other than Battle...

[HOFCeluck]

He would show flashes, then regress, then show flashes, then regress. During the season, I thought he was the answer, too. Looking back on the season with some perspective, he was downright bad in all but a handful of ACC games. The stats back this up.

Even if that was true, we have no one who can replace what he brought. Washington's not going to be that guy next year, LOL at Frank, and Ayala has to learn the position IF he comes.

 

[Alsacs]

Losing White offensively is a bigger loss than Lydon.
Lydon is a bigger loss defensively because he rebounded and did dirty work.

White made a ton of ISO hero shots.
With how pathetic our offense has become that is a big loss.
Lydon hurts because he was active on offense and wasn't given the Ball in the post and was our best rebounder.

 

[RF2044]

So Gillon was not crappy 95% of the time? Lydon didn't lay egg after egg after egg in ACC play? Roberson played basketball for a couple minutes here or there?

No, Gillon wasn't crappy 95% of the time.

Lydon did not lay egg after egg in ACC play.

Those are exaggerations with zero basis in fact.

Gillon was inconsistent. Lydon wasn't as assertive as most of us would have liked. That doesn't mean that they came anywhere close to approaching the level of poor play that you are dismissing it as. Perspective, brutha.

 

[Brooky03]

Where do you get this stuff from? Gillon and Lydon's numbers were better in conference play than out of conference play. We needed everyone to play better in November and December.

Check your per 40 stats again, sir. Lydon was slightly worse in conference play than non-conference play in terms of points and rebounds. 3 point shooting % dipped and FG% increased. That's not the point, though. The point is that we're touting him as some kind of superstar when his performance last season would typically peg him as the 3rd best player on most Syracuse teams in the last few decades.

Gillon did get better in conference play because he started playing more. He still had atrocious games, though. The game winners might offset all the atrocious performances, but since we're talking about replacing production, we have to look at averages. Per 40, Gillon put up 14 points and 7 assists on 10 FG attempts. For perspective, the PG everybody considers to be the worst thing to ever happen in history, Frank Howard, put up 10 and 9 on 10 FG attempts.

 

[Brooky03]

No, Gillon wasn't crappy 95% of the time.

Lydon did not lay egg after egg in ACC play.

Those are exaggerations with zero basis in fact.

Gillon was inconsistent. Lydon wasn't as assertive as most of us would have liked. That doesn't mean that they came anywhere close to approaching the level of poor play that you are dismissing it as. Perspective, brutha.

92%?

One egg, good game, good game, egg?

Neither can be replaced?

 

[RF2044]

92%?

One egg, good game, good game, egg?

Neither can be replaced?

Not even close to 92%. And the fact that you believe that says a lot about how off-kilter your perspective is.

Also, nobody is saying that they are irreplaceable. But with the personnel on hand, maybe. Right now we have ZERO players with the skill set to play SF offensively lined up for next year's roster. So ask your question a little bit differently -- who is going to replace White and his outside shooting production? Who's going to replace Gillon at lead guard, where again none of the players seem suited to do so?

At the end of the day, this was an NIT team due to their defensive shortcomings, and getting off to such a poor start. One more win would have gotten them into the NCAA tournament, and dispelled a lot of this negativity about the player's capabilities.

 

[Brooky03]

Not even close to 92%. And the fact that you believe that says a lot about how off-kilter your perspective is.

Also, nobody is saying that they are irreplaceable. But with the personnel on hand, maybe. Right now we have ZERO players with the skill set to play SF offensively lined up for next year's roster. So ask your question a little bit differently -- who is going to replace White and his outside shooting production? Who's going to replace Gillon at lead guard, where again none of the players seem suited to do so?

At the end of the day, this was an NIT team due to their defensive shortcomings, and getting off to such a poor start. One more win would have gotten them into the NCAA tournament, and dispelled a lot of this negativity about the player's capabilities.

Fine, 85%. Final offer.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Check your per 40 stats again, sir. Lydon was slightly worse in conference play than non-conference play in terms of points and rebounds. 3 point shooting % dipped and FG% increased. That's not the point, though. The point is that we're touting him as some kind of superstar when his performance last season would typically peg him as the 3rd best player on most Syracuse teams in the last few decades.

Gillon did get better in conference play because he started playing more. He still had atrocious games, though. The game winners might offset all the atrocious performances, but since we're talking about replacing production, we have to look at averages. Per 40, Gillon put up 14 points and 7 assists on 10 FG attempts. For perspective, the PG everybody considers to be the worst thing to ever happen in history, Frank Howard, put up 10 and 9 on 10 FG attempts.

You're undervaluing Lydon a lot. I'm looking at advanced metrics and he grabbed 20% of defensive boards in conference play and finished in the conference 10th in win shares.

Gillon was ten times better than Frank. We didn't win a game against a major conference opponent when Frank started. Frank accumulated all those stats you brought up against the Colgates and Cornells.

 

[RF2044]

Fine, 85%. Final offer.

perspective is a good thing. Right now, you lack it with respective Gillon, White, and Lydon.

 

[RF2044]

Check your per 40 stats again, sir. Lydon was slightly worse in conference play than non-conference play in terms of points and rebounds. 3 point shooting % dipped and FG% increased. That's not the point, though. The point is that we're touting him as some kind of superstar when his performance last season would typically peg him as the 3rd best player on most Syracuse teams in the last few decades.

Gillon did get better in conference play because he started playing more. He still had atrocious games, though. The game winners might offset all the atrocious performances, but since we're talking about replacing production, we have to look at averages. Per 40, Gillon put up 14 points and 7 assists on 10 FG attempts. For perspective, the PG everybody considers to be the worst thing to ever happen in history, Frank Howard, put up 10 and 9 on 10 FG attempts.

Frank Howard did that against a bunch of creampuffs. Gillon did it in the ACC.

 

[Cusefan0307]

We need Moyer and Brissett to play like one and done's if we are going to be good right now the way the roster is contructed.

 

[Brooky03]

Not even close to 92%. And the fact that you believe that says a lot about how off-kilter your perspective is.

Also, nobody is saying that they are irreplaceable. But with the personnel on hand, maybe. Right now we have ZERO players with the skill set to play SF offensively lined up for next year's roster. So ask your question a little bit differently -- who is going to replace White and his outside shooting production? Who's going to replace Gillon at lead guard, where again none of the players seem suited to do so?

At the end of the day, this was an NIT team due to their defensive shortcomings, and getting off to such a poor start. One more win would have gotten them into the NCAA tournament, and dispelled a lot of this negativity about the player's capabilities.

Howard and Washington will combine to be at least as good as Gillon. Everybody's remembering good Gillon, they're forgetting how bad bad Gillon was. These two won't explode for 40 in a game, but largely because we won't play that god awful coach again. If Ayala comes, then we're guaranteed to be better at PG, obviously.

SF is a problem on offense, which I've admitted a few times in this thread. White is tough to replace; he was perhaps the best 3 point shooter to ever wear orange. He was not good for most of the season on defense or on the boards. He mostly hung out at the 3 point line and lit teams up. Cool, I'll miss him. We're going to have to make up his production in the aggregate and we're obviously going to be much more of a rim attacking team this season than last. His ballhandling wasn't good, so we're not losing a ballhandler.

TT could easily outpace Lydon's production on offense and on the boards. Easilyyyyyyy. He will probably be terrible on defense, though. That's a bummer.

We will actually have a real life Center on this season's team. We might even have two! A Center, guys!!!! I think this is being gigantically overlooked. I don't care if all they can do is block, rebound, dunk, that's all we need.

 

[RF2044]

Howard and Washington will combine to be at least as good as Gillon. Everybody's remembering good Gillon, they're forgetting how bad bad Gillon was. These two won't explode for 40 in a game, but largely because we won't play that god awful coach again. If Ayala comes, then we're guaranteed to be better at PG, obviously.

SF is a problem on offense, which I've admitted a few times in this thread. White is tough to replace; he was perhaps the best 3 point shooter to ever wear orange. He was not good for most of the season on defense or on the boards. He mostly hung out at the 3 point line and lit teams up. Cool, I'll miss him. We're going to have to make up his production in the aggregate and we're obviously going to be much more of a rim attacking team this season than last. His ballhandling wasn't good, so we're not losing a ballhandler.

TT could easily outpace Lydon's production on offense and on the boards. Easilyyyyyyy. He will probably be terrible on defense, though. That's a bummer.

We will actually have a real life Center on this season's team. We might even have two! A Center, guys!!!! I think this is being gigantically overlooked. I don't care if all they can do is block, rebound, dunk, that's all we need.

If y0u honestly believe one thing in your first paragraph, this is a pointless discussion. I'm out.

Have a good day, Brooky03.

 

[Brooky03]

We need Moyer and Brissett to play like one and done's if we are going to be good right now the way the roster is contructed.

Why?

Battle will likely average 17+ per game and TT will be on his heels probably around 15+ per game. Why do Brisset and Moyer have to be 'the guys'? Battle is almost definitely a lotto pick and TT looks like a first rounder, potential lotto pick.

 

[Brooky03]

If y0u honestly believe one thing in your first paragraph, this is a pointless discussion. I'm out.

Have a good day, Brooky03.

We should make a bet.

 

[Alsacs]

Howard will not be Gillon next year.

Gillon was hit or miss this year.
However he could hit shots. That is what separated him from Howard.
Howard couldn't help us by shooting and spacing the floor.

Howard's offense was a major problem. Gillon wasn't consistent but if JB didn't bench Howard after the BC game we go 4-14.

Howard was killing us. I don't see him getting better and that is why JB putting next season on Frank being successful consider me bearish on our chances next year.

 

[721Comstock]

He would show flashes, then regress, then show flashes, then regress. During the season, I thought he was the answer, too. Looking back on the season with some perspective, he was downright bad in all but a handful of ACC games. The stats back this up.

If only ALL of our PG's the past few seasons showed flashes like that.

8 & 11 in win over The U
20 & 11 in win over Pitt
6 & 6 in win over UVA (6 assists is very solid)
21 & 11 in win over FSU
43 & 9 in win at NC State
13 & 8 in win at Clemson
20 & 4 in loss at Pitt (very strong effort in a loss)
26 & 6 in win over Duke
10 & 10 in win over GaTech

We literally don't win ANY OF THOSE GAMES if Frank Howard got those minutes.
He also set a new school record for consecutive made FT's - you think Frankie hits even half of those??
Frank went 62% from the line this year, an improvement on his 50% from the year prior.


Yes, he had quite a few clunkers too, and we likely lost some of those games due to his poor play in them.
But we probably woulda lost them anyway if Frankie was the PG in those.

Being good to great in 8 wins (out of 10) in 18 games = much better than "he sucked 95% of the time"

 

[two3zone]

So we're losing a lot from a bad team. That's usually a good thing. If you return a lot from a bad team, that's a bad thing.

Addition by subtraction, brother. White could score, couldn't play D. Gillon had 3 or 4 good-ish games, hurt us in practically all others. Coleman had zero knees. Lydon was good on both ends of the court but far from irreplaceable. Robey checked out early in the season.

I don't see any one of those guys and think to myself, "oh darn, how are we going to replace all of that awesome production." Will we shoot as well as we did last season? No. Will we be as efficient on offense as last season? Highly unlikely. Will our defense be much much better than last season? Probably. Last season's defense was the worst in the history of Syracuse basketball, so we can only get better.

I've learned over the course of my years that when you say "It can't be any worse", it can get worse. We're still losing Lydon from the zone who was pretty good in it, who coming in has played this defense? Nobody knows how these new guys are going to fair on the defensive end and more often than not, freshman and first year players are not great in the zone, we've seen it over and over and over, I don't know what is different about this class. Even if the defense slightly improves you're still missing out on production from Gillon, Lydon, White, DC, and Roberson this year. Two of the three offered nothing, but the other three offered a lot. People were saying we wouldn't feel the losses of Cooney and G last year when I mentioned that, we really felt it and felt it bad. I'd be shocked if this team is able to be .500 as it sits now.

 

[HOFCeluck]

We should make a bet.

For what it's worth everyone would rather you be right.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Why?

Battle will likely average 17+ per game and TT will be on his heels probably around 15+ per game. Why do Brisset and Moyer have to be 'the guys'? Battle is almost definitely a lotto pick and TT looks like a first rounder, potential lotto pick.

I'm not putting that much pressure on them. I think Battle will be a first rounder and average 15-17. He's trending late first round now. I'm not going to guarantee he's a lottery pick if he's trending there now. I think TT can average 14-16. That replaces Lydon/White, but we still don't have a PG and we still don't have newcomers that are projected to be as good as TT/Battle.

 

[Brooky03]

If only ALL of our PG's the past few seasons showed flashes like that.

8 & 11 in win over The U
20 & 11 in win over Pitt
6 & 6 in win over UVA (6 assists is very solid)
21 & 11 in win over FSU
43 & 9 in win at NC State
13 & 8 in win at Clemson
20 & 4 in loss at Pitt (very strong effort in a loss)
26 & 6 in win over Duke
10 & 10 in win over GaTech

We literally don't win ANY OF THOSE GAMES if Frank Howard got those minutes.
He also set a new school record for consecutive made FT's - you think Frankie hits even half of those??
Frank went 62% from the line this year, an improvement on his 50% from the year prior.


Yes, he had quite a few clunkers too, and we likely lost some of those games due to his poor play in them.
But we probably woulda lost them anyway if Frankie was the PG in those.

Being good to great in 8 wins (out of 10) in 18 games = much better "he sucked 95% of the time"

The NC State game was awesome. But he was helped by the fact that they kept going under screens on a 40% 3 point shooter. The Duke game was good; we've had lots of PGs put up similar games against good competition. The other 'good' games are pedestrian when you consider the competition level. Pitt was horrendous and had zero guards on their roster. Clemson was run-of-the-mill.

 

[721Comstock]

The NC State game was awesome. But he was helped by the fact that they kept going under screens on a 40% 3 point shooter. The Duke game was good; we've had lots of PGs put up similar games against good competition. The other 'good' games are pedestrian when you consider the competition level. Pitt was horrendous and had zero guards on their roster. Clemson was run-of-the-mill.

Welcome to my Ignore list. You've earned it.

 

[Brooky03]

I'm not putting that much pressure on them. I think Battle will be a first rounder and average 15-17. He's trending late first round now. I'm not going to guarantee he's a lottery pick if he's trending there now. I think TT can average 14-16. That replaces Lydon/White, but we still don't have a PG and we still don't have newcomers that are projected to be as good as TT/Battle.

Then you're undervaluing Brisset and Moyer more than I thought. These are two highly rated recruits. These are not bottom of the barrel guys that we picked as plan C.

 

[two3zone]

We should make a bet.

The bet is that the per 40 averages of FH and HW are better than Gillon? Or if Ayala comes here he'll be better than Gillon was?

What's the bet? You name the price and mark me down.

 

[two3zone]

Then you're undervaluing Brisset and Moyer more than I thought. These are two highly rated recruits. These are not bottom of the barrel guys that we picked as plan C.

Where were Brissett* and Moyer highly rated? Last I saw Moyer was rated 75th or around there, Brissett in the 50s. Ayala i think is in the 80s.

These guys aren't Battle and Malichi, we can hope for them to be a Lydon but that doesn't happen more times that it does.