other than Battle...

[Fly Rodder]

Last season's defense was the worst in the history of Syracuse basketball, so we can only get better.

This is a tremendous fallacy.

 

[Cusefan0307]

So we're losing a lot from a bad team. That's usually a good thing. If you return a lot from a bad team, that's a bad thing.

Addition by subtraction, brother. White could score, couldn't play D. Gillon had 3 or 4 good-ish games, hurt us in practically all others. Coleman had zero knees. Lydon was good on both ends of the court but far from irreplaceable. Robey checked out early in the season.

I don't see any one of those guys and think to myself, "oh darn, how are we going to replace all of that awesome production." Will we shoot as well as we did last season? No. Will we be as efficient on offense as last season? Highly unlikely. Will our defense be much much better than last season? Probably. Last season's defense was the worst in the history of Syracuse basketball, so we can only get better.

Well we are losing a lot of 3 point shooting and our best rebounders. I don't believe we have replacements for either of that. So yeah the defense could get better but we could be worse cause we might not be able to score and the rebounding could be even worse.

 

[Brooky03]

Well we are losing a lot of 3 point shooting and our best rebounders. I don't believe we have replacements for either of that. So yeah the defense could get better but we could be worse cause we might not be able to score and the rebounding could be even worse.

Rebounding is easy to pick up. Lydon's rebounds per minute average was very pedestrian. Robey was a great rebounder and a good defender, but not other-worldly. White was an average rebounder. Rebounding won't be an issue.

Shooting will be worse. I don't think we'll have a problem at the guard positions. Battle is good from behind the arc, Howard is serviceable, Washington is advertised as a good shooter, and Ayala is good if he comes here. SF is an issue, but TT looks ready to make a CJ Fair-like improvement on his 3 point shooting to give us some firepower at PF. We won't shoot as well as last year or have as many deep threats on the court, for sure, but that's not a death sentence. College teams don't need 4 shooters on the court to perform well.

 

[Brooky03]

This is a tremendous fallacy.

Okay, maybe there was a team in the 40's who wasn't that good on D.

Is that better? Obvious hyperbole was meant to be obvious.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Okay, maybe there was a team in the 40's who wasn't that good on D.

Is that better? Obvious hyperbole was meant to be obvious.

It's the "can only get better" part. That's the fallacy.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Rebounding is easy to pick up. Lydon's rebounds per minute average was very pedestrian. Robey was a great rebounder and a good defender, but not other-worldly. White was an average rebounder. Rebounding won't be an issue.

Shooting will be worse. I don't think we'll have a problem at the guard positions. Battle is good from behind the arc, Howard is serviceable, Washington is advertised as a good shooter, and Ayala is good if he comes here. SF is an issue, but TT looks ready to make a CJ Fair-like improvement on his 3 point shooting to give us some firepower at PF. We won't shoot as well as last year or have as many deep threats on the court, for sure, but that's not a death sentence. College teams don't need 4 shooters on the court to perform well.

Different era. Need 3's. and Lydon was a better defensive rebounder than Robey percentage wise. The best guy we have had on the D boards since Rak. I worry about every position next year besides 2 guard. I know a lot of you don't want to hear it, but I think we are a 5 win ACC roster right now.

 

[Brooky03]

It's the "can only get better" part. That's the fallacy.

Well it can't get worse. A girls JV basketball team would have defended better than last season's team. They probably would have played more physically, too.

 

[Brooky03]

Different era. Need 3's..

That's not true. That's a misconception that keeps getting tossed around and now everybody is parroting it. You don't need to kill teams from deep to win basketball games in this era.

 

[Brooky03]

Different era. Need 3's. and Lydon was a better defensive rebounder than Robey percentage wise. The best guy we have had on the D boards since Rak. I worry about every position next year besides 2 guard. I know a lot of you don't want to hear it, but I think we are a 5 win ACC roster right now.

Robey's rebounds per 40 was higher than Lydon's and Lydon had the advantage of playing at Center. A defensive rebounding percentage below 20 is not as good as you're trying to make it sound.

The idea that anybody who thinks the team will be decent next year is a crackpot is going to get old quick, I can tell.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Outside of Georgia Tech every team in the conference shot at least 35% from three this year. Scoring and shooting percentages are up across the board. I don't see where the offensive firepower is going to come from.

 

[HOFCeluck]

A team that's going to depend on Frank Howard running point is not going to be good.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Robey's rebounds per 40 was higher than Lydon's and Lydon had the advantage of playing at Center. A defensive rebounding percentage below 20 is not as good as you're trying to make it sound.

The idea that anybody who thinks the team will be decent next year is a crackpot is going to get old quick, I can tell.

Agree to Disagree. I'm not trying to be a negative nancy here, just realistic. Maybe Lydon's rebounding numbers weren't great, but he's still the best defensive rebounder Syracuse has had outside of Rak since Rick Jackson has been here. There's a reason everyone's flipping out about the talent we have.

 

[Brooky03]

Agree to Disagree. I'm not trying to be a negative nancy here, just realistic. Maybe Lydon's rebounding numbers weren't great, but he's still the best defensive rebounder Syracuse has had outside of Rak since Rick Jackson has been here. There's a reason everyone's flipping out about the talent we have.

I'm being realistic, too. That's the kicker.

Let's say we don't have a rebounder as good as Lydon or Roberson. That would account for approximately 1.5 less rebounds per game for the team, if that. 1.5 rebounds per game is going to break the team's back?

 

[Fly Rodder]

I'm being realistic, too. That's the kicker.

If you say so then it must be true. Hallelujah.

 

[Brooky03]

If you say so then it must be true. Hallelujah.

Word

 

[RF2044]

So we're losing a lot from a bad team. That's usually a good thing. If you return a lot from a bad team, that's a bad thing.

Addition by subtraction, brother. White could score, couldn't play D. Gillon had 3 or 4 good-ish games, hurt us in practically all others. Coleman had zero knees. Lydon was good on both ends of the court but far from irreplaceable. Robey checked out early in the season.

I don't see any one of those guys and think to myself, "oh darn, how are we going to replace all of that awesome production." Will we shoot as well as we did last season? No. Will we be as efficient on offense as last season? Highly unlikely. Will our defense be much much better than last season? Probably. Last season's defense was the worst in the history of Syracuse basketball, so we can only get better.

There is very little in this post that is accurate. C'mon, Brook -- you're way better than this.

 

[Brooky03]

There is very little in this post that is accurate. C'mon, Brook -- you're way better than this.

Then explain it to me RF.

Tyler Lydon was not the Lord and Savior we all had hoped he would be. Maybe expectations were high, but he was nothing better than a little above average in ACC play and a lot of his weaknesses were exposed. If he's irreplaceable then we should end the basketball program.

Dajuan didn't play and Roberson was trash all season. A guy who couldn't play and a guy who occasionally caught the basketball and did nothing else shouldn't be hard to replace with a 4 star recruit.

Gillon had the NC State game and a couple others where he contributed meaningfully. He couldn't get his shot off most of the time and did very little on defense. Easily replaceable. At the very least, Howard won't be worse because he was barely worse last season even though he sucked.

White's shooting won't be replaced. He was an elite scorer most games. We'll miss him and the offense will average less points per game because of his departure. He got a little better on the defensive end towards the end of the season but he was still far from good and he couldn't rebound. Can't replace his offense, can replace every other aspect of his game.


What'd I miss?

 

[RF2044]

Then explain it to me RF.

Tyler Lydon was not the Lord and Savior we all had hoped he would be. Maybe expectations were high, but he was nothing better than a little above average in ACC play and a lot of his weaknesses were exposed. If he's irreplaceable then we should end the basketball program.

Dajuan didn't play and Roberson was trash all season. A guy who couldn't play and a guy who occasionally caught the basketball and did nothing else shouldn't be hard to replace with a 4 star recruit.

Gillon had the NC State game and a couple others where he contributed meaningfully. He couldn't get his shot off most of the time and did very little on defense. Easily replaceable. At the very least, Howard won't be worse because he was barely worse last season even though he sucked.

White's shooting won't be replaced. He was an elite scorer most games. We'll miss him and the offense will average less points per game because of his departure. He got a little better on the defensive end towards the end of the season but he was still far from good and he couldn't rebound. Can't replace his offense, can replace every other aspect of his game.


What'd I miss?

Apparently, the entire season if those are your player assessments. And while I fully understand how frustrating the season was, I think you're letting said frustration color your perspective on the players.

 

[Fly Rodder]

There is very little in this post that is accurate. C'mon, Brook -- you're way better than this.

He was accurate last year and I think he is being internally consistent:

The 2010 team would put 3 40% 3 point shooters on the court with Triche, Rautins, and Wes. Even Scoop was almost at 40%. We all know how good that team was.

Gillon, White, and Lydon could match that, with Battle possibly getting into that territory, too. If they all shoot that well, other teams should probably just kill themselves.

And they did all get around 40% (as a group they shot 39.3%). As it turns out, other teams did not just forfeit the game. Therefore, teams don't need three point shooting to win since Syracuse had three point shooting last year and were mediocre.

That's not true. That's a misconception that keeps getting tossed around and now everybody is parroting it. You don't need to kill teams from deep to win basketball games in this era.

So yeah, you don't need to kill it from three to win (a few) basketball games. However, the problem is that Syracuse still needs to score points. Obviously, Frank Howard is going to be feeding the post all season.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Apparently, the entire season if those are your player assessments. And while I fully understand how frustrating the season was, I think you're letting said frustration color your perspective on the players.

Well last season, he was talking up all those guys like they were all going to be superb. They weren't. Their fault, not his. This year, though, wow, these new players are just going to be the best.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Then explain it to me RF.

Tyler Lydon was not the Lord and Savior we all had hoped he would be. Maybe expectations were high, but he was nothing better than a little above average in ACC play and a lot of his weaknesses were exposed. If he's irreplaceable then we should end the basketball program.

Dajuan didn't play and Roberson was trash all season. A guy who couldn't play and a guy who occasionally caught the basketball and did nothing else shouldn't be hard to replace with a 4 star recruit.

Gillon had the NC State game and a couple others where he contributed meaningfully. He couldn't get his shot off most of the time and did very little on defense. Easily replaceable. At the very least, Howard won't be worse because he was barely worse last season even though he sucked.

White's shooting won't be replaced. He was an elite scorer most games. We'll miss him and the offense will average less points per game because of his departure. He got a little better on the defensive end towards the end of the season but he was still far from good and he couldn't rebound. Can't replace his offense, can replace every other aspect of his game.


What'd I miss?

Coleman and Robey aren't a big loss. We agree there.

Ok you are disappointed in Lydon/White's game and they didn't live up to your expectations?
By advanced metrics(Win Shares) Lydon and White were the 10th and 12th best players in the ACC.

Even if Thompson/Battle produce to that level, do we have anyone that can produce as good as newcomers like they were last year?

Gillon was inconsistent, but he's still better than Frank. He was also pretty good in ACC play once he assumed the starting role. Do we have anyone as good as Gillon? No.

I'm with you on the defense. It could be better, but we also are going to be worse at the things we were good at this year with the way the roster is constructed.

 

[HOFCeluck]

The narrative for the season was all about how we were a tournament team after Gillon replaced Howard in the lineup.

But now apparently Gillon was better for just a few ACC games.

 

[Brooky03]

Apparently, the entire season if those are your player assessments. And while I fully understand how frustrating the season was, I think you're letting said frustration color your perspective on the players.

So Gillon was not crappy 95% of the time? Lydon didn't lay egg after egg after egg in ACC play? Roberson played basketball for a couple minutes here or there?

 

[Cusefan0307]

So Gillon was not crappy 95% of the time? Lydon didn't lay egg after egg after egg in ACC play? Roberson played basketball for a couple minutes here or there?

Where do you get this stuff from? Gillon and Lydon's numbers were better in conference play than out of conference play. We needed everyone to play better in November and December.

 

[Brooky03]

The narrative for the season was all about how we were a tournament team after Gillon replaced Howard in the lineup.

But now apparently Gillon was better for just a few ACC games.

He would show flashes, then regress, then show flashes, then regress. During the season, I thought he was the answer, too. Looking back on the season with some perspective, he was downright bad in all but a handful of ACC games. The stats back this up.