC has in terms of television.

Georgetown has been a bad basketball program for 4 years now. Here is their record over that time:

18-15 (8-10) NIT
22-11 (12-6) NCAA
15-18 (7-11)
14-18 (5-13)

They haven't been involved with a top recruit in years and haven't been nationally relevant in forever.
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Georgetown has been down lately. No question. And we have been better.

But there are "Puts and takes" in the comparison between the two. And in my mind, the GU brand and program are roughly equivalent to SU's and the opportunity to do well as an incoming coach isn't drastically better at either school.

If anyone thinks that SU is somehow in a different tier or category as a college basketball program, I'd take general issue with that. We aren't Duke, Kansas or Kentucky and GU isn't Providence or Seton Hall (yet).

Georgetown is still a basketball "name brand" to the average fan. It still garners a lot of media attention. If it didn't we wouldn't be involved in OOC "Home and Home" games with them.

In it's favor, Georgetown is in a major media market, in a location FULL of DI prospects (Maybe the best in the US). There are alot of candidates that are connected to the area (e.g. Mike Brey, Shaka Smart). It's academically superior to SU and it's location in DC offers many more things to see and do, including nearby Howard University which has served as a off-practice hours home for GU BB players for decades. And if you're making a couple of $million a year, your wife is going to prefer DC to Jamesville. There's many more places here to spend all that money.

I think that if anyone thinks when it comes to shopping for a new coach that we will be looking at a different set of coaches at a different level of accomplishments, I don't buy into that.
 
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sutomcat said:
Can you elaborate on this comment?

I agree with your basic premise, that replacing JB is not going to be as easy as many on the board seem to think.

But I don't see how Georgetown and Syracuse are equivalent in many ways. I assume you mean the HC job at Georgetown is equivalent to the HC job at Syracuse in many ways.

I suppose there are a fair number of alums at both schools that have unrealistic expectations.

Neither school has historically spent a lot of money hiring big name coaches. Both have been reluctant to make many changes to the HC position.

But Georgetown has next to no fanbase.

Georgetown is in a conference with almost no income from media. Further, the Big East has nowhere near the visibility the ACC has in terms of television.

Georgetown has been a bad basketball program for 4 years now. Here is their record over that time:

18-15 (8-10) NIT
22-11 (12-6) NCAA
15-18 (7-11)
14-18 (5-13)

They haven't been involved with a top recruit in years and haven't been nationally relevant in forever.
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May be talking to the difficulty of attracting a new coach while another's legacy still looms. Even though JT III is out, the JT legacy still hangs large over Georgetown. It may not be attractive for a solid coach to leave an already good situation to coach a team that may involve having JT Jr. just barking in his ear or sounding off disapproval. May be an equivalent to what we'd find with JB still looming around the dome and program after retiring, though I doubt it. I think JB will be done and will want nothing more than to just be a face in the dome when alls said and done. Who knows though, I think townie has a solid point.
 
Townie legit thinks Georgetown(and their 10 fans) is a better basketball program than Syracuse. He loco.
 
Cusefan0307 said:
Townie legit thinks Georgetown(and their 10 fans) is a better basketball program than Syracuse. He loco.
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It's not better but I would say the jobs are close to equal. I would say Syracuse is 8-12 job and Georgetown is top 20.

JT II is the problem for them. I don't see JB going to every game courtside like JTII has done.
 
Alsacs said:
It's not better but I would say the jobs are close to equal. I would say Syracuse is 8-12 job and Georgetown is top 20.

JT II is the problem for them. I don't see JB going to every game courtside like JTII has done.
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Maybe. St. Johns was as well 20 years ago and they have a lot of the same advantages Georgetown does. Must suck for them to be out performed consistently the last few years by the Seton Hall and Providences of the Big East.
 
Cusefan0307 said:
Maybe. St. Johns was as well 20 years ago and they have a lot of the same advantages Georgetown does. Must suck for them to be out performed consistently the last few years by the Seton Hall and Providences of the Big East.
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It's coaching.
Cooley is a good coach.
Willard is getting talent.
JTIII isn't getting the talent and his offense keeps tempo slow. Which reduces margin for error.

His system works against us because we play slow as well.

St. John's came back when the players recruited by Norm Roberts were Seniors by Steve Lavin. Lavin just didn't recruit well after. The Johnnies can be solid if Xavier and butler can.
 
Cusefan0307 said:
Townie legit thinks Georgetown(and their 10 fans) is a better basketball program than Syracuse. He loco.
Expand...

With this kind of response, I'm starting to doubt my writing skills.

In said, or tried to say, they were in the same ballpark.

But you can see from his response 0307 isn't looking at this from the standpoint of a coach taking over a program. The number of fans isn't the first thing this person will look at.

More likely he'll look at:
The compensation package
The length of the deal
What the expectations are and how achievable he thinks they are. (Easier is better than harder)
The people he will be working for and with and the extent to which he likes/trusts them
The Recruiting task - How hard will it be to get the recruits he needs
The Resources in place.
What's the Future hold if he is successful. Is this job an end destination or a stepping stone to the NBA or even bigger programs
 
Townie72 said:
With this kind of response, I'm starting to doubt my writing skills.

In said, or tried to say, they were in the same ballpark.

But you can see from his response 0307 isn't looking at this from the standpoint of a coach taking over a program. The number of fans isn't the first thing this person will look at.

More likely he'll look at:
The compensation package
The length of the deal
What the expectations are and how achievable he thinks they are. (Easier is better than harder)
The people he will be working for and with and the extent to which he likes/trusts them
The Recruiting task - How hard will it be to get the recruits he needs
The Resources in place.
What's the Future hold if he is successful. Is this job an end destination or a stepping stone to the NBA or even bigger programs
Expand...
I'm with you townie. I actually like the candidates I've seen for Gtown. Now I'm not sure whether they are legit or not, but I would gladly take them at Syracuse. Shaka Smart, Amaker, Danny Hurley, I'd be good with any of them. Are there fans who actually think we could do better than those guys?
 
FWIW, a friend was sitting at a table next to Mike Brey at a Starbucks in Clarendon, which is the trendy (See Bayside..skinny jeans) area of Arlington, VA. Hearing from another person he's interested in the job.
 
Bill Orange said:
FWIW, a friend was sitting at a table next to Mike Brey at a Starbucks in Clarendon, which is the trendy (See Bayside..skinny jeans) area of Arlington, VA. Hearing from another person he's interested in the job.
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See I like the Gtown candidates. Brey is a great one, if true. As Townie said, its in fertile recruiting grounds, with a winnable conference, and a big paycheck. Easier to win the Big East than the ACC. I truly hope when JB retires we get the same level of interest they are getting.
 
jr4750 said:
I'm with you townie. I actually like the candidates I've seen for Gtown. Now I'm not sure whether they are legit or not, but I would gladly take them at Syracuse. Shaka Smart, Amaker, Danny Hurley, I'd be good with any of them. Are there fans who actually think we could do better than those guys?
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Who knows? Of course, this is the shopping list of the fans.

But I do get the sense that some SU fans have a very high opinion of the program and who might be attracted.

How many times have we heard let's get rid of JB so we can get a really good coach.
 
I can't see Brey leaving ND for Gtown unless he wants to be closer to home.

His hiring will divide that fanbase up like the article linked a page back outlined.

There will be a significant portion of that fanbase boosters who will be loyal to JTII. Brey is making good money at ND where BB mediocrity is okay because they care about FB.

If Brey flamed out at Gtown early he would be under pressure.
 
Alsacs said:
I can't see Brey leaving ND for Gtown unless he wants to be closer to home.

His hiring will divide that fanbase up like the article linked a page back outlined.

There will be a significant portion of that fanbase boosters who will be loyal to JTII. Brey is making good money at ND where BB mediocrity is okay because they care about FB.

If Brey flamed out at Gtown early he would be under pressure.
Expand...

I hope it is Brey, if only for the entertainment value. (But as Celeck says "Why?")

It would be a huge thumb in JT Jr's eye. (See Deadspin article by Gene Wang). But it would definitely break JT Jr's hold over the program or at least attempt to do it.

You talk about a "break from the past"? Well, this is what what of them looks like. It's almost like they were baiting Big John into a response. And Brey is white, too.
 
This situation at GU with JT still there (with an office and a paycheck) reminds me of a line I heard the other day about marriage and divorce.

"Don't marry anyone you wouldn't want to be divorced from" (Or something like that.)

Trust me, GU doesn't want to be divorced from Big John.

Go ahead. You go tell him to clear out his office.
 
Well, now that both Brey and Shaka have told Georgetown that they have no interest in the job, just a hint of reality is starting to sink in over at Hoyatalk.

It's the same thing that happens at almost every school. The fans think the job as the HC of the school they follow is much more attractive than the possible candidates do.

The Maryland fans after Gary W. retired were shocked when they had to settle for Turgeon. The GU fans have ratcheted down their expectations to slightly less improbable candidates like Ed Cooley. A guy for whom GU would only be a slight upgrade. Or Tommy Amaker, who has a pretty good thing going at Harvard and some bad memories of what happened at Michigan.

Some are even shopping lower on the coaching totem pole.

The humor in this, of course, is the realization that the resume of the current coach at Mount St Mary's is probably worse than that of fired coach, John Thompson III.

But when they were calling for JTIII's firing, they envisioned getting a top coach. (Kind of reminds me of those who were calling for JB to quit or who are looking forward to the end of next season or the season after that when WE CAN FINALLY GET THE COACH WE NEED AND DESERVE. (Defined as someone that agrees with them.)

Now Georgetown is shopping at a whole different level.

Some even want Patrick Ewing. Of course, that has a lot to do with the Big John's legacy and the preference of many of their fans for a black head coach.

But they might be forced in that direction because guys like Cooley would recognize that as long as Big John is on campus with an office and a statue in front of the John Thompson Athletic Building that there's no chance he would really run things at Georgetown.

Big John kept a feud up with Morgan Wooten for 40 years, even though he could have used DeMatha players. And to think that he is going to let this firing of his namesake just go, is not reasonable.
 
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