mom's decision...

[baggerbob]

If everyone knows this, apologies.

Two reasons we haven't won much and been the prominent team we were when Ben was coaching ahs been coaching turnover and recruiting. One of the seminal moments in Syracuse recruiting occurred back in 1999.

Donovan McNabb was on a recruiting trip with his father to Florida. There he met Bobby Bowden who asked if he was the next Charlie Ward.

“In the immediacy of the moment, McNabb seriously considered Florida State, but Tallahassee was just too far away from Chicago. Instead he choose to play both football and, for a time, basketball at Syracuse.

Ironically, “distance” would also come into play a few years later when McNabb himself was a recruiter at Syracuse and hosting Vick, who Syracuse hoped would be his heir-apparent at quarterback.

Like McNabb’s run-in with Ward, Vick grew up idolizing McNabb, and like Bowden in Tallahassee, the Syracuse coaching staff made no secret about wanting him. Scouts had Ronald Curry as the top player in Virginia that year. Syracuse’s coaching staff thought otherwise.

“Our coordinator told me personally, ‘He’s the best quarterback in Virginia,” McNabb explained. “This is the guy. We’ve got to have him. I’m like, ‘All right coach, I’ve got this.’”

For most of the weekend, McNabb did have it. Right before Vick was set to head home, he was ready to commit to the Orange.

McNabb just had to convince one more person.

“He’s like ‘Man, I want to come here,” McNabb said, describing a starry-eyed Vick. “But you’ve got to talk to my mom.’”

No problem, right?

“I get on the phone with his mom,” McNabb said. “She says, ‘You know, he talks about you all the time. I’m glad you guys got together. I really want him to make the best decision.’”

The problem: She didn’t make it clear whose decision it ultimately was.

“I really want him to stay in Virginia,” Vick’s mother, Brenda, said.

Unperturbed, McNabb went into sales mode.

“If he comes here, he’ll get a great education, we’ll win and it’s not far from you guys,” McNabb told her. “We’re like a family.”

Vick’s mother didn’t budge.

“We’ll see,” she told McNabb. “But I really want him to stay in Virginia.”

And it was at that point McNabb realized sometimes mama really does know best — even if her son hoped for something different.

“He was right next to me,” McNabb said of an eager Vick. “He’s asking me, ‘What’s she saying? What’s she saying?’”

She was saying her boy was staying close to home, a decision that obviously worked out fine for Vick. He went to Virginia Tech, where the school went 22-2 in his two years as a starter, and played for the 1999 BCS title.

But what if McNabb could have convinced Vick’s mother to let him play at Syracuse? Or what if Bobby Bowden had done the same with McNabb a few years earlier?

Those stand among the fascinating “what if” scenarios from Signing Days past.”

Aaron Torres is a show writer for Fox Sports Live and a contributor to FoxSports.com. Follow him on Twitter @Aaron_Torres or e-mail at ATorres00@gmail.com.

//

We were spoiled with a succession of quarterbacks in Don McPherson, Marvin Graves and McNabb. When McNabb left, and we didn’t bring in anyone who dazzled like McNabb, who created a vibrancy around town that elicited hope against even the strongest of opponents.

A very critical point in Syracuse Football History. Mom made the decision and SU FB was never quite the same.

Now we are getting to the point where recruits are looking at us differently without all the brilliant coaching turnover, a great coach in Dino Babers changing things in a positive way and a decision “finally” coming this summer about the future of the DOME, turning it into a great facility.

I wonder who Vick could have recruited, and on and on?

And if his Mother had sent him to Syracuse, he would have gotten away from his home boys, and probably not lost the time he did for the dog ring. So Mother in this case was wrong, she didn't do the right thing for her son.

 

[Chip]

That play you described, the BC end zone interception, and the Michigan 30 yards backwards safety...I never came to a clear conclusion on which one was the worst play of the 3.

I'd need Millhouse's help on this but there was a play against Pitt where he passed it, was deflected back to him, he caught it, ran with it, fumbled it. I know that was on his Top 5 list.

I remember being in the end zone of that BC game in Chestnut Hill, it was like it all happened in slow motion. We were all screaming NOOOO as he looked like he was going to make that pass.

But credit where it's due, he just needed time, should never have had to play that early. By his 5th year, he was a much better QB than the other years, on a team with the worst pass defense in FBS. Also, he married well.

 

[Chip]

Could not agree less.

The loss of Vick was the eventual death knell of the modern SU Football Program.

We have never fully recovered from his decision.

If he had been the QB in 1999, we would have won 10-11 games and the program would have prospered into the future.

With Vick, 1999 and 2000 would have made 1998 look boring.

And you'd like me better.

 

[SWC75]

I would love to have gotten Vick, (agree with the point about Tommy Kane and Will Allen), but there was more wrong with the program than not getting Vick.

In the McNabb years we went 35-14 overall and 23-5 in the conference. Our highest ranking in either poll in each year was 16/19/20/24. We split four games with Virginia Tech and were out-scored 90-109. Virginia Tech was 36-12 and 22-6 in the conference. Their highest rankings were 9/13/UR/18.

In the Vick years we went 13-10 and 7-7 in the conference. We were unranked both years. We were 0-2 against Virginia Tech and got out-scored 14-84. Virginia Tech was 22-2 and 13-1 in the conference. They were ranked #2 and #6. Their only losses were to a 12-0 Florida State team that won the national championship, (over Virginia Tech), and a 11-1 Miami team that should have played for it.

When we had McNabb and they didn't have Vick, they were still fully comparable with us, maybe a bit better. When they had Vick and we didn't have McNabb, they were far better than we were.

Did they have more overall talent than we did? Hard to tell but we put 30 players into the NFL from those rosters:
Syracuse Players/Alumni | Pro-Football-Reference.com
(click on the space above the years and look for players whose career began from 1996 to 2003- the later would have been freshmen in 2000)
They put 31 guys into the NFL over the same period:
Virginia Tech Players/Alumni | Pro-Football-Reference.com

 

[BillSU]

Could not agree less.

The loss of Vick was the eventual death knell of the modern SU Football Program.

We have never fully recovered from his decision.

If he had been the QB in 1999, we would have won 10-11 games and the program would have prospered into the future.

Nice summary which is the POINT of my post.

 

[BillSU]

I just can't put Ray Rice into the same category as Mike Vick.

Because Vick chose Va Tech, our 1999 team - a really good team - had to go with a gutty, smart but physically overmatched QB - Nunes - and a QB who seemed to have some tools but who was not at all effective - Williams.

However you might describe Nunes and Williams, that 1999 team suffered greatly because of our QB play.

Vick would have made that team a very good if not great team.

By the time Ray Rice was thinking of attending Syracuse University, the damage to the Program had already been done - it took years before we had a decent QB running the offense - Ryan Nassib.

Yup!

 

[OrangePA]

I would love to have gotten Vick, (agree with the point about Tommy Kane and Will Allen), but there was more wrong with the program than not getting Vick.

In the McNabb years we went 35-14 overall and 23-5 in the conference. Our highest ranking in either poll in each year was 16/19/20/24. We split four games with Virginia Tech and were out-scored 90-109. Virginia Tech was 36-12 and 22-6 in the conference. Their highest rankings were 9/13/UR/18.

In the Vick years we went 13-10 and 7-7 in the conference. We were unranked both years. We were 0-2 against Virginia Tech and got out-scored 14-84. Virginia Tech was 22-2 and 13-1 in the conference. They were ranked #2 and #6. Their only losses were to a 12-0 Florida State team that won the national championship, (over Virginia Tech), and a 11-1 Miami team that should have played for it.

When we had McNabb and they didn't have Vick, they were still fully comparable with us, maybe a bit better. When they had Vick and we didn't have McNabb, they were far better than we were.

Did they have more overall talent than we did? Hard to tell but we put 30 players into the NFL from those rosters:
Syracuse Players/Alumni | Pro-Football-Reference.com
(click on the space above the years and look for players whose career began from 1996 to 2003- the later would have been freshmen in 2000)
They put 31 guys into the NFL over the same period:
Virginia Tech Players/Alumni | Pro-Football-Reference.com

I'll take those McNabb teams in a heartbeat.

There was nothing wrong with them - at all.

We went to the Fiesta Bowl, the Orange Bowl, the Gator Bowl and the Liberty Bowl.

The complaining back then - and now - sorry - was/is utter nonsense.

Amazed you haven't figured that out by now.

 

[sufandu]

Interesting story. I had heard before that mom was a huge McNabb fan and wanted him at SU, whereas it was MV that decided to stay close to home.

 

[Bayside44]

In retrospect I'm glad that we didn't get him.

It probably would have been a temporary boost at best...and the baggage wouldn't have been worth it imo.

Losing him helped take the program massively down.

 

[bevosu]

I'm getting clobbered for my opinion that I'm glad that we didn't get him.

I know that we would have won more games, and he was an exciting and gifted college player, but I doubt that it would have permanently reversed the eventual decline.

And..he got far more negative publicity than Harrison, Kane, or Will Allen. Deserved or not.

Plus my dog (avatar) would disown me if I thought otherwise.

It's an opinion. People have the right to disagree.

 

[sufandu]

I'm getting clobbered for my opinion that I'm glad that we didn't get him.

I know that we would have won more games, and he was an exciting and gifted college player, but I doubt that it would have permanently reversed the eventual decline.

And..he got far more negative publicity than Harrison, Kane, or Will Allen. Deserved or not.

Plus my dog (avatar) would disown me if I thought otherwise.

It's an opinion. People have the right to disagree.

I like to think that if he was away from his boys back home, he may have never been involved in all of that. Of course, we'll never know.

 

[SWC75]

I'll take those McNabb teams in a heartbeat.

There was nothing wrong with them - at all.

We went to the Fiesta Bowl, the Orange Bowl, the Gator Bowl and the Liberty Bowl.

The complaining back then - and now - sorry - was/is utter nonsense.

Amazed you haven't figured that out by now.

You didn't respond to anything I specifically said, just a statement of general satisfaction. 35-14 looks swell now. But we missed a chance at something much better, as demonstrated by what the Hokies accomplished with Vick. We're now trying to climb the mountain to get back to where we were so we can have another chance at it.

 

[orangenauburn]

You didn't respond to anything I specifically said, just a statement of general satisfaction. 35-14 looks swell now. But we missed a chance at something much better, as demonstrated by what the Hokies accomplished with Vick. We're now trying to climb the mountain to get back to where we were so we can have another chance at it.

I'd say we underachieved by 1-2 games each year he was here. Probably should have been closer to 38-11, 39-10 over that period of time.

'95 loss to ECU sucked but they also finished 9-3 that year

'96 losses to UNC and Minnesota to me were tough to swallow. Came out flat at home vs UNC and that Minny game, ugh. Played Miami real tough and came up short.

'97 NCST and Oklahoma ... Enough said. Also laid an egg vs Michael Bishop and KState in bowl game

'98 The Tennessee game. Lost a tough night game in Morgantown, laid an egg at NCST, blown out in bowl by Florida

Realistically should have had another 5-6 wins

 

[OrangeFoo]

I'd say we underachieved by 1-2 games each year he was here. Probably should have been closer to 38-11, 39-10 over that period of time.

'95 loss to ECU sucked but they also finished 9-3 that year

'96 losses to UNC and Minnesota to me were tough to swallow. Came out flat at home vs UNC and that Minny game, ugh. Played Miami real tough and came up short.

'97 NCST and Oklahoma ... Enough said. Also laid an egg vs Michael Bishop and KState in bowl game

'98 The Tennessee game. Lost a tough night game in Morgantown, laid an egg at NCST, blown out in bowl by Florida

Realistically should have had another 5-6 wins

100% agree with this... I feel like the term "W.T." loss was created around this time because of how often we lost to teams we had no business losing to. For some reason when we had McNabb, Coach P could never put together a D that could stop any of the big boys. I honestly think McNabb was a bandaid on the decline of SU football... right after he left our roster was exposed for the lack of talent that it had and to prove it we began a series of national TV massacres culminating in Coach P's last season when we opened up against Purdue with a freshman named Joe Fields at QB who would end up as a safety by the time his career was over. I remember on multiple occasion Herbstreit openly laughing at us during the game. I still cringe every time we have a national TV game because I am scarred from the Coach P era.

Sure Vick would have been a bandaid for another couple of years but I think Coach P's ability to recruit and assemble talent that could compete for titles was gone... it didn't help that we were stating to lost NJ to Rutgers by then. The other problem is that spread offenses started to become more popular in college and the big boys started chasing the same talent we used to rely on. In todays world there is no way we would have ever gotten McNabb... he would be at OSU.

In hindsight I don't think there was anything we could have done to stop the collapse... the facilities arms race and the hyper inflation of coaching salaries had begun and we were sitting on the sidelines with facilities that were worse than those of most high school programs in one of the most infertile recruiting grounds in the country.

Anyone else amused you can't actually type the first letters of What The FCUK or What The ?

 

[OrangePA]

You didn't respond to anything I specifically said, just a statement of general satisfaction. 35-14 looks swell now. But we missed a chance at something much better, as demonstrated by what the Hokies accomplished with Vick. We're now trying to climb the mountain to get back to where we were so we can have another chance at it.

I believe I responded quite directly to you.

I didn't go back and evaluate the "NFL participation" analysis because I don't believe that that is necessarily an accurate measure of the strength of a college football team.

The 2005 Orange team had a number of guys who played in the NFL - including Ryan LaCasse, Joe Fields, Dowayne Davis, and Alex Shor - among others. But they weren't dominant college players in any sense of the word, and they accumulated a total of one win that season.

So, the simple process of going to a media guide and conducting a retroactive accounting of the number of NFL players on a college roster is pretty much a pointless exercise in this instance.

Many, including you, have overestimated the talent level of the teams we had back then. We had a few great players during the P years - Harrison, McNabb, Bulluck, Freeney and Darius - and a number of very good college players. And we had a truly great coaching staff that helped those teams compete at high levels with meticulous preparation.

Despite what you have believed over the years, we never had national championship talent - not even close. For example, we never had a truly dominant offensive lineman. John Flannery was about the best we ever produced. He was at best a decent pro.

It was our unique OL technique that allowed us to accomplish what we were able to accomplish. Kevin Sampson made it to the NFL based upon his technique. He had minimal physical ability. He played in the League for three years - he did fine - better than anybody could have expected.

So the technique that we utilized back then was great, but in the end you need dominant talent - and a great deal of depth - to win at the NC level. We were never at that level.

Our success during the McNabb years was commensurate with our overall talent level. And, again, it was a wonderful time, with trips to the Fiesta, Orange, Gator and Liberty Bowls. Those years were lots of fun.

As far a Vick is concerned, I don't think there is much debate that he was a more dominant college player than McNabb. And, I don't think it's even close.

He literally won games by himself back then - to a greater extent than did Donovan.

McNabb was a great college player, but Vick was one of the all-time greatest college players.

The Orange had the Hokies beat in 2000, until Mike outran the entire SU defense 70 yards to win the game.

Many believe that he was the best dual purpose college QB in history.

If you are suggesting that Frank Beamer was a better coach than Pasqualoni, I guess we can argue about that.

If I recall correctly, Pasqualoni had .500 record against Beamer during the latter's glory years.

His Orange team beat Va Tech at Blacksburg in 2001 and did it again during that tough 2002 season when the Hokies were highly ranked.

So, yes I read your post and I believe I answered it.

 

[kirbivore]

I believe I responded quite directly to you.

I didn't go back and evaluate the "NFL participation" analysis because I don't believe that that is necessarily an accurate measure of the strength of a college football team.

The 2005 Orange team had a number of guys who played in the NFL - including Ryan LaCasse, Joe Fields, Dowayne Davis, and Alex Shor - among others. But they weren't dominant college players in any sense of the word, and they accumulated a total of one win that season.

You include players that were on a scout team or only played in the preseason as "NFL" players to boost your pro P agenda. 53 man roster or it doesn't count. Of the players you listed only LaCasse is an actual NFL alum.

 

[OrangePA]

I'd say we underachieved by 1-2 games each year he was here. Probably should have been closer to 38-11, 39-10 over that period of time.

'95 loss to ECU sucked but they also finished 9-3 that year

'96 losses to UNC and Minnesota to me were tough to swallow. Came out flat at home vs UNC and that Minny game, ugh. Played Miami real tough and came up short.

'97 NCST and Oklahoma ... Enough said. Also laid an egg vs Michael Bishop and KState in bowl game

'98 The Tennessee game. Lost a tough night game in Morgantown, laid an egg at NCST, blown out in bowl by Florida

Realistically should have had another 5-6 wins

Losing games to K-State and Tennessee and even West Virginia are not examples of "laying an egg" or "underachieving."

And losing games that we were picked to win is something that happens to every college program.

Our achievements during those years were commensurate to our overall talent level.

We did just fine and it was a lot of fun.

We can only hope that the Program gets back to that level in the next few years.

 

[OttoMets]

Could not agree less.

The loss of Vick was the eventual death knell of the modern SU Football Program.

We have never fully recovered from his decision.

If he had been the QB in 1999, we would have won 10-11 games and the program would have prospered into the future.

Agree generally.

But Vick would've been good for 10 or 11 wins in 1999 after McNabb/Johnson/Konrad/healthy Spotwood could only muster 8 or 9 in the previous couple seasons? That's bold.

 

[sufandu]

Losing games to K-State and Tennessee and even West Virginia are not examples of "laying an egg" or "underachieving."

And losing games that we were picked to win is something that happens to every college program.

Our achievements during those years were commensurate to our overall talent level.

We did just fine and it was a lot of fun.

We can only hope that the Program gets back to that level in the next few years.

Losing games we are supposed to win does happen to every program, but it happened every year during that era. We should have had at least one year we didn't have a stupid loss and/or had an unexpected upset. The '97 team should have been a 10 win team. Losing to both NC State (6-5) and Oklahoma (4-8), neither of which beat another ranked team all year, was inexcusable. We got lucky the last couple years Miami was on probation or our records likely would have been worse.

If our records during that era reflected our talent, does that mean the 91' and '92 teams overachieved or were we unable to replace the talent Mac left P?

 

[SWC75]

I believe I responded quite directly to you.

I didn't go back and evaluate the "NFL participation" analysis because I don't believe that that is necessarily an accurate measure of the strength of a college football team.

The 2005 Orange team had a number of guys who played in the NFL - including Ryan LaCasse, Joe Fields, Dowayne Davis, and Alex Shor - among others. But they weren't dominant college players in any sense of the word, and they accumulated a total of one win that season.

So, the simple process of going to a media guide and conducting a retroactive accounting of the number of NFL players on a college roster is pretty much a pointless exercise in this instance.

Many, including you, have overestimated the talent level of the teams we had back then. We had a few great players during the P years - Harrison, McNabb, Bulluck, Freeney and Darius - and a number of very good college players. And we had a truly great coaching staff that helped those teams compete at high levels with meticulous preparation.

Despite what you have believed over the years, we never had national championship talent - not even close. For example, we never had a truly dominant offensive lineman. John Flannery was about the best we ever produced. He was at best a decent pro.

It was our unique OL technique that allowed us to accomplish what we were able to accomplish. Kevin Sampson made it to the NFL based upon his technique. He had minimal physical ability. He played in the League for three years - he did fine - better than anybody could have expected.

So the technique that we utilized back then was great, but in the end you need dominant talent - and a great deal of depth - to win at the NC level. We were never at that level.

Our success during the McNabb years was commensurate with our overall talent level. And, again, it was a wonderful time, with trips to the Fiesta, Orange, Gator and Liberty Bowls. Those years were lots of fun.

As far a Vick is concerned, I don't think there is much debate that he was a more dominant college player than McNabb. And, I don't think it's even close.

He literally won games by himself back then - to a greater extent than did Donovan.

McNabb was a great college player, but Vick was one of the all-time greatest college players.

The Orange had the Hokies beat in 2000, until Mike outran the entire SU defense 70 yards to win the game.

Many believe that he was the best dual purpose college QB in history.

If you are suggesting that Frank Beamer was a better coach than Pasqualoni, I guess we can argue about that.

If I recall correctly, Pasqualoni had .500 record against Beamer during the latter's glory years.

His Orange team beat Va Tech at Blacksburg in 2001 and did it again during that tough 2002 season when the Hokies were highly ranked.

So, yes I read your post and I believe I answered it.

You’ve said I tend to inflate the reputations of players to criticize the coaches. I think you devalue the players in order to protect the coaches from criticism.

My numbers on pro players were not from a media guide. It was from the links I provided in my first post:
Syracuse Players/Alumni | Pro-Football-Reference.com
Virginia Tech Players/Alumni | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Let’s go over these players and the careers they had:

SYRACUSE (numbers include playoffs. Yards are all-purpose)

Terry Richardson (RB) played 1 game for the 1996 Steelers. Gained 17 yards, didn’t score.

Emile Palmer (DT) played 1 game for the 1996 Saints.

Marvin Harrison (WR) played 206 (including post season) games for the Colts. Gained 15,670 yards and scored 130 touchdowns. Made the pro bowl 8 times. Was first team All-Pro 3 times and second team 6 times. Elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2016.

Antonio Anderson (DL) played 21 games for the Dallas Cowboys 1997-98. Was named to the NFL all-rookie team in 1996. A knee injury curtailed his career. . Had 21 solo and 7 assisted tackles with 2 sacks.

Kevin Abrams (DB) played 25 games for the Detroit Lions. He had 1 interception, 2 forced fumbles and a recovered fumble. He had 48 return yards but didn’t score. Had 64 solo and 15 assisted tackles with 5 sacks.

Nate Hemsley (LB) played 20 games for the Cowboys and Panthers. He had 20 solo and 3 assisted tackles.

Olindo Mare (PK/P) Played 235 games for the Dolphins, Saints, Seahawks, Panthers and Bears. He was All-Pro and made the pro bowl in 1999. He scored 1,605 points and punted 12 times for a 37.5 average. He also made 3 tackles and recovered a fumble.

Antwaune Ponds (LB) played 3 games for the Redskins.

Dana Cottrell (LB) played 2 games for the Patriots.

Kaseem Sinceno (TE) played 21 games for the Eagles and Bears. He gained 260 yards and scored 1 touchdown.

Roland Williams (TE) played 94 games and gained 1,026 yards, scoring 13 TDs. He also made 4 solo tackles and recovered 3 fumbles, presumably on special teams.

Tebucky Jones (DB) played 113 games for the Patriots, Saints and Dolphins. He had 7 interceptions and force 5 and recovered 4 fumbles. He had 229 return yards, (including 5 kickoff returns) and 1TD. He made 307 solo and 105 assisted tackles, including 4.5 sacks.

Donovin Darius (DB) played 122 games for the Jaguars and Dolphins. He had 15 interceptions 7 forced fumbles and 8 fumble recoveries. He had 289 return yards and 1 TD. He made 483 solo tackles and 140 assists with 2.0 sacks.

Ernie Brown (DE) played 3 games for the Steelers.

Rob Konrad (RB) played 86 games for the Dolphins. He gained 999 yards and scored 7TDs.

Kevin Johnson (WR) played 102 games for the Browns, Jaguars, Colts and Lions. He gained 5,069 yards and scored 25 touchdowns, (he threw a pass for another).

Donovan McNabb (QB) played 183 games for the Eagles, Redskins and Vikings. He gained or threw for 44,480 yards. He scored 33TDs and passed for 258TDs. He went to 6 pro Bowls.

Keith Bulluck (LB) played 177 games for the Titans. He intercepted 21 passes, forced 15 fumbles and recovered 13 of them. He had 360 return yards and scored 6TDs. He had 791 tackles and 296 assists with 18 sacks. He was All-pro three times and played on one Pro Bowl.

Eric Downing (DT) played 45 games for the Chiefs and the Chargers. He made 31 solo and 13 assisted tackles with a 2 sacks.

Morlon Greenwood (LB) played 125 games for the Dolphins and Texans. He intercepted 2 passes and forced 3 fumbles, recovering 5 of them. He had 18 return yards but no scores. He made 468 solo tackles with 214 assists and 7 sacks.

Will Allen (DB) played 143 games for the Giants, Dolphins and Patriots. He intercepted 15 passes, forced 7 fumbles and recovered 6. He had 193 return yards and scored 1TD. He had 460 solo tackles and 72 assists with 5 sacks.

J. R. Johnson (LB) played 5 games for the Saints and Colts. He had 3 solo tackles and 1 assist.

James Mungro (RB) played 43 games for the Colts. He gained 797 yards and scored 13TDs

Quentin Harris (DB) played 60 games for the Cardinals and Broncos. He intercepted 1 pass and forced 1 fumble, recovering 3 of them. He had -1 yard in returns and didn’t score. He had 75 solo and 14 assisted tackles with 1 sack.

Dee Brown (RB) played 43 games for the Panthers, Steelers, Browns and Chiefs. He produced 1,015 yards and 6TDs. He also recovered 3 fumbles, made 15 solo tackles and 7 assists, presumably on special teams.

Dwight Freeney (DE) has played 240 games for the Colts, Cardinals and Falcons. He’s had no interceptions but has forced 47 fumbles and recovered 24 of them. He has 23 return yards and 1TD. He’s made 295 solo tackles and 55 assists. He’s had 136.5 sacks. He’s been to 7 pro bowls and been all-pro 3 times and second team once.

Chris Davis (RB) played in 1 game for the Seahawks.

Clifton Smith (RB) played 2 games for the Redskins and Browns.

David Tyree (WR) played in 91 games for the Giants and Ravens. He gained 688 yards and scored 5 TDs. He also has 67 solo tackles and 10 assists on special teams.


That’s actually 29 players, (not 30 as in my original count) who played 2,213 games. They gained 71.180 yards and scored or passed for 501 touchdowns. With Mare’s placekicking, that’s 4,611 points. They made 3,108 solo tackles and 952 assists with 183 sacks. They’ve intercepted 62 passes, forced 87 fumbles and recovered 64 of them. They have 10 All-Pro selections and 23 pro bowl appearances. Harrison is in the Hall of Fame. Freeney surely will be. McNabb could make it and maybe even Darius or Bulluck. (Sources: Wikipedia and Pro Football Reference.com)

Note that Ryan LaCasse, Joe Fields, Dowyane Davis and Alex Shor are not in this group.


VIRGINIA TECH

Bryan Still (WR) played 52 games for the Chargers and Falcons. He gained 1,219 yards and scored 3 TDs.

Jay Hagood (OT) played 2 games for the Jets.

Torrian Gray (DB) played 25 games for the Vikings. He made 1 interception and recovered 1 fumble. He had 25 return yards and didn’t score. He had 35 solo and 8 unassisted tackles with 1 sack.

Jim Druckenmiller (QB) played 6 games for the 49ers. He produced 229 yards and 1TD.

Bill Conaty ( C) played 74 games for the Bills and Vikings.

Cornell Brown (LB) played 109 games for the Ravens. He intercepted 1 pass and forced 3 fumbles. He had 21 return yards but didn’t score. He had 118 solo tackles, 44 assists and 7 sacks.

Ken Oxendine (RB) played 23 games for the Falcons and gained 685 yards, scoring 2TDs.

Antonio Banks (DB) played 30 games for the Vikings. He recovered 2 fumbles. He had no return yards or scores. He had 18 solo tackles and 1 assists with no sacks.

Waverly Jackson (OG-T) played 68 games for the Colts.

Todd Washington (OC-G) played 97 games for the Buccaneers and Texans. He actually had 3 kick returns for 49 yards.

Gennaro DiNapoli (OC-G) played 39 games for the Raiders, Titans and Cowboys. He had a fumble recovery for -3 yards.

Keion Carpenter (DB) played 86 games for the Bills and Falcons. He had 16 interceptions, forced 2 fumbles and recovered 2. He had 173 return yards and 1 TD. He had 166 solo and 32 assisted tackles with no sacks.

Pierson Prioleau (DB) played 167 games for the 49ers, Bills, Redskins, Jaguars and Saints. He had 1 interception, 7 forced fumbles and 5 recoveries. He had 29 return yards and no scores. He had 348 solo tackles 98 assists and 6 sacks.

Corey Moore (LB) played 10 games for the Bills recovered 1 fumble with no return yards or scores. He had 8 solo tackles 4 assists and 1 sack.

Michael Hawkes (LB) played 3 games for the Panthers. He made 1 solo tackle and recovered 1 fumble but had no other stats.

Shyrone Stith (RB) played 15 games for the Jaguars and Colts. He produced 840 yards and 1TD.

Ike Charlton (DB) played 53 games for the Seahawks, Jaguars and Giants. He had 2 interceptions, 4 forced bumbles but no recoveries. He also returned 10 kickoffs and had a total of 279 return yards and 1 TD. He had 72 solo tackle 8 assists and 2 sacks.

John Engleberger (DE) played 141 games for the 49ers and Broncos. He had no interceptions but forced 14 fumbles and recovered 4 of them. He returned a couple of kickoffs (as an up-man) and 14 return yards. He had 201 solo tackles, 61 assists and 21.5 sacks.

Dave Kadela (OT) played 2 games with the Falcons and Panthers.

Cory Bird (DB) played 45 games for the Colts. He had no interceptions and forced one fumble. He had 88 solo and 24 assisted tackles with a half of a sack.

Matt Lehr (C-G) played 98 games for the Cowboys, Falcons, Buccaneers and Saints. He did have one kickoff return for 9 yards.

Nick Sorensen (DB) played 134 games for the Cardinals, Jaguars and Browns. He had no interceptions, forced 2 fumbles and recovered 2. He had 4 return yards and no scores. He had 108 solo and 21 assisted tackles with ½ a sack.

Michael Vick (QB) played 149 games for the Falcons, Eagles, Jets and Steelers and produced 29,821 yards and 175TDs. He made 4 pro bowls.

Shayne Graham (PK) played 175 games for the Bills, Panthers, Bengals, Patriots, Giants, Dolphins, Ravens, Texans, Saints and Falcons. He produced 1,310 points and was All-Pro and in the Pro Bowl once each.

David Pugh (DT) played 4 games for the Colts.

Ben Taylor (LB) played 49 games for the Browns and the Packers. He had 1 interception with no return. He had 157 solo tackles and 61 assists but no sacks.

Kevin McCadam (DB) played 71 games for the Falcons and Panthers. He recovered 1 fumble with no return. He had 61 solo tackles, 10 assists and 1 sack.

Andre’ Davis (WR) played 107 games for the Browns, Patriots, Bills and Texans. He produced 7,472 yards and 22 touchdowns , (mostly as a kick returner).

Chad Beasley (OT) played 8 games for the Browns.

Lee Suggs (RB) played in 29 games for the Browns and the Dolphins. He produced 1,609 yards and 5TDs

Ronyell Whitaker (DB) played in 31 games for the Buccaneers and Vikings. He had no interceptions and 1 fumble recovery with no return or score. He had 36 solo and 7 assisted tackles with no sacks.


That is 31 players as I initially reported. They played 1,902 games in the NFL. They produced 42,429 yards and 209TDs. With Graham’s placekicking that’s 2,564 points. They intercepted 21 passes, forced 35 fumbles and recovered 19 of them. They made 1,417 solo tackles and 379 assisted tackles with 40.5 sacks. Vick and Graham are the only pro bowlers (5 times) and Graham was the only all-pro. They have no Hall of Famers and probably won’t.


I submit that the number of future NFL players on a roster is relevant to evaluating the talent on the team and by that and their accomplishments, it’s logical to conclude that Syracuse had more talent than Virginia Tech did in 1995-2000. And yet, the Hokies had more success over that period, equaling us when we had McNabb and greatly exceeding us when they had Vick. That we didn’t have a single season in the 4 year McNabb Era nearly as successful as either year Tech had in the Vick Era is not acceptable.


I agree we didn’t produce many offensive linemen in this period. The Tech pros include 8 of them. Our have none. We had a great offensive line when the Cherry bowl group dominated in the late 80’s they were the big reason we went form 5-6 to 11-0 in 1987. Doug Marrone gave us some good lines in his tenure. G-Rob’s lines were hopeless. The Paqualoni lines were consistently mediocre, which is why, despite our emphasis on the running game, we were never among the nation’s top running offenses and had trouble sustain drives. We could not dominate the line of scrimmage. Our best players were quarterback scrambles on this down. This certainly impacted our record during those years but is not to Pasqualoni’s credit.


Has to McNabb vs. Vick as collegians, this comparison would not have impacted the four years we had McNabb and tech had the likes of Jim Druckenmiller yet they had a comparable record. Similarly, it doesn’t impact the Vick Era, when Tech was far better than we were. McNabb clearly had the better NFL career. In college, McNabb completed 58.9% of his passes for 8,389 yards 77TDs and 26 interceptions. He ran for 1,561 yards at 4.7 a crack and scored 19TDs. He played 45 games, (these stats don’t’ appear to include bowl games):
Donovan McNabb College Stats | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Vick played 22 games and completed 56.0% of his passes for 3,299 yards for 21 TDs and 11 picks. He ran for 1,299 yards at 5.5 per carry and 17 scores.
Michael Vick College Stats | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

I’ll take Donovan, thank you.

 

[McNabb2Brominski]

Could not agree less.

The loss of Vick was the eventual death knell of the modern SU Football Program.

We have never fully recovered from his decision.

If he had been the QB in 1999, we would have won 10-11 games and the program would have prospered into the future.

Not going to the ACC initially with UM and VT, followed by the subsequent hire of Grob is what did this football program in.

 

[Pyle]

Not going to the ACC initially with UM and VT, followed by the subsequent hire of Grob is what did this football program in.

VT stealing our initial spot in the ACC, followed by...

I fixed it for you.