Last Jedi Discussion (WITH SPOILERS)

[HoustonCuse]

Excellent points. I agree with most if not all of them.

Love your point about arguing the physics of Star Wars. If someone is doing that, they're definately missing the point.

I have some issue with this. I won't argue the physics per se, but the stuff has to be consistent and make sense within the universe they've created. The best example is the destruction of Snoke's ship. The chase would have never happened because they have the ability to jump to any point in space - shown multitudes of times. The First Order could simply have re-positioned to a place within range of their weapons. Then when the Resistance was able to destroy Snoke's ship with a hyperspace jump - it was super cool but leads to really basic questions such as, why has neither side weaponized such a strategy. Imagine how many orders of magnitude easier it would be to destroy the Death Star for example with a couple asteroids fitted with hyperdrives. Even the smallest craft in Star Wars have hyperdrives, it isn't that hard.

So maybe I'm categorized as diving too deep but these are such basic things about the world these films occur in that I'm not sure how they can be ignored. Especially when they make it a point of the film for the Resistance leadership to bemoan losses of life. All the while ordering suicidal frontal charges on massive enemy ships instead of launch a rock at it and destroying it.

 

[maxxyz]

It's hard to define how I feel about Star Wars movies. I was 14 when episode IV came out, and it was an paradigm shift in my life. When the prequels came out, I was underwhelmed and disappointed, but tried to look at the positives. When Force Awakens came out it revived a part of my childhood, and Rogue One added to my hopes of a revitalization of what was great about episodes 4-6, and I liked 8 and look forward to 9.

If you're younger than 35, I'm not sure I could truly convey in words how invested I was in the the series, but Kevin Smith (director of the Clerks movies amongst others) put into words what I can't on his Fatman on Batman vlog. its long (90 minutes) and he is a definate fanboy, but he hits on so many of the reasons why I'm not bothered by the things in Last Jedi that seem to be tweeking so many folks. If you are a "Last Jedi SUCKS" person this likely will not change your mind, but it resonated with me.

 

[maxxyz]

So maybe I'm categorized as diving too deep but these are such basic things about the world these films occur in that I'm not sure how they can be ignored. Especially when they make it a point of the film for the Resistance leadership to bemoan losses of life. All the while ordering suicidal frontal charges on massive enemy ships instead of launch a rock at it and destroying it.

Consistency is important, but in my mind the physics of the Stars Wars Universe is whatever Rian Johnson wrote into the script. The First Order didn't try to flank the Resistance ships using light speed. Maybe you can't make short jumps in light speed. Maybe they would run the risk of hitting another ship. Who knows? But for whatever reason they didn't try to do that, and since they didn't there must be a reason why.

On a sub-Reddit there was an argument about why didn't Luke just raise up the submerged X-wing fighter and fly to Crait and confront Kylo Ren and the First Order in person? It was proposed that an XWing requires a droid (such as R2D2) to perform light speed jumps.

You can always come up with a reason, but is it worthwhile to use ten minutes of screen time trying to explain it? And whatever the explanation, it won't be science. It's fantasy.

 

[orange79]

And whatever the explanation, it won't be science. It's fantasy.

Wait... what?

 

[maxxyz]

Wait... what?

There are lots of things we take as gospel in Star Wars that are not based on science. Light sabers, light speed jumps, deflector shields, blasters, etc. are all imaginative ways of allowing the story to advance (e.g. without deflector shields a space battle would be very short) and light speed jumps are a writing creation to explain how a character can travel enormous distances between planets without it taking 50 years. But there is no "science" to explain any of this, just vague speculation that allows us to suspend our disbelief.

 

[orange79]

There are lots of things we take as gospel in Star Wars that are not based on science. Light sabers, light speed jumps, deflector shields, blasters, etc. are all imaginative ways of allowing the story to advance (e.g. without deflector shields a space battle would be very short) and light speed jumps are a writing creation to explain how a character can travel enormous distances between planets without it taking 50 years. But there is no "science" to explain any of this, just vague speculation that allows us to suspend our disbelief.

In all honesty, I was joking.

 

[maxxyz]

In all honesty, I was joking.

Sorry - my sarcasm alert is broken

 

[orange79]

Sorry - my sarcasm alert is broken

I forgot to use the sarcasm font.

 

[AZOrange]

Finally saw it today (don't ask). So I held off on reading this thread until just now. Liked it a lot, but didn't love it. I'll try to make some stream-of-conscience points (many brought up earlier in this thread, so apologies if I'm going over a point already brought up) - but I've only seen it once, so I could have things very wrong.

• Rey, I think, based on Luke's soliloquy and the things we saw in the movie, could turn out to be a "Gray' Jedi - combining qualities of both the Dark side and the Light side. Mostly the 'good' side, because I can't see the series ending with Rey fully turning to the Dark side. Someone brought up something similar earlier in the thread (AZOrange?) - sorry if I am repeating a topic.
  
• I really liked the kids at the end, sewing the seed of the renewal of the Jedi faith/organization/Resistance/whatever. The spark of hope.
• I agree with others that I was surprised Leia wasn't 'killed off'. Would have been the perfect situation to do that. It will be interesting to see what they do in Episode IX. I hope we don't see a 'oh, btw, Princess Leia died/got killed' situation.
  
• I also agree that we will see plenty of Luke in the next film, but was a little disappointed he 'died' in this movie. Seemed perfect to kill him off in Episode IX and then have one final appearance as a Force Ghost at or near the end.
• I don't have a problem with Snoke not realizing Kylo was about to kill him. Same thing that happened to Palpatine in ROTJ - his absorption with eliminating the one who could be his main rival blinded him to what was happening around him. Agree with maxxyz (?) here.
  
• Am I the only one who thinks we haven't seen the last of Captain Phasma?
• Don't agree with the folks panning the performance of Rose. Certainly not Oscar material, but I bought it.
• I picked up on most the the physics inconsistencies, but I let them go. Because it's Star Wars. Suspend belief.
• It occurred to me early on in the sequence that Luke was not really there (don't know why, but it was my first thought), so it was no surprise to me that being run through by Kylo's light saber had no effect (let alone the bombardment from the First Order ground force). I'm guessing the story is that it took so much out of him, it was the end of him in a mortal form.
• I get they are trying to present Kylo Ren as conflicted, but I wish he wasn't so emo.
• I will be disappointed if in Episode IX Rey's parents are not revealed to be Leia and Chewbacca.
• I agree with some in this thread that the film could have been cut down a bit - there was a lot going on.
• I am so glad the Porg did not take on the same importance and screen time that the Ewoks did in ROTJ. I was legitimately concerned about that going in.
  
• As someone else mentioned, I was able to make it through the entire movie without a bathroom break. That in itself is cause for celebration (at least for me).
  
• In terms of the middle episode of the trilogies, it certainly was no TESB (which in my opinion, is the best of the entire series). But I liked it.

That's all I've got. Come back at me with what I have wrong. Can't wait to see it again to see what I missed.

Great summary. I’d be shocked if ultimately a Skywalker doesn’t prevail here and balance comes to the force. If not, then the first 8 movies were pointless.

 

[DoubleDee]

The boy and I watched Rogue One again tonight. Seriously might be the best of the nine.

 

[AZOrange]

The boy and I watched Rogue One again tonight. Seriously might be the best of the nine.

Love R1. Great story and writing. But TESB is the best ever

 

[DoubleDee]

Love R1. Great story and writing. But TESB is the best ever

Yes that’s always been my top as well. Rogue certainly gives it a run tho.

 

[Alsacs]

My ranking of the 9 Star Wars cannon films.
1. Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope


3. Return of the Jedi

4. Rogue One
5. Force Awakens
6. Revenge of the Sith

7. The Last Jedi



8. Phantom Menace








9. Attack of the Clones( By far the worst)

Space between represents my gaps between films.

 

[HoustonCuse]

There are lots of things we take as gospel in Star Wars that are not based on science. Light sabers, light speed jumps, deflector shields, blasters, etc. are all imaginative ways of allowing the story to advance (e.g. without deflector shields a space battle would be very short) and light speed jumps are a writing creation to explain how a character can travel enormous distances between planets without it taking 50 years. But there is no "science" to explain any of this, just vague speculation that allows us to suspend our disbelief.

I get all that and I have no issue with impossible stuff like light speed travel. Just that if you can just make up a new rule or effect, or property of the world every time you need it, there really isn't much to be invested in. But even stuff like Luke's projection of himself using the force. I have no problem with that at all. We haven't quite seen that before but it doesn't violate any well established rules about what the force can do. So cool. But forgetting that you can jump to any point in space instantaneously while chasing down your mortal enemy who is just out of range? Its not ok. It cheapens the plot to complete fluff.

 

[HoustonCuse]

It's hard to define how I feel about Star Wars movies. I was 14 when episode IV came out, and it was an paradigm shift in my life. When the prequels came out, I was underwhelmed and disappointed, but tried to look at the positives. When Force Awakens came out it revived a part of my childhood, and Rogue One added to my hopes of a revitalization of what was great about episodes 4-6, and I liked 8 and look forward to 9.

If you're younger than 35, I'm not sure I could truly convey in words how invested I was in the the series, but Kevin Smith (director of the Clerks movies amongst others) put into words what I can't on his Fatman on Batman vlog. its long (90 minutes) and he is a definate fanboy, but he hits on so many of the reasons why I'm not bothered by the things in Last Jedi that seem to be tweeking so many folks. If you are a "Last Jedi SUCKS" person this likely will not change your mind, but it resonated with me.

I actually watched this in its entirety the other day. If you haven't seen his Rogue One version of this, it is good too. I will say that goodness this guy is so addled by pot that he's just a wreck.

 

[maxxyz]

My ranking of the 9 Star Wars cannon films.
1. Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi
4. Rogue One
5. Force Awakens
6. Revenge of the Sith
7. The Last Jedi
8. Phantom Menace
9. Attack of the Clones( By far the worst)

My list;
A New Hope
Empire Strikes Back
Force Awakens
Rogue One
The Last Jedi
Return of the Jedi
Revenge of the Sith
Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones

 

[maxxyz]

But forgetting that you can jump to any point in space instantaneously while chasing down your mortal enemy who is just out of range? Its not ok. It cheapens the plot to complete fluff.

Has it ever been defined in the canon of movies that you can jump to any point in space? Or for short distances? I've search my nerd storage banks and didn't find any example of it. The only thing that has been defined over and over is how dangerous it is.

 

[CuseCPT]

I agree with Houston about the hyperspace thing, both the First Order's inability to jump a few Star Destroyers ahead and the hyperspace ram. I am a huge Star Wars nerd, and it is pretty jarring. It would be like a Star Trek movie where theY inexplicably refused to use their transporters in a situation that just screamed for them. I get that the function of Star Wars spaceships won't bother a casual fan, but I'm not a casual fan.

The Leia thing actually didn't bother me as much. In one of the books a jedi escaped across a swamp by using the force to freeze a path they could walk on. I think the Leia seen could have been redeemed if they showed her close her eyes to concentrate when the bridge was blowing up and draw a glowing blue field around herself, like a bubble of air kind of but not an actual bubble, if that makes sense.

Similarly I think they could have salvaged the chase if they just had the scene take place where there was a plausible reason they couldn't jump into hyperspace, like if they went into a nebula or asteroid field.

The hyperspace ram is just game-breaking though. I admit the shot of the dreadnought breaking up was gorgeous, but I just can't write this off. It's like the endless arguments people would get into about The Walking Dead. OH, IN A SHOW ABOUT ANIMATED CORPSES STALKING PEOPLE YOU CAN'T SUSPEND YOUR DISBELIEF? No, I can't. Not when you establish rules. I can deal with fantasy elements, but I struggle with inconsistency. Imagine if next season in Game of Thrones, they had cars, with no explanation of where they came from, or why they didn't have them before. In summary, MY IMMERSION!!!!

 

[maxxyz]

It's like the endless arguments people would get into about The Walking Dead. OH, IN A SHOW ABOUT ANIMATED CORPSES STALKING PEOPLE YOU CAN'T SUSPEND YOUR DISBELIEF? No, I can't. Not when you establish rules. I can deal with fantasy elements, but I struggle with inconsistency. !!!

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, etc. !

So - what are the rules of hyperspace jumps?

 

[Trueblue25]

Lol i loved Revenge of the Sith minus the darth vader scene

 

[Day2]

This movie addresses two of the biggest complaints about Force Awakens (too much like New Hope, not enough battle scenes in space), yet people are still complaining.

 

[Alsacs]

This movie addresses two of the biggest complaints about Force Awakens (too much like New Hope, not enough battle scenes in space), yet people are still complaining.

The plot was not worthy of a Star Wars movie.
The first order chasing the Resistance.
And Rey-Luke were the storylines.
Horrible for a 2.5 hour movie.
Rose and Finn’s side adventure was a waste of time.
I liked Holdo but her sacrifice basically wasted a new character.
The Leia space scene was just absurd.
The movie wasn’t good it was okay.

 

[Trueblue25]

The plot was not worthy of a Star Wars movie.
The first order chasing the Resistance.
And Rey-Luke were the storylines.
Horrible for a 2.5 hour movie.
Rose and Finn’s side adventure was a waste of time.
I liked Holdo but her sacrifice basically wasted a new character.
The Leia space scene was just absurd.
The movie wasn’t good it was okay.

It sucked. Someones gotta say it

 

[Day2]

The plot was not worthy of a Star Wars movie.
The first order chasing the Resistance.
And Rey-Luke were the storylines.
Horrible for a 2.5 hour movie.
Rose and Finn’s side adventure was a waste of time.
I liked Holdo but her sacrifice basically wasted a new character.
The Leia space scene was just absurd.
The movie wasn’t good it was okay.

Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.

 

[Day2]

It sucked. Someones gotta say it

If you can’t bring yourself to hate the guy who killed Han Solo, I don’t know what to tell you.